The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Me playing with my christmas present. (Ambitious card routine) (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
Steven Youell
View Profile
V.I.P.
3866 Posts

Profile of Steven Youell
The first issue here is that one or two of the comments were non-constructive and insulting at best. Those comments did not offer any help whatsoever. Like this:
Quote:
On 2012-12-27 12:29, Uli Weigel wrote:
This "routine" has to be a joke or parody or something. At least I hope so.

I fail to see how that and the related comments helped anyone at all. But if the poster could enlighten me as to how his comment was intended to be anything other than insulting, I welcome the correction.

The second issue here, as some pointed out, is that the OP is very defensive in regards to the comments. Well, I think that's a relatively normal reaction given that the above comment was only the second one. I think most anyone would be defensive after that.

sey
Billy-one
View Profile
Inner circle
IOWA
1028 Posts

Profile of Billy-one
Agreed with SEY, as per the norm
John C
View Profile
Eternal Order
I THINK therefore I wrote
11565 Posts

Profile of John C
There's always next Christmas Nico!

J
The ULTIMATE Routine Series: rebirth soon!
Nicholas Night
View Profile
New user
Lansing Mi
93 Posts

Profile of Nicholas Night
Quote:
On 2012-12-29 23:15, John C wrote:
There's always next Christmas Nico!

J

MAke a tradition of it! New deck. New ambitious card routine every Christmas! Haha.
Uli Weigel
View Profile
Inner circle
Berlin, Germany
1477 Posts

Profile of Uli Weigel
Steven, from time to time I like to play the devil's advocate or a counterweight if you will, because I knew too well what would follow: the army of hapless helpers who only make things worse in my opinion. After watching the video of the thread opener, I figured from his voice and attitude he's not a little kid, so he could take a healthy dose of criticism, even a not so "constructive" one, whatever this means in that context. What's really harmful in magic forums is the massive and constant backslapping and pampering for even the worst demonstrations of incompetence. If you believe this kind of "help" helps beginner magicians, then I believe you live in a dream world. Detailed quality help or "constructive" criticism is lost on the thread opener, because he's obviously not ready for it. All the good will for nothing. It amazes me each time anew, that so many people new to magic looking at their freshly made video clips do not say to themselves "Nah, I can't show this around, it's not good enough" or "Oops, this needs more practice". Lacking self-criticism is in reality the problem here, and we all know, this is generally one of the biggest problems in magic clubs as well as in magic forums.

But back to the bad guy from Germany with his "non-constructive and insulting" post. What could actually happen? Nicholas may say to himself "Hm, I hate to admit it, but he's right, that was really bad", deletes the video and starts thinking and working on his trick. Good for him, good for magic. Or he may be intimidated and suddenly realizes that magic needs a lot of work and study and practice, that he decides to quit magic and looks for another hobby. Again, good for him, good for magic, because nobody needs more bad magicians who are in the game for all the wrong reasons. Or he may be angry at me and other critics, which may just as well ignite his ambition to become a good magician or at least a good video performer. Again, good for all of us. Or he decides to ignore all criticism and continue to do what too many do: buying more and more tricks, continue "learning" from dubious youtube videos, continue performing unrehearsed stuff, never study the important literature of the art, never develop a sense of what magic is all about, never getting any good, etc. etc. In that case, there's not much you can do about, at least not on a web forum.

Remember the Dai Vernon anecdote, where an amateur magician showed the professor a trick at the bar of Magic Castle? After the man finished his trick, eagerly awaiting the praise of the legendary magician, Vernon took the deck of cards out of his hand, threw over his shoulder and yelled at him: "You are the worst, no, you are the second worst magician I ever saw. Quit magic and start stamp collecting." The amateur magician was hit rock bottom and left. Vernon said to his friends: "You know what the real problem is with this guy? He can't take criticism." I always liked this anecdote.
Nicholas Night
View Profile
New user
Lansing Mi
93 Posts

Profile of Nicholas Night
Quote:
On 2012-12-30 04:51, Uli Weigel wrote:
Steven, from time to time I like to play the devil's advocate or a counterweight if you will, because I knew too well what would follow: the army of hapless helpers who only make things worse in my opinion. After watching the video of the thread opener, I figured from his voice and attitude he's not a little kid, so he could take a healthy dose of criticism, even a not so "constructive" one, whatever this means in that context. What's really harmful in magic forums is the massive and constant backslapping and pampering for even the worst demonstrations of incompetence. If you believe this kind of "help" helps beginner magicians, then I believe you live in a dream world. Detailed quality help or "constructive" criticism is lost on the thread opener, because he's obviously not ready for it. All the good will for nothing. It amazes me each time anew, that so many people new to magic looking at their freshly made video clips do not say to themselves "Nah, I can't show this around, it's not good enough" or "Oops, this needs more practice". Lacking self-criticism is in reality the problem here, and we all know, this is generally one of the biggest problems in magic clubs as well as in magic forums.

