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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » A Book on Master Payne's Cup and Ball Routine? (3 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Payne
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So would there be a market for this? Is it a different enough from Gazzo's and Vernons to warrant its own manuscript in the first place? Who would buy it and how much would you pay? Or should I bite the digital bullet and just go the DVD route?

Currently I'm working on a book for the Mediaeval\Renaissance performer which details the acts I've been doing for the last thirty years. Should the cups and balls be a chapter in this book or a whole separate document.

Anyone have any suggestions or comments on their poor mans poll?

For those who haven't seen this routine you can watch it here. http://vimeo.com/17200188
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
wsgumby
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Master, that is one of the most entertaining cups and balls routine I have ever seen. Very funny, and you managed to hold my attention for 16 minutes! Love the patter, love the outfit and I love those beautiful trtaditional cups. I think the routine could stand on its own as a separate book, but I would buy it in whatever form you decide to release it in.
cirrus
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Master payne,
I don't want to offend you, although it is very entertaining, I don't think it stands differently from the Vernon/Gazzo routine. The patter off course is orginally yours. I must say that you have one of the most entertaining versions of this routine (I don't even like Vernon's). Gazzo insults every single bystander during his effect (and it suits his character), your character is different from these, so your patter suits you perfectly. I love your routine, but don't consider it unique. I would make it a part of the book you are already writing.
I wouldn't dare to call it Vernon's routine anymore. You have seen and perfected it, to a much more entertaining piece.
pabloinus
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The Dvd done by Ammar retails for $26 at penguin and it is a very complete course on C&B, so with all the respect, yours can not cost me more than Ammar, and should be much less that his, Mendoza's DVD is around $30 and he has a very solid C&B routine and some other stuff.
I have seen routines sold by less known people for $40, not sure how many they sold, but personally I did not buy theirs, regardless how entertaining their were.

Personally I think that should be part of the fair book, however I am not sure how many people would buy a book on rennaisence fairs but I am sure you did your research.

I found you routine very entertaining and most likely I will pay to see you perform, not sure I would buy the routine, it is like gazzo's the personality of the perfomer makes the routine much better.

Media depends on how good you are at describing the details in writing, if you are not too detail, maybe a video is better, as far as the production of the video is good, with back and front takes, close up of the hands, etc. Ammar is good in both, Gazzo's booklet has many details, where to have the wand, where the balls, etc

I hope my comments are not too negative, but maybe I am not your target customer ( hobbist)

Good luck with your project

Pablo
Lawrence O
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Master Payne's routine is a masterpiece of scripting and a course in acting
Since the market is smaller than Michael Ammar's work on the C&Bs, contrary to my friend pabloinus, I think that Master Payne should do it in book form with a performance only DVD attached showing him performing the routine in various public situations. Then having printed less issues (owing to a smaller market), he should sell it for around 40$ (and frankly I think it is worth much more). This is the way Bob Read initially went with his penultimate cups and balls.
I don't think that Bob sold one less copy owing to the price.
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Tom Fenton
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I must agree with Lawrence.
"But there isn't a door"
Harry Murphy
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I'm in! If only to add to my collection of brilliant routines.

I believe the final price will be governed in part by the cost of putting the thing together. Lawrence has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I also believe that it could be included in the larger Renaissance Fair book AND be a stand alone booklet.
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
Mr. Woolery
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Personally, I'd like to see it in the same book with your other medieval magic. Cups and balls is so much the definitive trick of the middle ages (almost any illustration of a medieval conjurer shows him with cups and balls) that leaving this routine out of the book would be making the book incomplete.

I'd pay more for the book with this routine in it. But I'll be getting the book regardless of whether the C&B routine is there or separate.

What I would totally love is a book/DVD set that shows you performing several of your routines, even if all the explanation is in the printed volume. What I really want is to read your thinking on the tricks, not just your working. I don't do Tommy Wonder's cups and balls, but his L&L video explanation is very valuable to me because he spends most of the time talking about why he does each move, not just what he does. Your routines are so well crafted that I really want to know your thinking on each step more than I want to duplicate any particular steps.

I can't be the only one who is hoping for a big DVD set on your magic. I like books, but magic is visual, so seeing you do a trick would be great. I'm happy getting the details from a book, but getting the performance on video would be great.

-Patrick
Mr. Mystoffelees
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A very nice routine, Payne- refreshing! I would vote for a book with your Cups routine included. Sign me up for a copy...

Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
FatHatter
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Quote:
On 2012-09-30 20:08, Payne wrote:
So would there be a market for this?


Yep.

Quote:
Is it a different enough from Gazzo's and Vernons to warrant its own manuscript in the first place?


See first question.

Quote:
Who would buy it and how much would you pay?


People that want to know how you did it and whatever the market will bear. I wouldn't think $50 would be a deal breaker.

Quote:
Or should I bite the digital bullet and just go the DVD route?


Yes.



Quote:
Currently I'm working on a book for the Mediaeval\Renaissance performer which details the acts I've been doing for the last thirty years. Should the cups and balls be a chapter in this book or a whole separate document.


I'm surprised you asked this. Yes, separate document, build value.

Quote:
Anyone have any suggestions or comments on their poor mans poll?


