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Mystician
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[quote]On 2005-03-14 21:00, Daegs wrote:
Quote:
It may seem counter-intuitive, but just let go of it - the valve will automatically shut when the nozzle end snaps back, and kill the flame.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is close, but actually wrong(just barely).
What stops the flame is the quickness that you let go of it, if it snaps back with enough force,


I think I'd better get in here and clear a few things up.
Let's see ..

  • Daegs, You make a valid point of making sure the device snaps back briskly. However, if I may pick nits, why you would catagorize my response as wrong (even though barely) puzzles me. You might say there is an additional detail there that may have been lacking, but let's not overreact Smile
    Here's the thing - in order to open the valve, you have to yank on the thing pretty good; I know I have to - therefore, you've already created a good solid tension.
    When I said, "just let it go", I literally meant, just let it go, and it will snap back, with considerable force. Mine does. What ultimately kills the flame is the fact that the source of gas is cut off. Making sure it snaps back quickly, briskly, and cleanly makes sure the flame goes out immediately.
    I've haven't had a problem with it going out yet. Anyone who'se read the instructions knows how it operates, I can't imagine why anybody would ease the thing back, but then I guess that's why cereal boxes have legal disclaimers on them now like, "This box is not meant for consumption nor to be used as temporary housing construction material."
    Actually, now I'm curious. Have you tried blowing it out ? I wonder if that work ?

  • Just so there's no confusion on paisa's part,(as per my many PMs with him) I define nozzle as the part at the very end where the flame jets out, the part held in your hand; not the part that you adjust to control the amount of butane to be ignited. That part I just refer to as the valve. Paisa's itorch has the same thing as mine did when I first got it: where the nozzle tip ends at the top of the flint wheel, rather than the bottom of the wheel where the flint is struck. It seemed logical to me to move it down a quarter inch, which I did, and it ignites more reliably now for me. I suggested to paisa that he do the same if he wants. I guess if you're spewing out huge clouds of butane it won't much matter, but for smaller quicker bursts I think it makes sense.
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Daegs
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Quote:
What ultimately kills the flame is the fact that the source of gas is cut off.


I'm not trying to "be right" or argue with you, but here again you are wrong.

Every fire needs air, fuel, and an ignition(basically just anything that heats up the fuel to its combustion temp). The ignition can be a material reaching its flash point or it can be a pre-existing flame or a spark, ect.

If you just have 2 out of those 3, you won't have a fire.

So here you have an Inviso-Torch, it has fuel(gas), air and what keeps it burning is the pre-existing flame(after you have ignited it with sparks).

Simulate a snap without shutting off the valve, take an ignited Inviso Torch and wave it really fast. What happens is that the flame(due to air resistance) can't catch up to the fuel source(which is moved away). So you only have 2 parts of the thing needed to have a fire(the fuel isn't heated up to its flash point), so the flame shuts off.

Now try another expirament, take the IT and slowly retract the tube, shutting of the fuel supply. The flame withers before shutting off about 3-5 seconds later.


So what I'm saying, is that if you are like 99% of Inviso Torch users and are retracting it properly, then it is the snap that shuts off the flame by removing the heat source of the fuel, and *not* removing the fuel source.

In fact, there is still some fuel in the tube when the flame snaps off, which gets released after its retracted but because there is no heat source, it doesn't combust.


If you wanted to, you could configure the Inviso Torch so that it never shut off its fuel line... Letting it retract properly will still shut it off and it will release the rest of its fuel supply inside your jacket but with no flame.

So it is the snap, and not the fuel line being shut off that causes the flame to extinguish.
Mystician
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Well if I didn't know better, I'd say you were getting your "daegs" in ! Smile