But back to the bad guy from Germany with his "non-constructive and insulting" post. What could actually happen? Nicholas may say to himself "Hm, I hate to admit it, but he's right, that was really bad", deletes the video and starts thinking and working on his trick. Good for him, good for magic. Or he may be intimidated and suddenly realizes that magic needs a lot of work and study and practice, that he decides to quit magic and looks for another hobby. Again, good for him, good for magic, because nobody needs more bad magicians who are in the game for all the wrong reasons. Or he may be angry at me and other critics, which may just as well ignite his ambition to become a good magician or at least a good video performer. Again, good for all of us. Or he decides to ignore all criticism and continue to do what too many do: buying more and more tricks, continue "learning" from dubious youtube videos, continue performing unrehearsed stuff, never study the important literature of the art, never develop a sense of what magic is all about, never getting any good, etc. etc. In that case, there's not much you can do about, at least not on a web forum.

Remember the Dai Vernon anecdote, where an amateur magician showed the professor a trick at the bar of Magic Castle? After the man finished his trick, eagerly awaiting the praise of the legendary magician, Vernon took the deck of cards out of his hand, threw over his shoulder and yelled at him: "You are the worst, no, you are the second worst magician I ever saw. Quit magic and start stamp collecting." The amateur magician was hit rock bottom and left. Vernon said to his friends: "You know what the real problem is with this guy? He can't take criticism." I always liked this anecdote.



Again. Wrong. If I am doing it the wrong way, (Which apparently I was.) Then no amount of practice will EVER make it right. So simply saying, "You suck. Go practice." is not helping anyone. If you were to say, "That was horrible, it would be much better if you did X." And, if you are indeed correct about the quote, I cannot help but lose some respect for Dai Veron, great magician or no, that comment helped no one, instead of offering advice that would have been quite valuable, he insulted him. There is quite a difference between being unable to take criticism and not liking blanket insults with no explanation or advice for improvement.

Doesn't even take much to be helpful. For example, the remember to grip the cards properly seen earlier in the thread? It was taken to heart, and that combined with tilting the cards downward instead of up, has already made it quite better. Though I cannot say I do the t**t move perfectly, (The last person I showed it to said it looked like I was putting the card on the very bottom.) I can say that my ambitious card has already improved just from a few simple things.

To those that did offer their help, I thank you.
Steven Youell
View Profile
V.I.P.
3866 Posts

Profile of Steven Youell
Quote:
On 2012-12-30 04:51, Uli Weigel wrote:
Steven, from time to time I like to play the devil's advocate or a counterweight if you will...

Uli,

Quite frankley, your post seems like a rambling rationilization and none of it answers my implied questions:

1) How was your initial post in this thread anything but insulting and hurtful?
2) How did it help the OP improve his magic?

Quote:
On 2012-12-30 04:51, Uli Weigel wrote:
What's really harmful in magic forums is the massive and constant backslapping and pampering for even the worst demonstrations of incompetence. If you believe this kind of "help" helps beginner magicians, then I believe you live in a dream world.

So there's only two choices? Backslapping or Public Humiliation? Really?

Quote:
On 2012-12-30 04:51, Uli Weigel wrote:
Detailed quality help or "constructive" criticism is lost on the thread opener, because he's obviously not ready for it.

This is actually plain wrong. I've been working with him in the last few days and he's taking criticism well. The difference is that I have the ability to tell him something's bad without using an outright insult and I'm willing to offer him a few solutions. All you were willing to do is tell him he sucks.

Quote:
On 2012-12-30 04:51, Uli Weigel wrote:
It amazes me each time anew, that so many people new to magic looking at their freshly made video clips do not say to themselves "Nah, I can't show this around, it's not good enough" or "Oops, this needs more practice".

In order to do that, beginners need to be taught discernment. How would your technique acheive that? Just tell someone they suck repeatedly until they learn what they're doing wrong by trial and error?

Quote:
On 2012-12-30 04:51, Uli Weigel wrote:
Remember the Dai Vernon anecdote, where an amateur magician showed the professor a trick at the bar of Magic Castle? After the man finished his trick, eagerly awaiting the praise of the legendary magician, Vernon took the deck of cards out of his hand, threw over his shoulder and yelled at him: "You are the worst, no, you are the second worst magician I ever saw. Quit magic and start stamp collecting." The amateur magician was hit rock bottom and left. Vernon said to his friends: "You know what the real problem is with this guy? He can't take criticism." I always liked this anecdote.

