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Lawrence O
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Well, Dennis, a false shuffle and a simple force should probably appear on your list.

Now as you well know by now, there are fashions or frenzies about some moves over an extended period of time and then, something new comes up... Thus statistics over the past tend to discredit every positive evolution.

Let's discuss some moves that you didn't cover (to avoid fiery debates): at the time when everyone would do tabled card magic, the pull through and up the ladder would appear in virtually every trick. Then came the Zarrow Shuffle and about every possible tabled card trick was tried using it. Now that the performance of magic is more often performed standing (restaurant magic, street magic, business venues...) the Truffle Shuffle type is superceding the Zarrow or Pull Through type. This is one of the reasons why getting back in one's library is more useful (in my opinion) to search for effects than methods. This is also why I don't like Erdnase: no gamblers (except for cheats that betray themselves by doing so) and not even casinos shuffle cards the way Erdnase and then Marlo describe any more.

Furthermore, the young guys coming with great moves like the Tom Gagnon Spread Force or Del Gaudio Truffle Shuffle will, owing to the youth of their sleight, be statistically recorded as underused. Now I'm talking of true creations, not variant obtained by changing a minute detail just to put one's name on a move.

Also the reference (and I'm a fanatic book collector and book worm) to existing books in tems of sleights may burry great variants that aren't looked over and just overlooked: I would mention, for example's sake, Daryl's lateral Depth Illusion (or Tilt Move) that had appeared in Hierophant and is statistically absent from virutally every description of the ambitious card when masters like Tommy Wonder had adopted it without even writing about it (but we can see it on his DVDs). I could have mentionned the Vinny Marini's Top Change which is totally different and is not referenced in any book when it allows to revive the Top Change (a great great sleight). This to say that there is a risk of reduction and "cheaper" technique in statistically recording methods: it tends to suggest that the recorded moves are better when we all know that the crowd is mediocre (ok let's call it average) by statistical essence. The best proof of this danger is clearly illustrated in the name of the present thread: the most quoted moves are not systematically the "right moves".

Now Harry Lorayne as a source is an exception for his research was ahead of his time and he is therefore perfectly in our present. Even if I have a presentation style at the exact antipode of his, I always learn new things in searching in Harry's phenomenal contribution.
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Harry Lorayne
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What great taste you have, Lawrence!! (Along with great knowledge.)
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
Maestro
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I'd started out with royal road to card magic from the library, then moved on to card college, harry lorayne books, and others.

You get a lot more bang for your buck with books starting out. Videos aren't bad, but I'd start with books.
magicfish
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Great point, Lawrence. Very well said.
Dennis Loomis
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To Lawrence,

Thanks for sharing your insights. I did not give you anything like my "list" of moves/sleights as it exists right now. I merely listed a few of the moves which appear in a great many effects. I already have several dozen moves listed including several false shuffles and forces.

In a sense my project cannot ever be completed because new and truly wonderful things are continually being created. I'm not sure therefore, that a printed book should be my final goal. That's something I will be wrestling with as I continue to compile data.

There are concepts or categories of moves which are not actually moves in themselves. The idea of forcing a card is a different thing than one particular force. Different performers and effect creators make choices based on many factors. One will use a simple cross force, another picks an under the spread cull force, another utilizes the cut deeper force, and another uses a classic force. A major factor is which forces you know about and can do consistantly well. As a young magician starting out I didn't realize that the classic force could be virtually 100 percent in the hands of performers that have mastered it. Then I saw Frank Everhart and my perceptions changed. As a youngster I started to do card tricks before my hands were large enough to hide a palmed card, and I was afraid to try to get away with it.

I started this project some time ago and it went on the back burner when I started to write monthly columns for MUM. Now that my 49th and final MUM column has appeared in print, I have more time to devote to this project. My goal is just to be able to point the way for a young magician as to which moves and/or classes of moves to learn in order to be able to do some great card magic, and to provide a guide to experienced card workers when they are selecting new effects for their repertoire. I am most interested in any thoughts which my fellow Café Members have on what DVDs and Books of card magic I should include in my analyses. I've started with a few obvious choices that few could quibble with.

