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Dannydoyle
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It is tough to find the truth when you think you know ahead of time what that truth is supposed to be.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
akschulz
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Danny seems to be simply reciting from a famous quotes book. I've agreed that personality and style is an issue here but want to explore other ideas as well because I think these things are rather personal. Quoting platitudes isn't a form of conversation.

Am I the only one who thinks something more than just personality or style is relevant here?
Dannydoyle
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Neither is asking a question only hoping to validate your opinion and not listening to the answer a form of conversation.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
akschulz
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I've agreed with you and those who made comments directed at personality and style. Is there something I've missed there? Can you articulate what you think my "opinion" is? The one I'm supposedly trying to validate?
Dannydoyle
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You think there are specific tricks to help you with this issue.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
akschulz
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I do think some effects/routines have a structure that is better suited to the situation in general. Not looking for validation on that point though. If the question is: is there any merit in discussing particular effects/routines as opposed to only developing your personality or style when dealing with this issue, then I am looking for basic agreement, yes, that the effects/routines have some role to play. I actually assumed that was a given.
Rainboguy
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Please allow me to re-phrase what I said in my earlier post, and to be blunt.

The only way to stop a showoff/heckler dead in his or her tracks is to allow them a moment to show off and let their friends, NOT YOU, tell them that they're acting like a moron.

In magic, as in life, it's not "WHAT you say" but "HOW you say what you say".

And what I say to the "show-off would-be magician who wants to be the center of attention is: "Great....I'll just sit here and GET PAID TO DO MAGIC while you entertain us...THANKS!"

Think about it.......
akschulz
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Thanks Rainbow guy. I do take your points to heart, and agree with them. Is it not a separate issue, though, to say that some effects are better suited than others for this situation?
Dannydoyle
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Often you hear magicians say "people don't like card tricks". Well not true in the least.

So think of cards as a tool. They can be good or bad depending on the craftsman who uses the tools. It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. Same idea with trick selection. Tricks are simply a tool we use to express our medium. If you have trouble doing so, it is not the fault of the tool. Perhaps you have chosen the wrong tool in some case. Such as doing a run rabbit run for a bar crowd so on that level it might have some merrit.

BUT I have watched Heba Haba Al use sponge rabbits to entertain an entire bar. I have seen guys use magic set cups and balls to wow adults. 6 card repeat in the right hands is GOLDEN and the examples go on and on and on. What is it that saves these tricks from hecklers? THE PERSONALITY OF THE PERSON WHO IS PERFORMING THEM! The scripting and such to make the magic move along. As Roger Daltry sang "Its the singer not the song, that makes the music move along".

So I don't think the idea of discussing trick selection has much to do with the subject of hecklers. The tricks are your tools. But you have to learn how to use them if you are going to be a craftsman.

What you seem to want to do is embark on what will be a never ending journey for the perfect heckler stopper trick. Good luck. One does not exist.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
akschulz
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Well sure, that's all true. we should all strive to be as effective as heba heba al, or whomever. But, for one example, Michael Ammar doesn't particularly use a large personality to cover for this kind of stuff. In his notes on coin in bottle he comments on the issue of people possibly knowing about ****ing coins. He says "STRUCTURE [my emphasis] it so that the most critical spectator would not even suspect, let alone detect, the fact that a ****** ***n might be involved". His notes go through his thinking on the matter, most of which is focused on the STRUCTURE of the presentation. The structure is the thing that either encourages or discourages a "challenge" scenario, for Ammar. I'm having a difficult time here discouraging those who seem to want to make this an issue about MY experience, or the experience they assume I have. I don't discount the fact that what it means, in some real sense, to be a master at our craft is to be able to do any effect whatsoever for any crowd whatsoever, and to be great. Yes that comes with lots of experience. It is not the case, however, that most of us are heba heba al, or whomever, regardless of our experience, and I think it's a valid point to discuss structural points, like the one Michael Ammar refers to, as relevant to most of us.

So its not just trick selection I'm getting at but, rather ,the structure of certain tricks or routines that I think is relevant. I am not on a journey for a perfect heckler stopper Danny. But, to honor your commitment to platitudes, can I just say we should "not let the perfect be the enemy of the good".
akschulz
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And Avocat, I'm grateful for the responses I've gotten to this post. I like them. Not sure why you think I haven't. And I realize they come from people with lots of experience in dealing with this and all other issues. Not trying to negate that either. What, in my posts here has made you think I don't like the responses? Is it because I think there is also a separate issue to deal with?
Dannydoyle
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Which do you think this is?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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The STRUCTURE you want to emphasize so much is mostly inn three SCRIPT as I suggested in the first post I made.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
akschulz
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Aha! sorry, maybe this was just a semantic misunderstanding between us. I understood "script" to basically refer to just "patter", but I acknowledge it could be used to mean "plot", which works better for me in any case.

And the theater play analogy is maybe a useful one. What plots do people find are better than others in the scenario we are discussing?
themagicguy
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If you are dealing with hecklers stay away from coin tricks, even if it has a surprise finish that will catch them off guard. That is not magic, nor is entertaining.