I guess that's a major difference between us. I think that anecdote makes Vernon look like a colossal as***le and you think it's model behavior.

And Uli-- I never said you were a bad person. And I understand your frustration. But the approach you used in this thread just won't work. In fact, it might have the opposite results you want-- if beginners stop posting videos, we won't have the chance to teach. And if we don't teach, then pretty soon they'll start taking money for shows when they simply don't have the ability to do more than the Svengali Deck. See?

sey
mlippo
View Profile
Inner circle
Trieste (Italy)
1007 Posts

Profile of mlippo
Steven,

I have to agree with Uli and all the people that heavily criticised this performance. He wanted a true opinion? Then he has it. You gotta admit that if he performed this routine this way in front of ANY audience, it would be a disaster for him and for ANY OTHER MAGICIAN IN THE WORLD!

What was this stuff (I am talking to you, Nicholas Night, now)? You put the blame on the new pack of cards? Do you want me to believe that if you had done the same thing with a 'warn' pack it would have been perfect??? C'mon. Only the bad artisan blames his own tools!

I don't want to offend you, but this is what I call bad routining and poor practise! Nothing else! Am I harsh? Yes, sure I am!
D'ya wanna do a decent ACR? Then start by learning a good one out there! Suggestions? Here you are:


1. Dai Vernon's - The Dai Vernon Book Of Magic
2. Roberto Giobbi - Card College vol. 2 (simple and direct, but a perfect start)
3. Tommy Wonder's - In his videos - wonderful!
4. Not a big fan of it but Harry Lorayne's in his Close Up Card Magic has some good stuff in it

And these are just a few. David Regal, Michael Ammar are other names that pop into my mind right now. And once you've decided on your routine, then practice, pratice, practice for heaven's sake!!!

And please accept any criticism. It's the only way to improve...

mlippo
Bandaloop
View Profile
Regular user
Dodging attacks for the past
194 Posts

Profile of Bandaloop
Mlippo - I think Steven's point wasn't that there shouldn't be any criticism, but that if there is it should be followed up with something constructive, such as you just did by pointing him in the right direction. You can be harsh, but being harsh and offering nothing else beyond insults doesn't help anyone.

I agree with all of the criticism that the OP received. However, just saying things along the lines of "you suck" and nothing else boils down to a simple attack, or in more extreme cases bullying. There's just no point in posting a statement like "this is horrible" and that's it. Might as well just not reply with anything. Even simply extending it to "this is horrible. you need to practice more" is better.

As for what Vernon said -- not everything that came out of the guy's mouth should be taken as religion. He was human just like all of us and had moments of uncontrolled anger like all of us as well. That anecdote, to me, is an example of what NOT to do. Unfortunately, I've been guilty of the same things, but I make an attempt to try to consciously avoid it.
Nicholas Night
View Profile
New user
Lansing Mi
93 Posts

Profile of Nicholas Night
Quote:
On 2012-12-30 10:30, mlippo wrote:
Steven,

I have to agree with Uli and all the people that heavily criticised this performance. He wanted a true opinion? Then he has it. You gotta admit that if he performed this routine this way in front of ANY audience, it would be a disaster for him and for ANY OTHER MAGICIAN IN THE WORLD!

What was this stuff (I am talking to you, Nicholas Night, now)? You put the blame on the new pack of cards? Do you want me to believe that if you had done the same thing with a 'warn' pack it would have been perfect??? C'mon. Only the bad artisan blames his own tools!

I don't want to offend you, but this is what I call bad routining and poor practise! Nothing else! Am I harsh? Yes, sure I am!
D'ya wanna do a decent ACR? Then start by learning a good one out there! Suggestions? Here you are:


1. Dai Vernon's - The Dai Vernon Book Of Magic
2. Roberto Giobbi - Card College vol. 2 (simple and direct, but a perfect start)
3. Tommy Wonder's - In his videos - wonderful!
4. Not a big fan of it but Harry Lorayne's in his Close Up Card Magic has some good stuff in it

And these are just a few. David Regal, Michael Ammar are other names that pop into my mind right now. And once you've decided on your routine, then practice, pratice, practice for heaven's sake!!!

And please accept any criticism. It's the only way to improve...

mlippo


The objection is not the criticism. It's the type of criticism. But That's been said repeatedly, and I don't believe anyone can explain it to you if you haven't gotten it already.