Finally, Lawrence, you have hit on a key element when you mention taking the working circumstances into consideration. Many professionals settle into working in one particular environment. Frank Everhart worked standing behind a bar and always had a surface to work on. Matt and Charlie Schulien did after dinner magic and worked seated at a dining table with their audiences. They didn't use a pad, but did have a table with a table cloth on it. I'll be trying to identify a lot of versatile moves and tricks which can be done under most any circumstances as clearly learning them will solve a lot of problems for card workers.

Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
magicfish
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Dennis, I'm wondering why you list Ammars tapes as sources for classic effects like Vernon's Triumph.
Respectfully, Rod
Steve Friedberg
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Rod:
I won't attempt to speak for Dennis, but I can tell you that when I was starting out, Ammar's tapes pointed me in the right direction. They credited the source, and the video step-by-step instructions helped me nail what where at the time difficult moves like the Gemini Count. Now, the more you get into card work, the more you'll find that you want to check out the books which are the original sources for the material.

Incidentally, I don't buy into the entire books v. DVD debate. I firmly believe that both have their place. I personally prefer books, but understand that if Vernon and others were alive today, I believe they'd be putting out their share of DVDs as well.
Cheers,
Steve

"A trick does not fool the eyes, but fools the brain." -- John Mulholland
Dennis Loomis
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To Rod,
Because I was working my way through the Ammar DVDs at the time and it was the first time I had logged the Triumph effect. It was not my intention to suggest that this was the first or best or only source.
Dennis Loomis
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<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
brad12d3
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Thanks again guys. I have actually made some good progress on a few moves that I had trouble with before. You can amaze yourself with how fast you can get something if just keep drilling it for a little bit each day. Smile
jpleddington
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I like Steven Youell's list (linked to above), even if I'm not a big fan of the side steal and, on the other hand, think that the DPS and variants should be included.

That said, I wanted to add that learning to do effective magic with small objects will markedly improve your card magic. So, while it's not a card sleight, I'd venture to say that no card magician worth his or her salt should be ignorant of how to do and effectively routine false transfers with small objects. A great resource for learning to do this is the first DVD in the Al Schneider Technique series.

Jason
philosophy & magic
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ArturoZ.
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If you're just starting I would recomend R. Paul Wilson's Royal Road to Card Magic 5 Disc Dvd. Whats cool about it is the way its organized. He teaches you sleights and shows you tricks you can do with those sleights and as you move foward through each disk you incorporate each move and learn even more effects. By the time you are done with the Dvds you should pretty much know the basics and should even be able to come up with your own routines.

Good luck,
Art
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2013-01-04 01:53, jpleddington wrote:
I like Steven Youell's list (linked to above), even if I'm not a big fan of the side steal and, on the other hand, think that the DPS and variants should be included.

Remember that the idea is to get as much mileage from the list as possible. The Side Steal has enough variants so a person could find one that fits him. The DPS (as much as I love it) wasn't included because I believe it's a bit problematic in certain situations-- much more so than the variations of the Side Steal. Your mileage may vary, but I wanted to explain my line of reasoning.

sey
jpleddington
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Quote:
On 2013-01-04 02:01, Steven Youell wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-01-04 01:53, jpleddington wrote:
I like Steven Youell's list (linked to above), even if I'm not a big fan of the side steal and, on the other hand, think that the DPS and variants should be included.

Remember that the idea is to get as much mileage from the list as possible. The Side Steal has enough variants so a person could find one that fits him. The DPS (as much as I love it) wasn't included because I believe it's a bit problematic in certain situations-- much more so than the variations of the Side Steal. Your mileage may vary, but I wanted to explain my line of reasoning.

sey


I see where you're coming from, Steven.