Not at this time.
Lawrence O
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Thank you FatHatter for this detailed reply which pleases me (for whatever it's worth) because I share it and it pleases me to see that many people understand the value of Master Paynes' routine. Now, for advanced that it may be, the routine is not revolutionary in technical terms. It is however miles ahead in scripting, entertainment and acting terms. These are precisely, IMHO, where our art has deep potentials for progress in the coming decades.

Can you imagine, Kent Gunn's routine with a Master Paynes' rendition: I had the opportunity to see it when Kent performed his routine for Johnny Thompson and I in Vegas, using his natural sailor's language (an inimitable mixture of rogue and politely submissive language that only his navy years could have taught him)

I ignore Master Paynes' personal story but his speech and acting make his routine as unique as he appears to be.

That's what I'd like to be able to share: why is he looking here or there at that moment, what drives him to make that joke now... It would be no surprise if this was coming naturally to him but having the documents to be able to analyze it in details like we could do for Dai Vernon, Fred Kaps, Bob Read, David Williamson, Michael Ammar, John Mendoza... will help us to advance in the search of ourselves in the magical field.
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Mike McErlain
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I would definitely purchase your published work , Master Payne.

I love the routine!

I don't feel qualified to speculate on appropriate cost, so I'll let the experts take it from here.

Lawrence makes several excellent points.
Dale Houck
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Great routine! I'd buy it as well.
Magic is where you find it.....
ottphd
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Count me in for a signed copy too!
Jim
Chessmann
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Payne, that was just beautiful work - in every aspect. Exceptionally well done. And you must thoroughly enjoy performing it!
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
leaycraft
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Payne- let me add to the above, I would very much like to see it in print. I may also add that I am thinking of including your multiplying bottles patter adapted to me in my chemistry course. Who knew Quantum Mechanics and theory could be so magical and understood.
"It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." A. Conan Doyle," The Sign of Four"
Denis Bastible
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Great scripting . The sheer amount of productions limits who, and under what conditions, this can be performed. You either need a gibeciere or a servante.
Lawrence O
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... or some technical re-routining to be able to learn from the script slightly changing the routine. Is that impossible?
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Bapu
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Master Payne, if that really is your name...

I love your cups and balls performance at the Camlann Mediaeval Fair as shown in three parts on YouTube. I have watched it many times and have shared it with my family and friends. For me, the most important word in the previous sentence is "performance". I think that the performance character that you have developed for medieval and renaissance fair venues is absolutely terrific. It is both convincing and entertaining.

I have never watched your performance for the purpose of deconstructing it from a technical point of view. I assume the moves are standard, and well known. Perhaps I am wrong. For my money, your genius lies in your character development, scripting, and presentation. In other words, the theatrical value of what you have created and how you deliver it. As Lawrence O. pointed out above, it is a real study in scripting and acting, two areas that magicians as a group seem to be particularly weak in.

I also enjoy reading your comments in this forum as well as your articles for Genii. In other words your thoughts on presenting enjoyable short theatrical performances (magical or otherwise), your ideas concerning character development, scripting, timing and delivery of lines, your views on what is good, bad or indifferent about magic as presented today (or in the past for that matter), are all of much more interest to me than how you produce any effect technically.

So if you do write a book, I hope it is filled with the philosophy, conclusions, best practices, etc, resulting from your years of experience and thought concerning the perfection of your craft. Don't teach me how to p*lm and ball. Instead, show me how to "send it off to distant Pluto". Teach me how to tell a story, when to pause, when to cajole a bit, when to give a wink to a child. Teach me how to be a magician Master Payne, teach me how to be a magician.

Now that would be a book I would pay some serious $$$ for. Smile
Bapu practices law and conjuring in the Great Smoky Mountains of East Tennessee.
cirrus
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Quote:
On 2012-10-05 12:17, Bapu wrote:
Master Payne, if that really is your name...

I love your cups and balls performance at the Camlann Mediaeval Fair as shown in three parts on YouTube. I have watched it many times and have shared it with my family and friends. For me, the most important word in the previous sentence is "performance". I think that the performance character that you have developed for medieval and renaissance fair venues is absolutely terrific. It is both convincing and entertaining.

I have never watched your performance for the purpose of deconstructing it from a technical point of view. I assume the moves are standard, and well known. Perhaps I am wrong. For my money, your genius lies in your character development, scripting, and presentation. In other words, the theatrical value of what you have created and how you deliver it. As Lawrence O. pointed out above, it is a real study in scripting and acting, two areas that magicians as a group seem to be particularly weak in.

I also enjoy reading your comments in this forum as well as your articles for Genii. In other words your thoughts on presenting enjoyable short theatrical performances (magical or otherwise), your ideas concerning character development, scripting, timing and delivery of lines, your views on what is good, bad or indifferent about magic as presented today (or in the past for that matter), are all of much more interest to me than how you produce any effect technically.

So if you do write a book, I hope it is filled with the philosophy, conclusions, best practices, etc, resulting from your years of experience and thought concerning the perfection of your craft. Don't teach me how to p*lm and ball. Instead, show me how to "send it off to distant Pluto". Teach me how to tell a story, when to pause, when to cajole a bit, when to give a wink to a child. Teach me how to be a magician Master Payne, teach me how to be a magician.

Now that would be a book I would pay some serious $$$ for. Smile


I second this. I know the technical stuff, but I would love to learn from your experience the why not the how.
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