Let me clarify, yet again, the "ultimately" statement:
Perhaps the way I should've worded it is, that the closing of the valve provides a finality to the extinguishing of the flame.
As I said in my last post, yes, if you gently ease the thing back, it won't shut off right away. I realize that. Slow down a little and read more carefully, I'm really not disagreeing with you. My main point there in my last post, actually, was simply that, due to the high tension one must maintain to open the valve in the first place, (and keep it open) the act of simply "letting it go" is sufficient to effect a brisk, rapid snap back of the device, thus extinguishing the flame. The same goes for someone who pulls a rubber-band almost to the breaking point, if one hand then simply lets go, the band will snap back with great force - no other movement is necessary other than to simply release the band from the fingers.
Now then, the flame is out, but, if the valve were not to close, eventually then, as you said, the gas would build up under your jacket - a very dangerous situation, and one that could rekindle the flame, so to speak, if another source of igition were to occur - possibly even a spark of static set off by the movement of layers of clothing, like a blazer or jacket rubbing against a shirt. Of course, one could understandably argue that this would constitute a new, totally different flame, and so make the point moot, but whatever - you get my drift - that's what I meant by "ultimately", I mean it lent it a finality, no way the flame could start again without deliberately starting the entire process over again.
No disagreements here so far, right ?

Just to be the devil's advocate though .. mauahahaaa.. Smile
What if, you know.. theoretically .. what if you're technically wrong about the wind resistance ? Have you actually tried waving your invisotorch around with a 12 inch blazing flame atop it ? Did it go out ? That's a lot of fuel being fed that flame, and like the oil well fires at the end of the first half of the Iraq war, mere wind nor sandstorms were not enough to extinguish those blazes.
What if, the act of rapidly retracting the device expels the remaining butane gas from the hose as it closes the valve ?
If this were to be the case, then the real reason the flame goes out is twofold: the source of gas is cutoff by the closing of the valve, and all of the remaining gas in the hose is forcefully expelled out by the rapid contraction of the hose - leaving nothing left to burn - and external "wind" or air resistance has nothing to do with it ?

Now if only I could do an Al Pacino impression.
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Daegs
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Hehe, intresting.

Quote:
Have you actually tried waving your invisotorch around with a 12 inch blazing flame atop it ?


Actually, yes, I have. And yes it does go out.

Intresting theory on the gas forcibly being let out, but because the width of the tube would be expanding as the length decreases, it would only be the inertia that would make the gass come out the end and it retracts... I'd say that half the tube would probably be forcefully exerted and the other half would stay in the tube.

Intresting idea though...


Also the gas jacket did give me an idea that I'm not too keen on trying out, but it would be something like 2 inviso torches letting out butane inside your jacket and then sparking both at the same time... Could provide a "flash" appearence.

Though I don't think I'll try that anytime soon, but the idea definatly could goto other things, such as letting gas spew into a container of some sort before igniting, might provide a huge burst!

Anyone know if butane is heavier or lighter than air?(I'd say lighter but who knows) and how fast it disperses? could you put it into a bowl?
Mystician
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Ah bummer, I just tried waving mine around and it went out too Smile
heh

As to your double invtorch idea, though, I think I'll just get (or build) a fism flash instead ! Smile

Butane is lighter than air, there's even some concern about it's effect on the Ozone layer. It's an alkaline hydrocarbon.
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Steve Dela
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"has anyone ever been hurt by this"

not hurt badly but got a little bit of a shock!
basically, I had the thing lit infront of me, when I went to let it go, I didn't reaslize the gas had leaked up my sleve, I let go and the whole of the inside of my sleave had a big fire ball gushing through it.

from then on I have had the flame a little bit smaller which helps the flame to cut off sooner.

I still use this effect.

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Glenn Alloway
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I have been considering buying an invisotorch for some time. However, I'm not comfortable with the fact that this thing retracts so close to my body. Not having the gimick, I'm not sure of the size. Is it something that could be vanished into an appearing cane or similiar effect? I like the idea of having a large fire from the hands, but not vanishing by my hip or sleeve. Let me know your thoughts.
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Daegs
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The physics are sound, if you let it go at even a medium speed, it moves fast enough that the air resistance won't allow the flame to follow the fuel source, *properly* used there is no danger with this great effect.
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I ocassionally use inviso torches (can't spell phoenixes Smile ) together, but only for simultaneous two flames at once.

Filling ones clothers with gas and igniting it, sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. But I have been burned badly enough (not doing magic, but as a careles inquisitive child) to have a healthy respect for the dangers involved in open fire and fabric. So it is my first hand knowledge of the pain of a severe burn that keeps me doing enoguh to wow the audience, and putting my life at risk to do it.

No applause is enough to cause me to risk serious damage. And frankly, the effect of just one unexpected blast of an inviso torch, is more than enough in most cases.

