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KC Cameron
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Stuck on it? I wish it a dead thread. I am just responding to you. I never said it was more than a "reality" show, but reality shows are often scripted and do have retakes. I don't think NPH needs 6 retakes as you do. For you not finding NPH offensive ( in this episode) . . . well that tells more about you, just as it tells much about me.
magicbymccauley
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KC, you are doing something in Philosophy called "Moving the Goalposts". You set out one criteria for something you accept and when that criteria is met, you raise the bar continually in order to make it so that the condition can never be satisfied.

>Can anyone shed some light on why NPH is a good "Face of Magic" other than he is a celebrity?

I gave you several reasons. All of which demonstrated his skills as a magician, his longtime affiliation with magic and magic organizations, and his consistent efforts to promote magic at EVERY chance he gets. He even had his character on a SITCOM be a magician, for God's sake!!!To which you responded:

>In giving me his "magic resume", the vast majority does satisfy me at all.

Yes, because you'd be unsatisfied with any amount of evidence. You're moving the goalposts. No matter the achievements or evidence it's not going to be enough for you. Jay Leslie remembers him coming to castle swap meets when he was 10 years old, which means he was a member of the Magic Castle for many many years. His first appearance on Letterman he did mentalism. He was bout 12 then! This is someone who's been doing magic (ON TELEVISION!) for decades and has tirelessly been a crusader for the cause and a member of the Magic Castle for years.

HAVE YOU been doing magic on tv since you were 12?

I don't think you're going to be satisfied with any amount of credentials for NPH. You simply don't like him because you're hung up on some pedantic detail about the historicity of a fish tank.

There is likely no one else as qualified to be the President of the Magic Castle as him. Along with being a true believer, a member for years, performing magic on tv while a teenager, hosting magic awards shows, performing closeup in all his tv apperances (quite well), being a huge celebrity with huge financial resources....

I mean... what the heck do you want man? Do you want him to tattoo a wand on his forehead and do 84 perfect faro shuffles?

He's the man, and everyone seems to know it but you.
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven
dave_matkin
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Quote:
On 2012-09-23 00:03, Sam Sandler wrote:

as for the houdini tank what is the problem. it combines two of his greatest creations and truly looks great as a monument to remember the most famous magician in Magic.



And those 2 creations would be what? I can only think of 1 in the picture I saw. But I could be wrong. There are people on here who know a lot more about Houdini than I do.
KC Cameron
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Magicbymccauley

Chris, I know you like to consider yourself a philosopher . . . but I actually have a degree in it. I would welcome someone pointing out inconsistencies in my logic (I am sure there are inconsistencies), but I am afraid you are not the right person. If you knew anything about logic, you would know that you can't argue questions. I never said he shouldn't be president, I asked why. This isn't an argument at all, and your statement about raising goal posts is invalid. Logic is about statements. If I said "NPH is a lousy magician BECAUSE he didn't know Houdini didn't wear a straitjacket in a Water Torture Cell.. (and I am not) THEN you could argue this. If you felt I implied it, you could argue it - but you failed to do this. This does not mean NPH is a poor choice, it means you failed to influence me. You could have possibly by elaboration on the Louie Award, which I asked, but you ignored that. The only conclusion I can make from you is it wasn't as significant as it sounds. Even then, being a performing magician is not a reason to be president or you could be president. Being on TV is no reason either.

Please understand my questions came about from seeing him on this one episode. I am not a fan of the type of comedy he is involved in (I am not making a judgment, here, I imagine it is mostly due to my age). In this one episode I found him quite lacking for the position IN MY OPINION. You can't argue opinions, questions or feelings, they are subjective.

If you were going to frame my questions as an argument (which it is not) it would be: A person who does not know their magical history, is constantly condescending and appears a to be a bit weak in the head should not be the president of the Castle. NPH is this, so he should not be president of the Castle. Now you can attack the premise: a person who does not know their magical history, is constantly condescending and appears a to be a bit weak in the head should not be the president of the Castle, or you can attack my conclusion that NPH is this (taken from a very small pool of data 1 episode). You have done neither. Cliff did. He stated that NPH is a nice guy in person, which weaken my premise. AN argument that not knowing about Houdini is not a big deal when it comes to being president which further erodes my premise, or you could say that NPH knew, but circumstances prevailed which woulds also have a negative effect on the argument. This is the type of thing that makes up logic. The problems are 1) I did not make that argument - I simply questioned, and 2) you failed to address it.


I believe you are a tad short of a full deck. . . I have nothing against NPH. I don't think he is a bad person, a bad actor or a bad magician - I don't have enough information to draw a conclusion. I just don't see him in the position he holds, and that is a rather subjective, and from what Cliff wrote, he is much better than I first assumed. I don't think you gave any reasons (except the one you misspelled) for him to be president. This doesn't mean he shouldn't - it ain't my decision. Cliff actually gave some solid reasons, and I respect that. You're acting a little love-sick. I mean, some of your reasons are really out-there.

Anyway, If you could compose yourself like Cliff I would probably take you seriously.

I really don't care to be proven he should be in the position he is in anymore, so don't waste your time - OK? Take another response if you must, but understand I am not reading it - not as a slight to you, or for heaven's sake NPH, but because this is tiring and by this time I don't think I will get a better answer than Cliff's, which was fine -as I stated. If you want to feel like you won - then go ahead and believe it. It was never a win-lose situation anyway.

BTW other people see it the same way as I do, they just don't want to post on this thread because of the likes of you. Oh, and learn how logic (as in philosophy or math) works.
dave_matkin
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Smile


:)
Ian McColl
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I agree Dave.
well worded KC Cameron, I just wished I'd seen the show.
Kondini
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See even our Prime Minister has this idiot banged to rights. I shall def vote Conservative next time.
Steve_Mollett
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I like philosophers--real ones like the ones I studied under at the university. Tip of the hat to KC.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Cliffg37
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Are we up to three or four threads on the "all tied up" forum now that having nothing to do with escapes?
Magic is like Science,
Both are fun if you do it right!
Steve_Mollett
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Well, yeah...but at least things are active. We are often so quiet.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
dave_matkin
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I think this one has digressed to Philosophy (or has it?) ...... But it is about Houdini - sort of.
Sam Sandler
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Dave the two effects that I am referring too and that NPH decided to combine were his straight jacket escape and his chinese water torture escape.
its a great idea and a wonderful tribute to houdini.

as for the whole NPH being president wow I am just not getting how KC feels he is not fit to be pres after watching him guest appearance on a reality show.

the two guys from tanked played the role of misfits and not too bright kind of guys coming into an exclusive private club. NPH played the role of...well President of that club.

I wonder if NPH is the one that got them to build the tank and do an episode featuring the castle. hmm seems like he did another good job getting the castle some free publicity!

just my take on it.
sam
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magicbymccauley
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>Chris, I know you like to consider yourself a philosopher . . . but I actually have a degree >in it.

I do too. So... okay.

>I would welcome someone pointing out inconsistencies in my logic (I am sure there are ??>inconsistencies), but I am afraid you are not the right person.

Doesn't have anything to do with my person. Just has to do with logic, and fallacies, that's all. It seems people here aren't that interested in talking about philosophy, or what fallacy I'm talking about. You can see the wiki here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalpost

Specifically the thing which was illogical about your argument is the conflating of two different arguments which have different criteria.

A. No one can show me evidence for X.
B. Here is evidence for X.
A. I also require, along with evidence for X, evidence also for Y as well, which is what I was saying all along.

The illogic of this is that the person is claiming that their argument in the second portion is the SAME as in the first portion. In reality they are two distinct arguments with two distinct goals. (Hence the term "moving the goalposts")

You first argument was "Can someone give my any reason why he should be president other than his fame?"

Your second argument was "I've seen those reasons, but I didn't think his magic was that good."

These are two different arguments, the first one merely asks for evidence outside of fame. The second requires that he meet your personal standards for being a magician. Those are two different sets of criteria, and claiming they are both identical is fallacious and illogical.

You must first admit that you were incorrect in the first argument (are there other reasons besides fame), before we can proceed to your second, more subjective argument (does he meet my personal subjective standards).

That was the illogical fallacy I was talking about that you committed. That's all.
______________________________________________________________________________________________


>If you knew anything about logic, you would know that you can't argue questions. I never said >he shouldn't be president, I asked why.

Fair enough. I was talking not about that statement, but the one where you asked for evidence other than fame.


>Even then, being a performing magician is not a reason to be president or you could be >president.
You are confusing "a reason" with "the deciding factor." No, it's not the deciding factor, or I would be president, as you say. But yes it is a reason (other than his fame). Would you prefer a magician or non-magician to be president. Obviously a magician. So it IS another reason besides being famous.

>Being on TV is no reason either.

Being on TV is a very important reason, specifically if he's going to be the face of magic. And being on TV and performing magic consistently on TV in order to promote it as an art form is a VERY COMPELLING reason to choose him as president.

>Please understand my questions came about from seeing him on this one episode. I am not a fan >of the type of comedy he is involved in (I am not making a judgment, here, I imagine it is >mostly due to my age). In this one episode I found him quite lacking for the position IN MY >OPINION. You can't argue opinions, questions or feelings, they are subjective.

Agreed. You may not like his performing style, or his script. You may think his attitude doesn't become magic. That's fine. But that's not the part of the argument I was saying was illogical.


>If you were going to frame my questions as an argument (which it is not) it would be: A person >who does not know their magical history, is constantly condescending and appears a to be a bit >weak in the head should not be the president of the Castle.

Again, moving the goalposts. You have made many arguments. You need to decide on an argument and stick to it. Some of your arguments are true and some are false. Some are subjective and some are indeterminate. The claim that fame was the only reason to be president I have demonstrated as false.

As far as your other arguments go, I would categorize them like this:

1. Magical history: He may know perfectly well that Houdini never escaped in a straightjacket from a tank, and is doing that for promotional purposes. You need a better sample size than one factoid.

2. Condescending. NPH often plays characters with attitude or who are a "nemesis" sort of character. He considers it a departure since his image is so wholesome (doogie houser idealist). He has a show called "Dr. Horrible" where he plays an evil mastermind. So his appearance on tv shows may or may not reflect his true personality.

3. "Weak in the Head" I don't know what you mean by this. Are you a Psychologist that is prepared to diagnose him? I think this is more of an insult than an argument.


>or you can attack my conclusion that NPH is this (taken from a very small pool of data 1 >episode). You have done neither.

I was only concerned with that one point.




>I believe you are a tad short of a full deck. . .

Again, are you a licensed Psychologist who is diagnosing me?


>I have nothing against NPH. I don't think he is a bad person, a bad actor or a bad magician - >I don't have enough information to draw a conclusion. I just don't see him in the position he >holds, and that is a rather subjective, and from what Cliff wrote, he is much better than I >first assumed. I don't think you gave any reasons (except the one you misspelled) for him to >be president. This doesn't mean he shouldn't - it ain't my decision. Cliff actually gave some >solid reasons, and I respect that. You're acting a little love-sick. I mean, some of your >reasons are really out-there.

KC, the guy has been a magician since he was a kid. Performing magic on tv is very difficult. Many have tried and failed badly and he always puts on a good performance. He promotes it as a hobby and art on many popular TV shows. He's been a longstanding member of the Magic Castle. He wanted his character in his TV show to be a magician. Actually asked the writers to change that so as to promote it. He has won magic awards, is a magic collector, and has been a member of the Magic Castle since he was young, has hosted Magic Award shows, and is a major Celebrity, which is capital he can use to further promote magic. He also has a clean cut image and hasn't been involved in any Hollywood scandals (unlike most celebrities).


>BTW other people see it the same way as I do, they just don't want to post on this thread >because of the likes of you. Oh, and learn how logic (as in philosophy or math) works.

You seem very angry that I'm telling you you're wrong. I don't understand why that is. Usually people with a philosophy degree are told they are wrong by professors all the time and the shock and personal umbrage ceases to be that big a deal.

We can disagree and still be friends you know. And I don't think I'm some big monster to be feared. I guess people freak out in magic when people disagree with them or tell them they are wrong. Then everyone is just a sycophant and never wants disagreement and that holds the art back. I encourage you to disagree with me and tell me I'm wrong whenever you want to. It doesn't have to be personal like that.
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
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dave_matkin
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Sam....

I thought that you were referring to the SJ, however, I am pretty sure that plenty of people were doing the SJ before Houdini - if I remember correctly his brother was one of them?

Not that he didn't make it more well known. But being known for something does not necessarily make you the originator.
Sam Sandler
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Let me put it this way: have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
-Yes.
-Morons.
-Really! In that case, I challenge you to a battle of wits.
-For the princess? To the death? I accept!
-Good, then pour the wine...Inhale this, but do not touch.
-I smell nothing
-What you do not smell is iocane powder. It is odorless, tasteless, dissolves instantly in liquid and is among the most deadly poisons known to man.
-Hmm
-All riight: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink and who is right and who is dead.
-But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine it from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own cup or his enemies. Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet because he would know that only a great fool would reach or what he is given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known that I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
-You've made your decision then?
-Not remotely! Because Iocane comes from Australia. As everyone knows, Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me. So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
-Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
-Wait 'til I get going! Where was I?
-Australia.
-And you must have suspected that I would have known the poison's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me!
-You're just stalling now.
-You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means that you're exceptionally strong...so you could have put the poison in your own cup, depending on your strength to save you, so clearly I cannot choose the wine in front of you. But you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you wouldhave put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
-You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.
-It has worked! You've given everything away! I know where the poison is!
-The make your choice.
-I will and I choose...What in the world can that be?

anybody else feel like we are watching this scene unfold on the Café LOL


dave I guess that is what I really meant Houdini did indeed take it to levels no one has seen. and to my memory I read some where that he was the first person to escape from a straight jacket in 1905.

I will have to try to find the book that I read this in or call my friends up at the houdini Museum.

sam
sam sandler- America's only full-time DEAF Illusionist
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KC Cameron
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Sam,

I got a PM about your remarks.

You're an evangelist!? Wow. You never struck me as one.

I have to really admire you, since most of the "Christians" I know are rather "non-excepting" of the life-style of NPH. Rather 18th century about it. Do you get much flack about it as an evangelist, or do you work in one of the more liberal churches? My dad was a pastor and shrink, and he could be a complete *** about it. He would have flipped if he knew about the adoption! Two of my friends were tossed out the church because of their life-style, and both had been highly respected deacons before they came out! I would think it would be hard to find work with your progressive views, and I am glad to see the church is continuing to evolve!

How do the churches where you work as an evangelist view your advertising that says that you also do casinos? Were you helping people overcome their addiction to gambling? Personally, working among all that sin would be too tempting for me - so I flee temptation.

I see you are a comic too! Well I can see that in your posts. Terribly funny! I bet your audiences are crying when they leave!

As to the straitjacket escape - No, Houdini was not the first to escape a straitjacket, but he was the first recorded to do it for entertainment. I am pretty sure most of the people here in "All Tied Up!" know that, no need to "find that book" or "call up your friends" up at the Houdini Museum . . . That's ok, when I first saw this forum I thought it was an alt-sex forum too. Boy, I'm glad I was wrong! I'm just a redneck.
KC Cameron
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Sam,

That "alt-sex" remark was just a joke - ok? No hard feelings?

KC
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KC- LOL hey well first I don't want to hijack the thread here so if after my comments people wish us to go to PM that is fine with me I am never wanting to offend or "push" my beliefs on any one. God has me planting seeds not bashing others. those that want to listen I will share those that don't I will respect that.


as for NPH I am deeply sad that he has chosen that lifestyle but to hate him or belittle him for his choice is just wrong. God loves every one even gay people. I know I know some Christians just fell on the floor with that statement! I do not approve of the life style and God is quite clear that this is not a life style HE approves of either. as for churches continuing to evolve I see it differently. I see it as churches are forgetting that GOD is real and the bible is HIS word. they are not evolving but rather walking away from GODLY principles and basically saying screw you God, we know better! and for this there will be a price to pay!

do we really know better? I mean God created the heavens and the Earth and laid out the Law and yet for some reason today believers seem to fear standing up for our beliefs in the one true God.
to many Christians are Fans of Christ, but not followers. they stand on the sidelines and cheer God on but the moment God wants them to get in the ring and help fight they fall by the wayside and back away. God did not call us to be cheerleaders he called us to be Followers!
in James 1:22 it says---But don’t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves.


as an evangelist my job is not to "save" people but to unleash the truth of Gods love and His desire to know them and love them and have a personal relationship with them thru Jesus and the Holy Spirit. and thru doing so you will have a place in heaven walking on streets of gold. This life is preparation for the next. the time on this earth will be like a blink of an eye, but we will spend forever in eternity. God is very clear about the dangers of living for the world and adopting the values, priorities and lifestyle of this world around us.

as for performing in casinos I see it more as a boost to my credentials rather then hurting me. most of the churches I perform or preach in have no issue with my performing at a casino any more then they would have a problem eating at tavern that sells beer or olive garden serves wine.
just because the enemy uses some thing for evil does not make it evil in and of itself. going to a casino is not wrong however if you let the lifestyle and addictions influence you then yes you should not be going there.

any way no worries my friend. but I still swear I read that houdini was the first to perform it. maybe it was he was the first to perform it upside down. no need to argue the point indeed. we all know houdini made it famous.

sam
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magicbymccauley
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I'm also a Christian but I disagree vehemently with Sam and what he claims God says. But at the end of the day I can still be friends with Christians who consider it a sin, and at the end of the day Sam can still be friends with Christians (or non-Christians) who disagree with him and refuses to demonize people he disagrees with (unlike some people on here).

Kudos to you Sam for differentiating between arguments and personal attacks.
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven
KC Cameron
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Sam,

Perhaps you should re-read this . . .
Quote:
No, Houdini was not the first to escape a straitjacket, but he was the first recorded to do it for entertainment.
Straitjackets were not used so much to keep dangerous mental patients from hurting others, but to keep them from hurting themselves - something some of us could use . . . Anyway, they weren't designed to be escape-proof and patients did escape from them from time to time. Houdini artfully changed the public's view of the straitjacket from a tool to protect patients to an impossible-to-escape restraint.

Personally, I know many who see the magic we do as akin to witchcraft. Their take on it is "Why PRETEND to do something the Bible so clearly forbids?" Witches were bound and thrown in ponds. If they escaped, they were a witch, if they drowned . . . oh well.

I know many that see casinos as the pits of Hell, and anything to attract people to gambling and other vices is of Satan. I'll keep you in my prayers!
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