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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts |
Yes the games were different in circa 1902; Draw poker without a cut card is not Hold'em poker with a cut card. There was still Draw poker games without a cut card up to circa 1960s here in England in some places. Some places used a table deal. I recon most games of draw were self dealt circa 1902. Butch and the Kid and the wild bunch where still robbing trains and banks in 1902, Kid Curry got a a 20 streach in 1903 and escaped a year later, rode into town and killed a sherif, was shot and killed himself 1904. Who knows could have been one of this bunch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkzIlEhZxnE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_Cassidy%27s_Wild_Bunch
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-09-26 21:22, bishthemagish wrote: I agree with Bish on this. When one removes all the nonsense, intrigue and blind parroting bandied around among magicians about Erdnase and “Expert,” the book becomes quite excellent and practical for the magic fraternity. Even though I don’t know this for a fact, I would have to say that Vernon himself would be of the same opinion as Bish on this. Vernon was no fool and he promoted the book to magicians, for use by magicians, not as a definitive book on card cheating but as a book which taught superb moves taught in an excellent manner. Of course, Vernon may have embellished Erdnase somewhat to enhance the book and induce magicians to learn the material. Magicians love that "gambling" flavor. I learned a great deal from this book about manipulation with a gambling flavor in my early teens and in this regard it proved to be invaluable to me. I absolutely loved the book when I first started to read it. The descriptions and explanations are superb – and there certainly was nothing liked it in 1902 and for years thereafter. Later on, coupled with Card Mastery to get some of the newer and “real” work actually used at that time (1944), I cannot think of any better way to learn about this material – absolutely none. However, I should add that in order to really get good at mastery of most of this type material, one must have great passion, dedication and prepared to do a lot of hard work to master it all. |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Thanks for the added info of 1902 Tommy...
I agree Cagliostro and I also agree magicians love the gambling flavor. That is how most magicians are drawn to doing DEMO stuff. I was drawn to it. I don't think Erdanse was a card cheat. He was a player and he talks about being losing money (coned) by a short deck at one time. There are a lot of words and things in Erdanse that lead me to think he was very much like Vernon. In seeking out card cheating moves and I feel he wrote the book to sell to saloons to "spot" cheaters. And perhaps had hopes to lecture to saloons. He uses the word "performed" when he talks about the bottom deal. And it is in the bottom deal section that one would believe by reading it that it is his breakthrough move - is one of the few mistakes in the book. I feel that the mistake is there because Erdnase wanted credit for the move but did not want to tip it. Also in the section on stocking a hand - the 12 card stock. It makes a great demo however I do not think that any card cheat would stock a hand like this. I think they would have "cold decked". Getting 3 sets of 4 of a kind plus 4 aces on the bottom set. Is a little to much for real play in my opinion. I think this demo to the right person would sell the book. It makes a great demo - as it inspired me as I updated it and use it. I just posted a link to that routine in my blog. His three card monte routine is also written as more of a performance of three card monte than a guy on the street with a mob doing it. Plus if he could do all these things and they worked - including three card monte - I wonder why he wrote at the beginning of the book that he needed the money?
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts |
“Perform” in the context Erdnase uses the word there, merely means to do, to begin and carry through to completion.
Erdnase in fact is quite opposed to expose of secret oves such as the bottom deal. Even in the magic part of the book, Erdnase says this: “In this phase of card-handling, as with card-table artifice, we are of the opinion that the less the company knows about the dexterity of the performer, the better it answers his purpose. A much greater interest is taken in the tricks, and the denouement of each causes infinitely more amazement, when the entire procedure has been conducted in an ordinary manner, and quite free of ostensible cleverness at prestidigitation.” It is thus barely credible that Erdnase would be "showing off" bottoms and seconds etc to amuse the crowed.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Thanks for posting Tommy and Cagliostro. Both your points of view are great and add great info to the conversation.
Thanks again.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
I mentioned above that Vernon may very well have enhanced Erdnase and "Expert" by claiming he was a professional card cheater of renowned importance to make it more interesting to magicians and give them futher incentive to learn some of the work therein. After all, if a professional gamblers used these moves, they must be good - right?