Akschulz do you perform magic for a living or just a hobby? Because there are so many appreciative spectators out there that want to enjoy your magic. Its really not worth dealing with people that want to cause you trouble and in most cases just want to be center of attention.

Which makes it easy to recommend the best trick, give them your cards and go to the next table.
akschulz
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Hi themagicguy. I've been in magic since I was 14. My first job was as a table-hopper at 14 yrs old in a local restaurant. Now I perform on the streets in London and at paid gigs. It is my second job though. And over the past 6 yrs or so I've re-entering the field prior to a stint of 10 yrs of merely hobbyist involvement. Prior to all of this though I was, well, much younger, and my life for many many years was magic and performing, mostly stage shows and/or roaming type gigs.

I might note that hecklers are more easy to come by on the street (where you can't just walk away) than in a table-hopping environment so maybe my experience stems more from there than anything else. That being said, learning how to deal with them on the street (and with my personality) has taught me that they really want to be fooled; most of them really want to see a good magician and (most of them) only become hecklers when they are disappointed in that expectation.

In re-reading my posts I realize it might be easy to mistake me for a newbie. I am not, at least not in the way it may have seemed. But that is also beside the point. I've been trying to solicit some well-thought-out-ideas from people as to what types of routines (now I suppose I should say "plots") are better suited to this situation than others. You and others council just walking away, and that's certainly necessary sometimes. But my concern is slightly deeper:

I feel that most people are probably too polite to be a heckler or show-off, even though they may suspect or catch some part of our methods. These people politely watch the show, and enjoy it, but are not wowed by it. The reason I value a discussion of so-called hecklers is that they are sometimes voicing the thoughts others are too shy to voice. If we can deal with hecklers magically, and not by shear force of personality or by walking away, then I suspect we might stand more of a chance in giving our "normal" audience a truly magical experience, including our hecklers. This brings up another interesting topic though. If we present ourselves as magicians, not comedians or jugglers or just "entertainers", then I feel we have an obligation to try to give the audience a truly magical experience. One theory says we should just focus on entertainment, whether or not the magic is really amazing. But I always felt that a magical experience IS entertaining by itself.

I wish I could steer people away from focusing on my particular bona fides. But if you think mine is merely a misguided quest of the inexperienced I suppose I can't do anything for that. I've tried to make my points as best I can and am truly interested in ideas others have.
Dannydoyle
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Why would you do tricks notb well thought out and tightly scripted?

Also you are fairly vague on experience but it seems as if you don't have much and you want to avoid saying it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
akschulz
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Who ever said I do'that? And I've just spelled out my personal experience, again, beside the point. Plus you've already conceded the premise of my argument in your posts as you agree that doing a rabbit run for a bar crowd might not be the best "tool" to choose. So you agree that some tools are better suited to the situation than others.
davidpaul$
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Akschulz,
What has been successful for me in regards to "PLOT" and hecklers is to structure my routine to something personal to my spectators.
For example, I ask if anyone at the table has a dog. Well lots of emotion is stirred up because some love their dog and others have said to me; "Yes can you make him disappear?".....I do a card effect where I draw a picture of a dog on the back of a card and it eventually finds and attaches itself to a previously selected signed card with the dog's name on it. The structure and script leads to allot of audience involvement..........I do this effect regularly with tremendous response......

I mention this because it takes the focus OFF of ME. ( Watch what I can do) to the spectator's interaction with the premise of their dog.
(Sometimes it's a cat or fish or whatever) No longer is the heckler focused on me or trying to mess with me, they are engaged in what is going on with this dog. The FOCUS is on the dog, it's breed, the emotion people have for their pet. (positive or negative)
I did take the time (lots of time) learning to draw cartoon characters, about 6 for just this purpose.

Also, another example is Anniversary Waltz ( Carl Andrews version) My "PLOT" for this effect is to take them on a journey to their past. Where did they meet for the very first time? What is the date of their anniversary? etc etc. They both place their hands on the deck. I bring out a laser light and shine it on their hands.....The ending is priceless....Sometimes they even lean over the table and kiss each other..............Again, the reason I mention this is that even a would-be heckler at the table is NOT focused on ME, trying to take over the show or mess with me..The FOCUS is on the couple and what is going to happen with THEM.

Don't get me wrong, there are those hard-core hecklers that will still engage and I just ignore them and engage with other people. As mentioned in an earlier post, I acknowledge them for what they are. "I see we have a heckler at the table" , "I like this guy, we could be a team" and most times others at the table will handle him/her........

Repeating myself, I structure my routines, effects, whatever they may be (there is no silver bullet) to be about or what is of interest to them.
I find people have very strong emotions towards themselves, people in their life and their pets. When the focus is THERE, there is less focus on YOU and quite frankly much more entertaining.

That's my rant...
If you can't help worrying, remember worrying can't help you!
akschulz
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Cool. Thanks DavidPaul. Those are really nice examples. I haven't historically concentrate much on cards but the anniversary waltz sounds, like you say, priceless. will check it out.
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