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panlives Inner circle 2087 Posts |
OK, it is midnight (or somewhere close to the Witching Hour).
Donnie has been drinking from a homespun brew of magical elixir goodness, dreaming about his most supremely awesome and yet unmade Cups. He writes a "memo to self" and it says... ...?
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." "The dog did nothing in the night-time." "That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes. |
Donnie Buckley V.I.P. Cleveland, Ohio 1123 Posts |
Paul Fox Combo Cups... in Sterling Silver
That dream is achievable too - the hard part is nesting 3 x 1" balls on the saddle of a combo set. I didn't have to think about this too hard to answer that question! And that's not just because I find myself in the scenario described above so frequently... |
Tom G Inner circle 2895 Posts |
Speaking of PF cups. Is RNT2 making them with the original chucks?
Tom |
Donnie Buckley V.I.P. Cleveland, Ohio 1123 Posts |
There were at least two different PF cup styles that could be called "original". None of these original blocks are not in my possession, and it is my understanding that the original blocks that RNT once had were worn out. I don't know for sure what happen to them...
The PF cups we make are made on new steel blocks - which will last for 10's of thousands of spins. If you've handled sets of PF Danny Dew cups, you know that the PF cups we make today are the same proportions, but have slight improvements in them to allow for a three ball nest of one inch balls, and better stacking. Also, the tooling we use today is designed for .050" metals. In the past, PF Cups were spun from lighter weight .040" metals. |
Nutz4Tutz New user 54 Posts |
Yes yes yes, I would LOVE a set of PF sterlings. Those would be in my display though.
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Donnie Buckley V.I.P. Cleveland, Ohio 1123 Posts |
I asked Dr Jonathan Schweid of JES Magic to chime in on the specifics of Danny Dew PF Cups. He owns a couple of sets and is the creator of the JES Cups.
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Donnie Buckley V.I.P. Cleveland, Ohio 1123 Posts |
Nutz, the cost of silver shot up so high in the last couple of years that it's put that project on the back burner. Machinable silver is even more expensive than the melt value. Even a straight set of full size cups (non combo) is very pricey to make. It's not just the weight of the sterling silver that ends up in the finished cups, it's the amount of loss that is realized from fall off and errors. Spinning silver will drive you mad. If you crack a bead, it's a big hit to the wallet.
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Nutz4Tutz New user 54 Posts |
Ouch! I didn't know that.
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Tom G Inner circle 2895 Posts |
I do have a set of nickled original PF cups. The first set of PF cups, I bought in copper from Busby.
When I received the set of original PF's after owning the copper, I was very surprised at how light they were compared to the Busby coppers. |
Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Many moons ago, Danny Dew gave me a set of PF cups in brass, a set in copper and my favorites, a set nickle plated. And a set of Chic Cups in Copper. Like a fool, friends wanted them so I sold all but the nickle plated set.
FYI, Melba Dew, Danny's widow just joined him at age 101. R.I.P., Melba, Busby can't harm you anymore.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Donnie Buckley V.I.P. Cleveland, Ohio 1123 Posts |
Wow, may we all live to 101!
Tom, the weight difference is probably caused by the thickness (gauge) of the metal that is used to make the cups. It could be that the lighter set of cups are steel also (since they are plated), steel is lighter than copper. But it's more likely that they are just made from thinner copper. Thinner is easier to spin, but these days, my customers want cups that are thicker and heavier. The only cups we spin from the thinner gauges are the mini size and micro size cups - you have to as there is no tolerance for thicker walls. |
JESmagic New user Ann Arbor, MI 90 Posts |
I am by no means an expert on the Paul Fox Cups--but Bill Palmer is. That said, I do have several sets of original Danny Dew Paul Fox Cups--including a "Type 1" set and a several"Type II" sets, a set of Busby Paul Fox Cups, the RNT2 Paul Fox Cups, and of course several sets of JESmagic Squatty.