In a similar vein, Marlo published a manuscript, complete with photos, on how to do a two handed face up stud poker bottom deal many years ago. He claimed he learned this move for a gambler named, "Don Pedro" or some such name. Marlo later wrote that he made up the story that he learned this move from a professional gambler in order to sell the manuscript. He claimed the efficacy of the move would be more believable to magicians if he said it came from the gaming tables. Alas, it seems that some magicians not only practice deception in the performance of their tricks, but they are not above deceiving each other. Has honor among thieves been replaced by "no" honor among magicians? What is this world coming to? |
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Albatros Regular user Germany 132 Posts |
Uh.... isn`t that the infamous, just invented (no need to credit me, I am not that kind of a guy) performance-overflow? If you perform too much as a magician the border betweeen truth and deception dwindles? Who knows... I cant count the times I have seen magicians exclaim "I am the only living person to do this" or "this is the single most difficult feat ever attempted". So why not brag to their pals that they are incredible hustlers, or at least intimate with those?
Best, Sven ^^
"Palming cards... Like sex, it can be learned by almost anybody,but doing it well requires some native talent and assiduous practice." (John Scarne)
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts |
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-09-27 16:06, Cagliostro wrote: As I remember the Marlo story it was when he was just starting to publish and he had no name value in magic at all. So the idea was that it would sell better if it looked like it was published by a gambler rather than a magician. I remember reading this story in the Marlo Book "seconds centers and bottoms". Marlo re-published the bottom stud deal as I remember it was. And told this story to re-claim his idea. I see it as a promo idea to sell a manuscript - re-claimed. Because both products were put out by Magic Inc in as I remember the 60's. And if I may add publishing was different back then. Few gave credit and many did not think it was at all needed to do so - as I remember. Until arguments started over who invented what - as I remember Marlo started to date his ideas when he published. However there was the added problem of credit when these older legends sessioned together. Ideas on top of ideas - and they would get into print - then often there was an argument over who invented what. As I remember those days.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
@tommy: "Remember Charlie Hooper"
Sounds like direct experience to me. C'mon tommy, are you actually Charlie Hooper? No shame to admit up to it. Are you? |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-09-28 10:19, bishthemagish wrote: Thanks for the clarification. And I though only hustlers were devious and their endeavors filled with intrigue. Wow...those magicians... |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
If I remember right in "seconds centers and bottoms" Marlo telling this story about his bottom deal that he published as a Mexican gambler. He wrote as part of his justification or re-claim that who knows, Erdnase might turn out to be a magician.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts |
In 1905 a man - name S W Erdnase - who is conceded to be the richest gambler in the world, and who now lives in retirement on a beautiful place near Los Angeles, cal, was in a talkative mood the other day and had this to say about himself.
"I, like all the young men of New Orleans who gambled professionally, went on the boats on the Mississippi River. I was there until the war broke out in 1861. Then 1 served two years in the Confederate army. After the war was over I went to St. Louis and opened a private $5,000 gambling place in the Southern Hotel building. Then I went hack to New Orleans. I was in Virginia City in the early seventies, and went from there to Chicago, then to Denver, then to Leadville, and then to San Francisco. I have played poker with all the famous players of America and faro with the Frenchmen in Paris. I played two months in the summer of 1876 at John Morrisey's place at Saratoga, and I came in contact with some men in New York and Philadelphia who were powers in the world, politically and commercially. I once had a friendly game of poker with the Russian Grand Duke Alexia in St, Louis, General Phil Sheridan, who I knew in Denver, told the Duke about me, and I was surprised one day to get a message asking me to call upon the Duke. "Up to 1883 I had the ups and downs of the general men of my profession. I was sitting at the at the funeral of a gambler, who had been rich and died poor, one day in Dallas, Tex. I looked about and saw a lot of brighter and quicker men than I. They had been well off once, and were then all broke from gambling. The thought flashed over me that I was getting like them, and would be useless and broke before I knew it. I determined that same hour not to depart from an iron clad rule to have a limit for betting and losing, and salt down one-fifth of my earnings, no matter what the inducement might be to increase the wagers. From that time I kept my resolution, and began to accumulate property. I helped Senator Tabor, of Denver, in a delicate business affair, and he gave me a tip on mining stock that has earned many thousands of dollars for me. I have not smoked or drank in twenty - five years. I have been trying to get all the sleep I can for twenty years, and that has kept me in prime condition, while nearly all my early comrades about the green table have gone to their graves. "The greatest gambling town in the United States is New Orleans, hut it is not what it was ten years ago even. If cotton ever conies up again, there maybe the old-time scenes in curds there. St. Louis is a fairly a good town for gambling. San Francisco used to be, but now horse racing and prize fights there have taken the minds and cash of the sports. Denver used to be a wonderful town for big games. There was a club of silver miners there in which $2,000 and $3,000 were at stake. I have known $7,000 and $8,000 to be in a Jack-pot there on several occasions. But the dropping out of the bottom of the silver business has ruined gambling for heavy stakes in Denver. The tin-horn fellows are as common as ever there aad in Cripple Creek. I haven't known much about gambling in New York for half a dozen years. It used to he a great poker town, hut faro never was as popular there as in New Orleans and Chicago. I ounce played with two other professionals in the Delavan House in Albany for a week or two, when the Legislature was in session and Senator Warner Miller wanted to be re-elected." "Who are the best gamblers?" "The Chinese. Then the Yankees. The English are the most absurd gamblers and they think they are wonderfully adroit. A smart Chinaman will learn more of the art of poker playing in an hour than an intelligent American can learn in days. The Chinese are natural-born bluffers and readers of human nature. I never tire of watching a Chinaman play poker against several Americans, even if it is a cheap game. If you ever wish to see something really humorous, sit and study a Chinaman who is risking his good, hard-earned cash in a jack-pot with some Americans. You will see the most stoat and indifferent face on a human being, who no doubt secretly burns with anxiety and excitement. You will see a face and eyes that I defy any one to read, even in the most exciting moments of the game. A Chinaman gives a sharp, lightning glance at the corners of bis cards. Then he puts his whole attention on the faces of his adversaries, while he assumes an expression of bland childishness. A discharge of artillery under his chair would not faze him in a poker name. I confess that I have had three of a kind bluffed out by a Chinaman with a pair of deuces or treys several times in my life.. I once sat in a game in Cheyenne with two rich Chinaman and two rich cattlemen in Wyoming, and I saw one of those Chinamen lose his whole year's earnings, about $6,000 with not a wink. The English are easy game for professional American gamblers. They take so much for granted, The English cattlemen in Texas and through the territories lost sums running all together away up in the millions, trying to cope with the Americans in poker. The f fraternity abounds in stories of the innocence of Englishmen in poker. One of the best I ever heard was told by Tom Ochiltree; Some years ago an Englishman and a Texan were going by steamer from New Orleans to New York. The days were long and both men wanted to kill time. The Englishman proposed a game of cut-throat euchre. The Texan acquiesced. 