Mine has never failed to go out when released properly.

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Mystician
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Quote:
On 2005-04-11 14:12, Glenn Alloway wrote:
I have been considering buying an invisotorch for some time. However, I'm not comfortable with the fact that this thing retracts so close to my body. Not having the gimick, I'm not sure of the size. Is it something that could be vanished into an appearing cane or similiar effect? I like the idea of having a large fire from the hands, but not vanishing by my hip or sleeve. Let me know your thoughts.


It's never failed to go out on me. You needn't worry.
It won't fit inside a cane, more than likely it'll get hung up on the way in, possibly even break, which would be a problem though.
Don't try it up your sleeve for the same reason. It will fit, technically, but the issue is whether it will slide up smoothly . This is why it's best used as directed, into your coat jacket via the front.
Jim Pace knows what's he's doing when he designs these things, I have all of his fire effects currently on the market, and they're all quite safe and sound.
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rmoraleta
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I have a question.

How do you adjust the amount of flame that comes out? I mean I want a really large flame coming out.

Thanks in advance!
daz222
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I didn't think you could? I mean, isn't it big enough already? daz
Mystician
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Adjust the flame height by *turning* the valve slightly counterclockwise.
This is where the tubing meets the butane chamber.
Counterclockwise from the perspective of looking down the tubing at the chamber.
Standard setup is two full turns ccw from full cw (shut off).
It is shipped from the factory shut off. (or is supposed to be, in any case)
You can get a larger plume by going another half turn, I don't think I'd go more than that, though. That should get you over a foot high flame !
Also, after you bring the iTorch out, and have the valve opened by p***ing on it, don't hit the flint wheel immediately, give the gas time to build up a little. One second should be all you need. And make sure you don't set the ceiling on fire. I'm not kidding !!
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daz222
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When you do ths sort of thing to a normal lighter, after a while of turning, you light it and the gas comes out then you depress the button to stop it and the gas KEEPS COMING OUT maybe because you turned it to far? is this the case with the inviso torch? daz
Mystician
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? On normal butane lighters, I've only seen the little wheel or lever in front, and it's usually impossible to turn it any further than "max".
You're not confusing this with the butane refill valve on the bottom of a normal lighter, and the back end of the i-Torch, are you ? That's a different valve that controls the intake of butane when you're refilling it. Totally different thing.
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daz222
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Nope, I havnt got an i-torch, but with a normal lighter, if you take off the metal from the front, it just comes off with a nail file or someting like that, then you can turn it to 'max' then take off the plastic wheel that you turn then put it back to 'min' without turning the plastic cog that it connects to and then place back on to the cog and turn it to 'max' again.

Then you have double the power/height that you had at the beggining, then do it again and again and again and in the end it gets so high and so much gas coming out, it doesn't stop when you release the button. I'm not sure that is very clear instructions to read but, pm me for more details if you must know!

Is this right with the i-torch, would the gas still come out if turned up to high? daz
Daegs
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Actually 4 turns(if my memory is correct) of the valve and it will disconnect itself(losing the seal and letting all the butane spew out.

I keep mine at about 2.5/3, and periodically completly tighten it and then unscrew it back to 2.5/3 just to make sure it never accidently unscrews to the 4 and pops off.
John Sturk
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My favorite thing to do with the torch is to do a trick, then say, "OK, let me get warmed up." Nuff said.
daz222
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I like that! I was going to invet in one, then I thought the method it uses for getting rid of it (!) doesn't suit me, but I read (i think on this thread) that it goes into your che*t not a*m? maybe not but I don't think I would suit me anyway. daz
Mystician
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Daegs, I do exactly the same thing - I keep mine between 2 1/2 and 3 and check it once in a while to make sure it's "in range".

Daz, yes, it pulls back inside your jacket like a typical p__l would, not your sleeve. There's a small risk that it could get caught up on the edge of your sleeve and not extinguish.
You could certainly try it, but I sure as heck don't recommend it, and neither do the instructions for use.
There is no other fire device on the market that I know of that has a better system for ending up clean, except maybe the Igniter, which uses flash paper rather than butane. That can go up your sleeve, so maybe you'd want to look into that. It's not quite the same effect though, of course.
The problem w/ flash paper devices is, of course, resets.
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