J
philosophy & magic
www.jasonleddington.net
Xizzy
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Giobbi is my way. I'm going through his works one step after another.
Lawrence O
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Quote:
On 2013-01-03 07:00, magicfish wrote:
Dennis, I'm wondering why you list Ammars tapes as sources for classic effects like Vernon's Triumph.
Respectfully, Rod


When you look at the DVDs called Revelations which are in depth interviews of The Professor on several topics, who do you see handling the cards for a large part? Is it not Michael Ammar? So what's so surprising about learning from a great magician whose source are recognized and valuable?

I would more go with Roberto Giobbi, but would not criticize anybody choosing another path.
Daryl's Encyclopedia of card sleights DVDs are very valuable and I like his style very much
Alan Ackerman's Advanced Card Control Series covers common ground with Daryl but they also offer several different sleights from one another. Alan is more "Marloesque" and Daryl more audience driven.

Now for learning strong tricks
Harry Lorayne is a phenomenal source. It's one of the names that comes to the mind first even if his style is too challenging and too quick for my own presentations (but that's easy to adapt): His personal books and DVDs are just tremendous and Apocalypse is an incredible treasure Trove.

R Paul Wilson is a very talented card man (and close up magician) who's style seems kind of sad to me but he also teaches on a systematical basis (but again we need to adapt to our own style whatever we learn from great masters)

I have a personal strong disliking for Bill Malone's peronality which only magicians like for they psychologically project in him their own craving for offending the rest of the world thinking that this is entertainment, but there is no argument that Bill Malone is extremely skillful and a good teacher of so-called difficult sleights (and not only in "Marlo" style card magic.)

Jon Racherbaumer is rarely quoted in this type of research but he is also incredibly knowledgeable and detailed both in effects and advanced technique. His interrest ni finesses and subtleties is unmatched. I would strongly recommand not to pass his writings by.

David Solomon, Wesly James are from the same school but each one with a strong personality and some personal discoveries.

Finally I'm always puzzled not to see Dai Vernon quoted in this kind of teaching sources. Was he not recognized as one of the greatest card man of all times? Do we need to search to access his brainchildren? Are they obsolete?

Giobbi and Vernon would probably be my choice with Harry Lorayne's work and Apocalypse. Then I'd go for Jon racherbaumer in search for finesses.

Now on a specifically chosen effect I would recommand the DVDs specialized in that effect produced by L&L under the World Greatest Tricks by the Wold Greates Magicians To see a siimilar effect performed by several performer makes it easier to adapt the technique and the effect ot one's personality wihtout being too heavily influenced by one performer's style.

To conclude, it's a fact recognized by neurologists that we learn more easily from images (we create visually neuronal chains -mirror neurons-, only by watching repeatedly) than from text BUT text are more adapted for referencing effects variants and methods.
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Lawrence O
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Now for pristine handling of any kind of sleight, I cannot see a better performer than JJ Sanvert (even if Martin Nash comes close second)
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
motown
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The Card College Books and DVDs are a good place to start. No need to learn every sleight under the sun though.
"If you ever write anything about me after I'm gone, I will come back and haunt you."
– Karl Germain
Harry Lorayne
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In most of my writings/teachings I teach the sleight only when I suggest it within an effect or routine. To paraphrase myself, as I wrote in my book, The Magic Book (which was originally written for the general public) - "I want to save you the forty years I wasted learning sleights that I never used!" Now, I wouldn't say it, but Lawrence did - so I'll copy/paste him here: "Now for learning strong tricks
Harry Lorayne is a phenomenal source. It's one of the names that comes to the mind first even if his style is too challenging and too quick for my own presentations (but that's easy to adapt): His personal books and DVDs are just tremendous and Apocalypse is an incredible treasure Trove." Thank you, sir. Best - HL.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
Atom3339
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I get in Move Monkey mode once in awhile attempting to learn challenging sleights, but rarely find where to use them in context to maximize an effect. I choose not to obsess as Marlo would. Instead, I usually find easier solutions in HL's material. And most of my Card Magic success is due via Mr. Lorayne's teaching.
TH

Occupy Your Dream
Harry Lorayne
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Guys - you're helping to make it all worthwhile for me!! Thanks. H.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
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