'The men played some time, when the Englishman suddenly exclaimed: "'Don't you know, my boy, I've a deuced fine poker hand! Do you know our American poker? imputed the Texan. "Certainly 1 know It,. It's a hloomin' great game" 'Well. I have a neat little poker band here, too, if I could discard a card and get a Jack," replied the Texan. "The Englishman drew down his face and smothered a chuckle as he proposed to bet the hands after the change had been made in the Texans hand. The betting began. First, the Englishman raised and then tried to look serious as the Texan added his diamond studs and his gold watch and chain to the pile on his wager. Well, my boy, you're making a bloomin' Idiot of yourself,' said the Englishman as he met the bet and planked down his elegant jewellery. The turn was called. Now see here, my boy, how foolish you are. I've four queens, don't you know,' said the Englishman. 'That's good, but I've FOUR kings,'said the Texan. 'Four kings, four kings," mused the bewildered Englishman. Then after he had studied the proposition and watched the Texan rake in a heap of money and valuables, he exclaimed: 'But, my boy, can you tell me why you wanted that infernal Jack? The biggest gambling I ever saw was in Virginia City, Nev., at the time the Bonanza ledges on the Comstock were being developed. That was along in 1872 and 1883. There are a multitude of gamblers nowadays who are incredulous of the truthful stories of the games played every night in the week for about a year from June. 1872, to July, 1873. I confess that I sometimes wonder whether I was really a participant in these golden days in gambling, or whether I have dreamed all that I recollect about them. When I was In England a few years ago I heard of some big games in Australia along in the sixties, but none compared with those we had in Virginia City. "You remember that for months the output of gold from seven mines on the Comstock yielded together £.30,000 clear profit every day. John W. Mackay, James G. Fair and James. Flood became multi-millionaires in fourteen months, while Sharon, Hobart, Ralston, Cobb, O'Brien and a dozen other men leaped from poverty to millions in the same time. Common labourers and camp cooks of a few years before had incomes, from mining stocks of $l50 and $300 a day for two years. Lots of mining labourers wwho could not read or write had bank deposits in Virginia City in those wonderful days of $10,000 and $15,000. I have seen hundreds of men in cheap red shirts and grimy overalls haul out a buckskin bag of $2,000 or so with no more heed to its value than when one produces £2 nowadays. So you see what an extraordinary field there was in the town for gambling. I never saw gambling so common and so open as in Virginia City. There were forty or fifty gambling games running there day and night. Poker was too slow and required too much thought for most of the suddenly rich men. Roulette and faro were most popular. 'The most superbly appointed gambling place I have ever seen outside of France and Austria was there. It was not so large as Morrissey's or Saratoga, or as Lynch's in New Orleans, but it must have cost thousands of dollars more than either of these. It was owned by Hiram Gentry and Dan E. Crittenden. They were both men of education, and they planned to establish a Monte Carlo there. Crittenden was a nephew of United states Senator Crittenden of Kentucky. They were backed by Senators Sharon and Nye, William C. Ralston and one or two more millionaires. They had credit at the California bank in San Francisco for $200,000. For a about a year their daily deposits averaged $8,000. The building was fratne - like all other1 in Virginia City. Downstairs there were four large rooms and upstairs there were three. One room was especially devoted to Nevada and California state officials, Senators and Congressmen. Another room was for miners and cattlemen, still another and larger room was a general gambling room for men of small stakes, who played to a $50 limit every night. There were poker, roulette and faro rooms, and connecting all these, was a most elaborate ballroom. The tables and chairs were of mahogany; The carpets were the finest that money could buy in New York.- I have seen cowboys and miners in great, rough, muddy boots, with pistols flapping on their hips and spurs at their heels, come stalking across velvet carpets there that cost $10 a yard in those days, and throw their feet on polished tables worth $100 each. The windows were of the finest French stained glass and represented Bacchanalian and Roman scenes. The bar was of solid onyx, and the floor of Italian coloured marble. The lamps were solid silver, set off by gold. Mirrors of heavy plate glass reached from floor to ceiling, and were held in place by hooks of solid silver. There were goblets of solid silver and delicate drinking vessels of glass and gold. The pyramids of cut glass decanters and decanters at the back of the the bar cost $4,000 in Paris. Then the expensive manner of running the house was probably never equalled. In the exclusive poker rooms bottles of champagne were opened at the expense of Gentry of Crittenden whenever a jack-pot was opened. I have seen a dozen bottles of champagne that cost $6 in that mining town in those days served free to an assemblage, because