I have found, in my collection, that there is considerable variability in the Danny Dew Paul Fox cups. There are discernable differences between the "Type 1" Cup and the "Type 2" cup that can clearly be seen, and have been photographed in detail on Bill Palmer's website. But, more interestingly, are the differences in runs of "Type II" cups, that often can't be seen in the photographs. In fact, some of these difference can only be appreciated when handling the cups themselves, and on close inspection. I have identified a few findings in my own collection, which I will share below. Early Type II cups (from Perigee) are thin, and very light. In fact, they are so light, in comparison to cups being manufactured today, that performers who use a heavier cup probably wouldn't like using them. The bottom beads of these cups had gaps, which were not uniform. Later runs of cups from Perigee are heavier--but the shape did not really change. The insides were clean, but not polished. The saddle curve was slightly rounded--not sharp like the Johnson Products Cups. Very slight spin lines can be appreciated in the right lighting on a couple of the sets. One thing I learned when producing the Squatty Cups is that tooling is gauge specific to maintain proper proportions when the copper is spun down. The tooling Donnie is using to make the RNT2 Paul Fox cups is designed to be used with 050 copper, which is heavier. If he were to use a lighter gauge copper, like 040, the cups would not nest properly, and the beading lines would be off. When Perigee started spinning with heavier gauge copper, I'm not sure if they retooled or not to compensate for the heavier gauge of copper in later runs. At some point, reportedly in the 70's, Danny Dew had a run of 100 or so sets of cups made at Rings and Things. I have 3 of these sets. I know that these are Rings and Things sets because they have a MagiPoxy Coating so they don't tarnish. All three of these sets are slightly different from the other Type II Danny Dew Paul Fox cups in my collection that were made from Perigee. They are much more uniform, the upper saddle ridge is very sharp and smooth (more similar to the Johnson Products cup), and curve on the top has a slightly different taper. In all three sets, there is one cup that invariably "sticks" slightly when nested with the other two. This is not the case with my sets of DD Paul Fox cups made from Perigee. Ironically, when I look at my Busby Paul Fox cups, they much more closely resemble the DD Rings and Things Paul Fox cups than the earlier runs. And like the DD Rings and Things cups, one of the 3 sticks slightly when nested. This leads me to believe that the DD Rings and Things Paul Fox cups were made on different tooling than what was used at Perigee...and ultimately that it was this tooling that Busby "bought" to make his cups. As far as I know, this tooling still exists, but is cracked and cannot be used to spin any more cups. What happened to the original tooling at Perigee...I don't know. I also don't know why Danny Dew went from Perigee to Rings and Things to make the 100 sets. Perhaps someone with more knowledge than me can lend some insight. Reportedly, in 1982, Danny Dew went back to Perigee where 30 (or so) sets were made, which was the last run he had done before Busby took over. I have no idea what tooling was used for that run--perhaps the same tooling as the Rings and Things run...but who knows. When I produced the orignal JESmagic Squatty Cups, they were made off of a mismatched set of early DD Paul Fox cups. The cup used as the prototype was slightly different than the other two. There were some minor changes made to the Squatty Cup design because, at that time, Busby was still threatening anyone who made a similar style cup. It was only after I talked to Jim Sisti, that I released the Squatty Cups for sale. Nowadays, there are several Paul Fox copies--ie, Penguin, etc...which more closely resemble the original DD Paul Fox Cups. That said, telling a real DD Paul Fox cup from its copies is very easy to do--if you know what to look for. As I said, in my collection, I have enough sets to compare to--with enough variation in the sets that I can tell what is a real cup and which is a copy. As for the RNT2 Paul Fox cups, they are clearly not made from the original tooling. The shape is slightly different, the curves are slightly different than an original set of Danny Dew Paul Fox cups. Moreover, they are made out of heavier gauge copper (0.50). However, the craftsmanship is far superior. The cups are more uniform, the bottom beads are closed, they are polished far better, the plating is cleaner, they nest better.....they are, in my humble opinion, better than what Danny Dew produced. So...there's my small contribution to this discussion. As I said, Bill Palmer is the real expert. Incidentally, I learned early today that my mentor, Joe Lefler, passed away on Sunday after battling cancer. I am deeply saddened by the news....as Joe was a huge inspiration in my life--as he was to so many others. |
Donnie Buckley V.I.P. Cleveland, Ohio 1123 Posts |
Great post Jonathan, thanks a lot!
I'll never forget the stern lecture Joe gave me when I was just 25 or so about the "business" of show business. He influenced quite a lot of us, and inspired some to go for a full time career in magic. His passing is like an end of an era. |
Tom G Inner circle 2895 Posts |
Now I remember that I also had a set of the Type 1 PF cups. They were also light and you
couldn't nest 3 balls on top. I ended up selling them right away and buying the nickle PF cups. I purchased at the time of the cup frenzy when cups were going for high prices, I paid more than I should have. |
Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
JES: Great post, really informative. And, yes, Donnie's work is the best. He really understands the process and needs.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Donnie Buckley V.I.P. Cleveland, Ohio 1123 Posts |
Thanks Pete!
My grandfather used to say, "Anything worth doing is worth doing right." Like so many others, yourself included, I'm just trying to do the right thing. |
JESmagic New user Ann Arbor, MI 90 Posts |
Donnie, you definitely do it right! You've taken the production of handcrafted metal spun props to a new level. Undoubtedly, RNT2 Products have left a mark in magic history.
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Donnie Buckley V.I.P. Cleveland, Ohio 1123 Posts |
Thanks Jonathan. And thank you so much for your detailed report on the Paul Fox cups. I knew you were the right guy to ask! Bill Palmer may be our resident expert on all things cups related, and their history, but your knowledge of the PF cups is top notch.
Thanks for your contribution! |
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