As for the pack of cards, I just find the DL's to be much easier on my more worn out packs. There was certainly some issues that using said packs would not have helped with.

Quote:
On 2012-12-30 10:46, Bandaloop wrote:
Mlippo - I think Steven's point wasn't that there shouldn't be any criticism, but that if there is it should be followed up with something constructive, such as you just did by pointing him in the right direction. You can be harsh, but being harsh and offering nothing else beyond insults doesn't help anyone.

I agree with all of the criticism that the OP received. However, just saying things along the lines of "you suck" and nothing else boils down to a simple attack, or in more extreme cases bullying. There's just no point in posting a statement like "this is horrible" and that's it. Might as well just not reply with anything. Even simply extending it to "this is horrible. you need to practice more" is better.

As for what Vernon said -- not everything that came out of the guy's mouth should be taken as religion. He was human just like all of us and had moments of uncontrolled anger like all of us as well. That anecdote, to me, is an example of what NOT to do. Unfortunately, I've been guilty of the same things, but I make an attempt to try to consciously avoid it.


Exactly. Also... I have a feeling there is more to that story, but I couldn't say for sure.
mlippo
View Profile
Inner circle
Trieste (Italy)
1007 Posts

Profile of mlippo
Quote:
On 2012-12-30 10:46, Bandaloop wrote:
Mlippo - I think Steven's point wasn't that there shouldn't be any criticism, but that if there is it should be followed up with something constructive, such as you just did by pointing him in the right direction. You can be harsh, but being harsh and offering nothing else beyond insults doesn't help anyone.

I agree with all of the criticism that the OP received. However, just saying things along the lines of "you suck" and nothing else boils down to a simple attack, or in more extreme cases bullying. There's just no point in posting a statement like "this is horrible" and that's it. Might as well just not reply with anything. Even simply extending it to "this is horrible. you need to practice more" is better.

As for what Vernon said -- not everything that came out of the guy's mouth should be taken as religion. He was human just like all of us and had moments of uncontrolled anger like all of us as well. That anecdote, to me, is an example of what NOT to do. Unfortunately, I've been guilty of the same things, but I make an attempt to try to consciously avoid it.


I gave him some good advice: research for a good ACR routine and practise, practise, practise.

mlippo
mlippo
View Profile
Inner circle
Trieste (Italy)
1007 Posts

Profile of mlippo
[quote]On 2012-12-30 11:01, Nicholas Night wrote:
[
As for the pack of cards, I just find the DL's to be much easier on my more worn out packs. There was certainly some issues that using said packs would not have helped with.

[quote]


Please! be honest with yourself. The problem is not JUST the DL's. If you do not admit this to yourself, then I dunno how you can be helped.

mlippo
mlippo
View Profile
Inner circle
Trieste (Italy)
1007 Posts

Profile of mlippo
Quote:
On 2012-12-30 09:32, Steven Youell wrote:
I've been working with him in the last few days and he's taking criticism well. The difference is that I have the ability to tell him something's bad without using an outright insult and I'm willing to offer him a few solutions. All you were willing to do is tell him he sucks.

sey


If he's paying you for help, then this could justify your public defense of his working. Hopefully he'll improve with your help. As you might remember we have had quite a private argument, but I cannot deny that you are probably a good teacher.

We'll see. Anyhow you must admit that what he showed us was very very bad.

mlippo
Bandaloop
View Profile
Regular user
Dodging attacks for the past
194 Posts

Profile of Bandaloop
Quote:
On 2012-12-30 11:37, mlippo wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-12-30 10:46, Bandaloop wrote:
Mlippo - I think Steven's point wasn't that there shouldn't be any criticism, but that if there is it should be followed up with something constructive, such as you just did by pointing him in the right direction. You can be harsh, but being harsh and offering nothing else beyond insults doesn't help anyone.

I agree with all of the criticism that the OP received. However, just saying things along the lines of "you suck" and nothing else boils down to a simple attack, or in more extreme cases bullying. There's just no point in posting a statement like "this is horrible" and that's it. Might as well just not reply with anything. Even simply extending it to "this is horrible. you need to practice more" is better.

As for what Vernon said -- not everything that came out of the guy's mouth should be taken as religion. He was human just like all of us and had moments of uncontrolled anger like all of us as well. That anecdote, to me, is an example of what NOT to do. Unfortunately, I've been guilty of the same things, but I make an attempt to try to consciously avoid it.