some one told a new funny story or a new rich vein had been struck down in the mines. The house used to reserve $3,500 a month from its profits for the entertainment of its guests. On the occasion of the visit of the Duke of Sutherland to Virginia City the bonanza firm of Mackay. Fair, Flood and O'Brien must have paid for 500 bottles of champagne drunk and poured on the carpets in one day and night at Gentry and Crittenden's house. "I have been in games of poker at the house many a time when the cheapest chip was $20. I once played for a few hours when the chips ranged from $30 up-ward, but it was too big for me to play my best. 1 was so nervous that I could not Judge my opponents as I should. Several times I saw poker games there that lasted all night, where the chips ranged from $70 to $200 each. But it would be too severe a strain on me to play at such a game. Twenty or thirty times I have known men to get up from an all-night poker game with $20,000 winnings. Winnings of $10,000 in a night or an afternoon were not uncommon at Gentry & Crittenden's. Once I heard of a gambler who went away from Virginia City with about $50,000 that he had won in two weeks. I believe he quit gambling and went into the wholesale tobacco business in Michigan on his capital. He was a very sensible man. The chances are 50 to 1 he would have gone broke if be had played there a month longer. "The biggest game I ever saw was at Gentry & Crittens den's in the summer of 1872. Lucky Baldwin, now of San Francisco; Henry M. Vance, who made a fortune with Meigs in the Andean rail road; Senator Bill Sharon and a man from St. Louis sat in a game. I withdrew when the game got too big for me. T won't play in an unlimited game with reckless millionaires and the honest man of small means who does is sure to go broke. Well, the game began at about 7 o'clock one evening. The chips were from $100 upward. It lasted until 3 in the morning. There were jack-pots started at $900 and $1,000. If the deal went around the table once there would be $2,000 and perhaps $.3,000 in the pot. Several times the deal went around twice, and there was $600 in the pot. One pot contained $12.000 when it was opened. Not a word was spoken, and the silence was oppressive. These millionaires handled thousands as common, cheap gamblers do halves and quarters. Raises of $500 were common and once saw the men raise each other $2,500. There was $18,000 in that one pot. Talk about quick thinking and concentration of the mind. Talk about lightning calculation of chances, and an instant reading of one's inmost thoughts. Champagne was served once an hour, and the playing was resumed. I saw three fives win $13,000 that night. Once I saw Senator Sharon raise Lucky Baldwin $l000 and scoop in a tidy sum of $6,000. “Take it.” was all Baldwin said to break the stillness of the room. "I can't conceive of-anything that wears the brain out sooner than such a nervous strain endured for hours. When the earliest streaks of sunlight were shooting over the Wasoe valley and were glinting the Sierras the game came to an end. "'Boys, I'd like to stay here hours longer, hut I've got to get some sleep tonight because tomorrow we're going to have a directors' meeting at the Crown Point,' said Senator Sharon. "He was then $35,000 winner, and the St Louis man was $12,000 ahead. I don't doubt that Sharon went home and slept as easy as if he had won a handful of change." THE POLICE GAZETTE, NEW YORK CITY :)
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Who wrote that and submitted that for the POLICE GAZETTE, NEW YORK CITY Tommy?
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts |
Me a bit.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I don't understand. And the reason is that SW Erdanse was said to be ES Andrews. And as far as I know when Erdnase was published. The only early advertising that I have found for the book (so far) was in the Sphinx Magazine which is of course a magician magazine.
Now that is a question - why would a gambler put an add into a magicians magazine for a book on card cheating? Or write a book about card cheating and have magic in it. I can think of several promotional reasons a magician would do this but not a gambler/ card cheat.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts |
The story is from THE POLICE GAZETTE, NEW YORK CITY 1905.
I added - name S W Erdnase - to it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Tommy, you really should get some help with this Erdnase fetish, or more accurately “severe Erdnase compulsion and groupie adulation.” You are never going to learn the real work this way.
I know that sometimes children have trouble shedding their favorite teddy bear, but at some point they must to achieve maturity. Same with Erdnase. I know it may give a warm a fussy feeling to blindly genuflect before the shrine you have of Erdnase, but at some point, painful as it may be, you have to walk away from this groupie worship. Hope this is helpful to you. (By the way, where did I put my teddy bear?) LOL |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts |
There is more to Erdnase than you will ever know.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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