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Cagliostro
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From my recent thread on Thoughts on Erdnase and “Expert” , it should be apparent that I do not think a great deal about The Expert at the Card Table. Just a quick recap, it has some good philosophy/psychology in the beginning of the book, some of which I agree with and some of which is completely incorrect. Erdnase is an unknown mythical figure, extensively promoted by Dai Vernon, that was certainly more likely a magician than a gambler and the moves he writes about, although extremely well described and illustrated, for the most part are not used by any knowledgeable hustlers.

I have never met a professional hustler who lent any credence to Erdnase. Many hustlers did not even know about the book and those that did thought it was rather silly. However, many magicians and academic card table aficionados and hobbyists believed in Erdnase as if he were gospel, blindly quoting him as THE authority (which he certainly is not), because they don’t have any hustling experience to question the book or know better. To question the book to some of this gentry is to challenge their incorrect belief system and greatly threaten their rigidly preconceived agenda.

In any event, at this point I am 14 – 15 years old, mastered the moves in Erdnase and other books and have been weaned on the Erdnase philosophy which was to either run up a hand or deal base and have a partner on your right cut, or if playing Single-O, put in a crimp, hold out for the cut (for a bottom deal), or do a hop. (Playing heavy and using a short deck were two of his other concepts when playing Single-O.)

Erdnase frowned on using paper, cold decks or gaffs – in his opinion that was for lesser cheats, and felt the riffle shuffle was limited in application. According to Erdnase, don’t worry about the other guy getting a good hand, just concentrate on your getting one. All of this was gospel to me at this point- just like the information on expose DVDs is gospel to some of the current crop of magician and academic card table aficionados. (By the way, many of these Erdnase concepts for the most part are incorrect when it comes to professional hustling, but I did not know that at this point in time.)

So this is my mindset. I really believed all this nonsense and then I had a revelation that changed my way of thinking about Erdnase and hustling for the rest of my life.

Remember now, I’m 14-15 years old and I’m scrounging around for anything and everything that can help me. When discussing card table manipulation with a somewhat knowledgeable magician at Tannen’s Magic shop in New York, I asked him where I could get more information on hustling and cheating at cards and dice. He suggested that I to go to the newsstand on 42nd Street and Broadway and pick up a copy of The National Police Gazette as they ran ads for all the national gambling supply houses every month. Since the newsstand was only a block away at the entrance to the subway I was going to take back to the Bronx, I picked up a copy of this magazine.

Riding the subway on my way home and leafing through the Gazette I see ads for KC Card Company, Mason and Co. and so on and I was fascinated. All of a sudden I come across an article entitled, “Confessions of a Broadway Gambler” with a picture of the author doing a one handed, one card Five Card Stud muck. I could hardly believe my eyes. One rarely if ever saw this type material in those days, and certainly not in magazines.

The author, writing under the pen name of Anthony Marrone, represented that he was a full time professional hustler from New York City who eventually got out of the racket. The article I was reading was Part One of a Seven Part Series (one article a month), and it completely changed my concept of the what professional high level hustling was all about, how it was actually done and forever changed my views on Erdnase and his concepts. In fact, Erdnase was kid stuff compared to what this gambler was writing about.

I will get into the article in my next post and touch upon the important concepts that took me far beyond Erdnase.
Cagliostro
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Okay, here I am riding home on the subway and reading this article on Confession of a Broadway Gambler. Aside from pictures of a one handed muck here is the lead in:

Quote:
Five months ago I was the best top-card man who ever clipped a rabbit on or off the Main Stem. Every day, almost, I’d get a call from a lugger (steerer) who’d boxed (lined up) a jo-jo (sucker) and wanted a train robber (card man) to make the spot (game) and take the suckers’ weight (money).

I’m a Broadway gambler. To be exact I should say: “I was a Broadway gambler.” For I’ve quit cold.

…I was at the top of my profession when I quit. I’m only 42 now. ..I’ve sat in on many a tough game. I’ve cheated with artists watching for the slightest move; I’ve been threatened by big-time hoods and cops, too; I’ve played with a gun ready. Yet I’ve never walked out on a game; I’ve never refused to play, and there isn’t a town anywhere in the United Stated I’m scared to go back to.

Purpose Is To Win

We never gamble. We know we are going to take the sucker. It is a sure and steady living, a good living for a top-card man like myself. It’s a living of expensive hotels, luxury apartments, toney night clubs and deluxe dolls. I was doing good but this is what happened that made me quit…

Okay, this is somewhat braggadocios and perhaps a little corny or over the top, but we are talking about a lead in for a magazine article in the 50s – something to get the reader’s attention. (However I must confess that as a kid I got very excited reading that.) However, even though I was a teenager, I knew there was something very different here. What I learned right away was that these hustlers had a different language, which many of you already know, but at that time none of this was in any of the books I had read to date. (Later when I got to learn the real work from working hustlers I could relate even more to this guy – the jargon, the plays, the way he thought, the con, the set-ups, the use of steerers and so on.)

As I got more and more into the articles, this guy started coming up with things that made sense. Keep in mind he was writing about a different era, the late Twenties, Thirties and Forties, which for me added to the fascination. The plays he described (the PLAYS were the KEY factor for me, not the moves), the way he used them, the psychological and physical set-ups, how they were arranged and put together, plus the people he knew and talked about … the mobsters, racket guys, bankers, corporate executives, showgirls and the glamor and excitement of Broadway and the nightclub set and so on – it all became more and more fascinating because it had the flavor of big money hustling during a fascinating era of US history.

To be sure there was no doubt some embellishment here and there, probably everything wasn’t 100% true, but there was enough solid material here to turn a light on in my head and set me on a different path from the usual “expose” material I was learning about. Keep in mind I’m learning CONCEPTS here, not moves. I already knew and could do a great many moves, this was different. The concepts and structure of a play are ALWAYS more important than any move.

He then starts to describe the type plays he was making. Here is an example of one play: A steerer sets up a game in Chicago for him with a banker and a few of the banker’s industrialist friends. The steerer represents Marrone as a rich sucker from NY who has lost a great deal of money playing poker, was looking to get even and just happens to be visiting Chicago in a few days. The suckers are the banker and some of his friends who figure Marrone for a chump and easy mark and are salivating at the thought of playing him. (The steerer is very important in arranging and setting up big plays correctly.)

Marrone arrives in Chicago and meets with both the banker (who Marrone is going to beat), and the steerer over dinner the day before the play so Marrone can solidify his image of being a loser with a lot of loose cash.

The game takes place in a plush hotel room and Marrone has a number of coolers set up previously for use in the play. He beats the banker out of $25,000 (quite a bit of money in the 1930s-40s). During the game Marrone wins $19,000 of the $25,000 and lets the other players win the remaining $6,000 so it does not look like he was the only winner. He lets the president of a nationally known company wins $3,000 of the $6,000 (because no one could accuse this guy of cheating) to take the heat off himself. The game lasts until about 5:00am so it is not a quick cheat and this also helps to allay suspicion.

As a kid, this to me was very clever because it showed me there was so much more to hustling than what I learned in Erdnase and other books. Actually the psychology, set-up, con and orchestration of the play were what made it all work and this is how many of the big plays, including casino plays, are still done. This was the type hustling I was interested in learning about. This was different from anything I had studied to date. He is using cold decks and he is not relying on running up a hand and hoping the sucker doesn’t get lucky and beat him, or that the sucker does not get a strong enough hand to play back at him. This guy was not taking chances – he’s taking dead aim!

Marrone then goes back to his childhood days and describes how he first learned about cheating at cards when he was 12 years old. He found a copy of the “Expert” in a local book store and by 13 knew all the moves in the book. I can relate to that as my experience here was almost exactly the same (same book, about the same age, same level of mastery), and as the NY Yankee catcher Yogi Berra used to say, “It was déjà vu all over again.” He did some small time hustling against the kids in the neighborhood until he met a pro, a very dapper top card man of Italian descent whom he calls Don Pasquale for the purpose of the article.

Don Pasquale (hereafter DP) was an international hustler and looked the part of a well-dressed conservative banker - a neat and polished man of the world. He became Marrone’s mentor and his first tuition was practice, practice and more practice. He would practice with 6 decks, a brand new deck, a greasy old deck and 4 decks in between. He sat in on the games with DP to learn the trade, starting off slowly and learning by being involved.

By the way, in my experience, that is how one becomes capable (capable means you can get the money under fire), by being there and doing it with someone who is a pro. Watching them, learning from them and doing what they do under fire with their guidance and feedback. In my opinion the only way be able to hustle at a high level is to be involved with people who operate at that level as they are doing it, and to do it yourself with them in the game.

(I am not considering the moral aspect of cheating people at this point of the discussion; I am simply objectively describing how it really works. The cleverness of it all intrigued me, even though I had no intentions of doing any of this at this point in my life.)

Of course there is more to the article than this and this was the first part of a seven part series, but I am touching on some of the highlights. Once again, I picked up a number of important concepts and ideas (at least six), from this article that deviated considerably from my previous understanding. (Remember, this is in the 1950s when little is known about this material. Actually there was more to come and if there is enough interest, I may write about some further exploits described in the articles.

I should mention Marrone discussed the count down and chop shuffle with DP in the article and they both decide they will only use the riffle stack. The other stuff was too well known and we are talking about moves in the late 1920s early 1930s here.

Note we are not discussing or learning about casino level hustling at this point, we are learning about private game shenanigans at a high level. Casinos come later. However, I’m getting a pretty good education as a youngster here and most of this information so far is completely outside the spectrum of the current crop of DVD exposes and books.

There is more to come if enough interest is generated and given the time to do so.
jjsanvert
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Cagliostro, your posts are just fascinating. Please go on, and thanks a lot for taking on your time to write these very precious infos.
JJS
tommy
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http://vimeo.com/6133107


In 1960's and 70's when I ran and was playing poker, sometimes every night of week, for hours on end, in private games, it was a different world, like this: The games here were commercial games, and there were many of them. They varied in many ways, in size and in procedures somewhat. The croups were, more often than not, players that were down on their luck. Rather than let a none player deal it was right to let an ex player do so, someone that had put something into game rather someone who had not. The guy running the game was often expected to play, so that the players had a chance of getting the rake money back. Big money players were enticed to play in a game by an offer to to be “put into the box”; Given a cut of the rake. Such is the hook and if you ccould get one whale into the game then he automatically attracted others with big money. The poker players were not what I call casino people. Casino's hardly provided any poker back then which is not too long ago. To play in a casino was thought of by the boys who played poker as a bad thing, casino's drained money out of the game as a whole, whereas private poker sort kept it in the family so speak. However rules are made to be broken and most of the good poker players are crazy gamblers and will gamble on anything that moves. A very few of the fellows then would fly to Vegas once a year for the WSOP, then come back and tell stories about how they sat with Stu Unger or whatever. The handful that went brought back with them Hold'em and in the 80s, well it all started to change and went casino. There are still private games of course but its nothing like it was, quite a different world back then than it is today. There was more scope, more opportunity, back then for the cardsharp come croupier working with associates and so on.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On 2012-09-23 08:30, tommy wrote:
In 1960's and 70's when I ran and was playing poker, sometimes every night of week, for hours on end, in private games, it was a different world...There are still private games of course but its nothing like it was, quite a different world back then than it is today. There was more scope, more opportunity, back then for the cardsharp come croupier working with associates and so on.

During the 60s and 70 it was certainly a different world. In some respects it still was the Wild West in Vegas and certainly things have change considerably in Vegas and many parts of the world. The only constant in the universe is change. Unfortunately, it is not always for the better and the Prohibition era in the US must have been quite extraordinary for a top card man with the right connections.

Nowadays casino card rooms are where most poker players gamble, but there are still many private games that are still set up in the US because big money professional people like to play among friends and business associates and really don’t care that much for the “professional” atmosphere of card rooms, with strangers and locals popping in and out periodically.

By the way, guys. Do any of the many “silent” readers of this "Marrone" post care to take a shot at the concepts I learned and touched upon in my first post above?
jackouille07
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Some years ago, I've read a book named "Ma vie dans la mafia" by Vincent Teresa, a french translation from "My life in the mafia".

It's a biograpĥy were he explain his life in the mafia (Oh! really!?). Somes scams are explained, richs people were hustled by many many ways including crooked gambling games. Sometimes, crooked games were organized, not to literrally take the sucker's money, but to create debt, and the sucker have to provide some services to erase his debts... (interesting if the sucker in question is a policeman, judge, governor or something like that)

And to meet your post, Tommy, the name of Yonker Joe is mentionned in the book. Vinnie Teresa say, Yonker Joe, was the best card and dice mechanics he ever met, cold decking was used to take the money. (read the book to know more)

Sorry, but my little knowledge of English does not allow me to express myself more as I would like.


Jackouille
ronfour
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Where can these articles be read?
Cagliostro
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Gentlemen,

I am getting a lot of PMs and emails from people looking to obtain copies of the Marrone articles.

I have a complete PDF set of seven articles consisting of 15 pages which cost me $20 through PayPal but I cannot supply them as I agreed not to sell or reproduce when I purchased same.

The company I dealt through was Cyber Enterprises, Inc. in Vegas and their email is cyber_enterprise@yahoo.com.

If anyone is interested, he can contact them directly and see if copies are available.

I am not a party to this transaction but I have done business with this company and they are very reputable.
poonchingyip
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Hey Cagliostro,you sure the emaill address is corrected? I just try to send an email to them, however it doesn't work.

Best regards,
- Arthur
Cagliostro
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Sorry guys. Getting old. The correct email address is cyber_enterprises@yahoo.com (plural with an "s" on the end.)
LOUIEL
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Cagliostro,


Great article,

I noticed you are looking for some great insight and knowledge on hustling.
However let me elaborate on some things and shed some light on my greatest and favourite book the Expert, and he indeed is and expert, I'll shed the light as I go along.

You first stated that Erdnase is probably only a magician and not a hustler, well let me say this I hustled and used moves in Erdnase and some techniques which Erdnase briefly talks about but doesn't elaborate or go into much detail about, Erdnase is no slouch he definitely knew MUCH MUCH MORE THAN WHAT'S IN HIS BOOK, but doesn't tip the work because it was either not his to tip or TOO GOOD TO TIP. I have hustled a lot in the past and been hustled, plus I also am a magician hobbyist by choice, it's a hobby for me, it is possible to be very knowledgeable in card table artifice and have a love for legerdemain, magic, and card tricks and be great at it too.

Let's continue...

You said you never have met a professional who lent credence to Erdnase, you now have.

Many hustlers that I have worked with don't know about any sources other than talking with other hustlers, they don't know about Erdnase, but they do know about pshycology, collusion, and many other great ruses that Erdnase touches upon, it's definitely in his book. That's respect right there.

You are correct when you say that many people think that this is the end all be all book on hustling, again there's a difference between card magicians wannabe hustlers and the real deal, many magicians I know never could work under fire, I've seen this first hand, and let me tell you these guys were very very fine card technicians far better in moves than many hustlers I know, they came to me for advice and were enlightened, they thought it was my thinking, it wasn't, it's right in his book.

You say you are 14-15 years old and I'm glad you're looking up some great information, let me just say this, you say you have mastered the moves in Erdnase? this I would love to see, plus videos on youtube showing some great techinique again doesn't make one a professional including me, but the knowledge and real work in the real world with success sure does. I perform many of the moves in Erdnase very well,, does that make me a professional? no!! but knowing when to execute these techniques under fire sure does.

Erdnase frowned on using these techniques you talked about because he felt they were unessecary, cold decks, paper.

As far as cold decking Erdnase says it's done quite openly where the players and attendants are in collusion, he is absolutely correct as I and the attendants, owners, have done this, for readers, paper, etc. he is right on target. The riffle shuffle is great but IS LIMITED, why you'll ask? I'll tell you, you see many people on youtube, videos, etc doing great riffle work, but they never show you how did they get the cards there in the first place, you cant' just put them there and riffle stack, any bumbling fool can learn to do this with enough practice, they must be culled there, Stevens cull? ya right!! There's a mythical figure for ya, I have yet to meet one who can riffle cull and stack without looking, exposing, doing a thousand shuffles then stacking look natural and get the money, it's just wont happen.

Lets look at Erdnase overhand application, cards are known at exact locations, picked up naturally, culled, no need to stack, come to the bottom, false cut if you have a partner which isn't a problem, if alone you better have a shift ready, if not I don't care who the person is, can't get the money period.

Erdnase gives details, perfect instruction on these topics, Many people don't understand that Erdnase is very clever, he'll give you enough to read sometimes partially tip the work and have you think it out for yourself. He is stating that someone who can make a deck switch is well versed and highly accomplished and does not need to do this, correct again he is, same thing goes for readers.

Anyways thank you for your great post, ask me questions on anything you want to know about Erdnase, and just like he also quotes I DO NOT KNOW IT ALL!!.

LOUIE L

GOD BLESS.
tommy
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Smile

No, Cag is not 14-15 years old.

I am a bit too busy right now to explain.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Tony45
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Quote:
On 2012-09-23 10:35, jackouille07 wrote:
Some years ago, I've read a book named "Ma vie dans la mafia" by Vincent Teresa, a french translation from "My life in the mafia".

It's a biograpĥy were he explain his life in the mafia (Oh! really!?). Somes scams are explained, richs people were hustled by many many ways including crooked gambling games. Sometimes, crooked games were organized, not to literrally take the sucker's money, but to create debt, and the sucker have to provide some services to erase his debts... (interesting if the sucker in question is a policeman, judge, governor or something like that)

And to meet your post, Tommy, the name of Yonker Joe is mentionned in the book. Vinnie Teresa say, Yonker Joe, was the best card and dice mechanics he ever met, cold decking was used to take the money. (read the book to know more)

Sorry, but my little knowledge of English does not allow me to express myself more as I would like.


Jackouille
\

This is correct, Teresa does mention Yonkers Joe in his book. Teresa was known as a big story teller so to speak, I'm being polite here but the guy did make some money. He was a con man above everything else, he made himself out to be way more important than he was.
A few guys who I know from the Boston area said to take most of what he said with a grain of salt, lol.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On 2012-09-23 14:52, tommy wrote:
:)

No, Cag is not 14-15 years old.


What??? Who??? How???

I know, I know. You are 16 years old, going on 17. Did I guess right? Smile
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[quote]On 2012-09-23 15:10, Cagliostro wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-09-23 14:52, tommy wrote:
:)

No, Cag is not 14-15 years old.


Guys, just to clarify, I wish I was 14-15 years old. However, when I was learning this stuff I started out at 13.
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Quote:
On 2012-09-23 14:40, LOUIEL wrote:
Cagliostro,

Great article,

I noticed you are looking for some great insight and knowledge on hustling.

First of all, thank you for the compliment and your offer to help me in my quest for knowledge.

Quote:
Erdnase is no slouch he definitely knew MUCH MUCH MORE THAN WHAT'S IN HIS BOOK

Okay. If you say so although it seems all magicians and demonstrators allude to knowing more that they discuss. By the way, did you know Erdnase personally? Smile

Quote:
You said you never have met a professional who lent credence to Erdnase, you now have.

Nice to meet you, sir. I can now boast I know an Erdnase professional.

Quote:
Many hustlers that I have worked with don't know about any sources other than talking with other hustlers, they don't know about Erdnase, but they do know about pshycology, collusion, and many other great ruses that Erdnase touches upon, it's definitely in his book.

Most decent hustlers know this. It is part of grift sense. Erdnase is quite basic and this is not a revelation as far as I am concerned. However, I will say that top hustlers that I know would disagree with some of this as I certainly do.

Quote:
You say you are 14-15 years old and I'm glad you're looking up some great information

No. I am not a kid. I am getting old now - 16 years old, almost 17. I’m sure when I become an adult I will know a lot more about this subject matter.

Quote:
Erdnase frowned on using these techniques you talked about because he felt they were unessecary, cold decks, paper.

At his level, he is probably right. However, it is obvious he is not a top hustler, if a hustler at all. Here he is one hundred percent wrong. The biggest plays that run into hundreds of thousands of dollars, either on the play itself or over time, both casino and private game plays, were and are made with paper, cold decks and gaffs. They are not made with overhand stacking, overhand cull shuffles, bottom deals and so forth. However, if anyone believes Erdnase is top level stuff, who am I to disagree. But I will know more about this when I am old enough to play in a casino.

Quote:
I'll tell you, you see many people on youtube, videos, etc doing great riffle work

They are amateurs and demonstrators. All they know is put some desirable cards on top and then stack. That is not the way it is done in tough games. As a matter of fact, the riffle is not really used the way most magicians and hobbyists think in tough games. Years ago the riffle stack was great, but it is getting pretty well known at this point in time. There are cleverer ways to use the riffle shuffle in fast company.

Quote:
The riffle shuffle is great but IS LIMITED

Everything is limited. The bottom deal is limited. Overhand cull shuffles are limited. Overhand stacks are limited. Depends on what and where you use it and how it is applied. Evidently you are talking about riffle stacks as used by magicians – cards on top and then stack.

I enjoyed your post and thanks for the enlightnement, but let me ask you a a few questions:

Do you play in tough high stake games with astute players and if so do you use the overhand shuffle to cull the cards?

Do you use a bottom deal in tough games with astute players for high stakes – games where real money can be played?

Do you consider yourself an amateur cheat or a top level pro?

Are you able of hustle casino games?

Are you able to appply your "moves" in professional card rooms or do you only play in very casual games?

Do you think I am referring to low stakes, low level casual games when I write my posts?

And finally, do you really think I am 15 years old?

Just curious. Cheers!
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@louiel

Cag isn't 14-15. Just pay attention to the quality and style of his English...

I can't believe you write that riffle shuffle is limited. Hire me as a permanent dealer and I'll show you how limited it is...

In case you have partners it's child's play to get 3 good cards to stack. Oh, I see your next question, what about when you are playing single-o? I'm gonna tell you how I did:

- glimpse the top card;
- block-off its cousin during the first riffle;
- (running) cut and bring them on top of each packet of the second riffle;
- stack them + crimp (a jog if you have a partner);
- let the guy on you right cut the deck, and the one on your left to deal you a pocket pair.

I've done that for years and it worked very good.

Get the cards from the muck, from your previous hand, etc. There are dozen of ways to get good cards to stack. Not to mention pre-stacks...

Marked cards and cold decks have made millions. They are big weapons. When I stack a hand for myself, I NEED one mark to have a good hand too, otherwise I can't get a big pot. And there is little you can do about that but rely on luck.

With a cold deck, you involve one or two other players and you CAN expect a big pot.

There's no way Erdnase was a hustler. The philosophy, the principle he gives? Come on! Do you need someone to tell you that, in order not to be spot, you need not to bring rhythm discrepancies? I understood that by myself, years before reading Erdnase!

Don't put more in Erdnase's book than he put himself.
cartouche7
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What mean "block-off" please?
LOUIEL
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@Cagliostro,

Sorry for the confusion with the age thing, it sounded like you were of that age with the writing, my apologies. Nice to meet you also, my pleasure, many knowledgeable people on here and that's great.

You're right, many magicians and demonstrators allude to the fact they know more than they really do, you're absolutely correct, I can only account for myself and no one else.

I did not know Erdnase personally but I can connect with him through my experiences only that's all, that's why I love this book, I'm not saying this is the end all do all book on sharping, I also love Sharps and Flats another classic which I think you touched upon also, great post btw.

As far as Erdnase being basic, what revelation are you maybe looking for?

You are right in saying that paper, marked cards, and cold decks have netted thousands I know I've done them, I love marked cards, either before play if not suspected or put in over the course of the game. Ednase touches upon them but disagress with their use, I think what Erdnase is saying besides him saying to dispense with such makeshifts is, they CAN be done, a deck switch without using sleight of hand.

In casino play of course many safety measures are put in play, and I'm safe to play there vs. the traditional home and private games I played in, high stakes to mention.

To answer your questions.

I play high stakes, I've used both overhand and riffle shuffles which I do love btw, depends on the company I'm playing with, all these players are great and astute and smart, they know about advantages but can still be tricked as Erdnase says no one is safe, I have used riffle shuffle stacks, peeks, You name it I've tried or attempted to try them, they do work but I find for me they were limited due to their time of execution, lapse of time trying to find the cards, it took too long, the overhand was safer for me and worked because the cards were set, I could just chat, talk with the players and I could shuffle with ease WHILE LOOKING AT THE PLAYERS AND CULLING,

I found with the riffle it was too studied, looking for the cards to glimpse, then stack, block off, too much work, again my opinion, and yes I was suspected of this, that's why I know about it because I've done it, I haven't also seen someone do this while conversing to stack or cull without looking at the cards, overhand I don't have to worry, again my humble opinion.

I have used the bottom deal in games, it takes great balls to do it confidently while looking at the other players and not your hands, although I prefer the duece which I think is more applicable and stronger with marked cards, my favourite.

As far as concerning am I an amateur or top level player, I don't label myself as anything, I'm a professional as what I know works and can do under fire.

Casino games I go to play at leisurely, I don't have access to go in and cheat, I don't play back rooms there, plus they have their own dealers, when we all get a chance to deal, circumstances are different in that case.

Professional rooms of course makes it more of a challenge to cheat for various reasons which we all know about, private games are different.

P.S. I don't think you're really 15 years old, and if you are congrats on your knowledge, you and everyone here I find great.

@AMcD

I'd love to see your application on the riffle shuffle technique doing your above method, this sounds great, I'd have to see this live, how long does it take you to do this? with all the glimpsing of finding the cards, just curious.

Markded cards have netted much wealth, absolutely not disputing that, I LOVE USING THEM.

Maybe Erdnase was or wasn't a hustler, we may all never know, but what I do know is that many of his philosophies, pshycology, and many other great things have worked for me, that's all I'm saying.

In terms of discrepancies, cold decking, yes he disdains their use, I get that for sure, but I look at all the things he has said that has benefited me and that's all I'm gonna say, there's many other great sources and ideas that's not in the book, that's found elsewhere for sure, all I know is his book has helped me a lot along with many things.

I'm not putting more into what's in his book, only what he includes and what he partially includes, what's great is we can take and apply what we like, don't like, everyone has an opinion and that's great.

Thank you for your post also AMcD.

Lou.
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Quote:
On 2012-09-23 21:06, LOUIEL wrote:
[...]
I'd love to see your application on the riffle shuffle technique doing your above method, this sounds great, I'd have to see this live, how long does it take you to do this? with all the glimpsing of finding the cards, just curious.
[...]

That's the kind of stuff I don't show in public. I have shown many things here but there are limits...

Besides, you make me scratching my head. You say you play high stakes games and you talk about overhand shuffles and bottom dealing??? I can't speak for everyone here, as many come from different countries, but it's maybe 15 years I haven't seen a game not using a cut card. All the games above $1,000 BI I have seen were played with a permanent dealer. I don't know where you "work", but take great care of your suckers, they might be the last ones not taking care about tough procedures in this century...
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