I gave him some good advice: research for a good ACR routine and practise, practise, practise.

mlippo


You did give him good advice. I pointed that out in my post. There's nothing wrong with being harsh as long as it's followed up with something helpful. You did just that.
Harry Lorayne
View Profile
V.I.P.
New York City
8304 Posts

Profile of Harry Lorayne
Mlippo is "not a big fan" so he overlooked the fact that my ACR originally in C-UCM and re-written, updated, etc., in TCC,1 - and performed on youtube, and etc., has already been suggested in this thread a couple of times. Yes, many over the decades (like Whit Haydn) have told me that they use basically my routine that they learned from one or another of those books. So, I'm "not a fan at all" of mlippo, but can't disagree with his suggestion. HL.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
mlippo
View Profile
Inner circle
Trieste (Italy)
1007 Posts

Profile of mlippo
Quote:
On 2012-12-30 11:45, Bandaloop wrote:
You did give him good advice. I pointed that out in my post. There's nothing wrong with being harsh as long as it's followed up with something helpful. You did just that.


I'm glad you understood it. Let's hope he has the same feeling.

mlippo
Nicholas Night
View Profile
New user
Lansing Mi
93 Posts

Profile of Nicholas Night
[quote]On 2012-12-30 11:39, mlippo wrote:
[quote]On 2012-12-30 11:01, Nicholas Night wrote:
[
As for the pack of cards, I just find the DL's to be much easier on my more worn out packs. ------------------------------There was certainly some issues that using said packs would not have helped with.------------------------------

Quote:



Please! be honest with yourself. The problem is not JUST the DL's. If you do not admit this to yourself, then I dunno how you can be helped.

mlippo


Please reread what I said. I really hope you didn't actually read the whole thing then post that, seeing as how you said pretty much the same thing I did.
mlippo
View Profile
Inner circle
Trieste (Italy)
1007 Posts

Profile of mlippo
Quote:
On 2012-12-30 11:50, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Mlippo is "not a big fan" so he overlooked the fact that my ACR originally in C-UCM and re-written, updated, etc., in TCC,1 - and performed on youtube, and etc., has already been suggested in this thread a couple of times. Yes, many over the decades (like Whit Haydn) have told me that they use basically my routine that they learned from one or another of those books. So, I'm "not a fan at all" of mlippo, but can't disagree with his suggestion. HL.


Harry, nice to hear from you again after such a long time we haven't had any debates on the forum! And what a great opportunity I gave you to talk about your re-write, update, etc. etc...
Let me first of all wish you a Happy New Year (too late for Xmas I'm afraid).

Now, seriously:
no, as I have already pointed out in some other thread I am not a fan of your ACR. I'd rather see others, but as I also said, you cannot go wrong if you like it and try to learn it. In my opinion you have published much better stuff and anyone interested in card magic should get your books since there's tons of good stuff in there for everybody's tastes! How about that, Larry? It might be Xmas, it might be the grappa's I've had after lunch, but I am being honest: you have good magic!

mlippo
Bandaloop
View Profile
Regular user
Dodging attacks for the past
194 Posts

Profile of Bandaloop
I'm not sure how well calling him "Larry" is going to go over Smile
MagicJuggler
View Profile
Inner circle
Anchorage, AK
1161 Posts

Profile of MagicJuggler
Another thing that you'll want to work on that hasn't been touched on yet is routining. There should be a flow to a ACR with a structure and it should continually build and seem more impossible as you go. Ideally you'll want to use methods that cancel each other out. It's my impression that you don't know quite enough moves yet to do this. Get Daryl's ambitious card video and you'll learn a lot about this type of routine in one place. Other than the technical flaws and unnatural DLs you literally do the same thing many times throughout the video. I can see there was a lot of "winging it" going on but if you want your ambitious card to improve you need to look at some good routines and notice how the trick builds to a climax instead of a bunch of repetitive moves with a sudden ending that's unrelated to the actual effect.
You've got a long way to go, but we've all been at that point as beginners as we muddled through as we tried to learn new things. I suggest you get Daryl's ambitious card video if you're looking at getting better at the ambitious card. Then start to study the ebooks you have. There's a lot in those books to learn. Start with the royal road to card magic before you tackle the others as it will lay a good groundwork for you. And remember, try to routine your movements and the individual phases of the trick so each builds on the other and the trick gets more impressive as you go. And you'll want to concentrate on learning a couple good DLs as they tend to be the foundational move in an ACR.
Matthew Olsen

www.mattolsenmagic.com




I heard from a friend that anecdotal evidence is actually quite reliable.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Me playing with my christmas present. (Ambitious card routine) (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.3 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL