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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Let's Argue about a Different Amendment!!! (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Destiny
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Reading about the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and I came across the 9th.

What does everyone take it to mean?

I think it probably is, as I read somewhere, more a guide as how to read the constitution than a rule, but would be interested in what everyone else thinks.
landmark
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This might be helpful:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment09/

Of course the rub is in what these unenumerated fundamental rights might be. I would say healthcare, housing, privacy, freedom from sexual orientation and gender discrimination would "naturally" be included; others would have their own list. And so it goes...
rockwall
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Well gee, why stop there? Let's add freedom from poverty, freedom from having to work. And for good measure, can we throw in freedom from being fat and/or ugly? Those are very limiting characteristics in society and I feel like the government should solve them too.
Jonathan Townsend
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What does this have to do with setting up a federal government under a constitution in a way that the states can approve?
scale states to estates to property to establish perspective.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
mastermindreader
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While the Constitution specifically allows citizens to travel freely from state to state, an unenumerated related right in the 18th Century, of course, was the right to own a horse, or other means of facilitating such travel. Such unenumerated rights were incorporated into the Constitution by the Ninth Amendment.

Just as Second Amendment activists proclaim that assault weapons are the modern day equivalent of 18th Century muskets, the automobile is the modern equivalent of the horse and buggy.

Thus the right to drive IS constitutionally guaranteed, despite the protestations of those who would argue otherwise and object to an analogy between gun and automobile regulation and registration.
Woland
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Does that mean that the Federal Government is obligated to take YOUR tax money to buy ME a car, so that I can exercise my constituionally guaranteed right?
mastermindreader
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No more than I've heard anyone on the right argue that the government has the right to tax me so that it can buy you a gun!

But the point of my argument above is simply to demonstrate that there is a direct parallel between the government's power to regulate both cars AND guns.
rockwall
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Possibly the point wasn't to argue that the government is obligated to buy me a car but if word gets out that owning a car is a constitutional right than watch out! Just as landmark stated that he believed healthcare was a constitutional right, I'm fairly certain that he meant that 'free' healthcare was. Who knows, with the right leadership on this point we could all be driving Travant's in a few years!
mastermindreader
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Amazing how you are disregarding my point. No one questions the right of the government to require car registration and licensing, but many have argued that the right to own a gun should not be subject to the same regulations since gun ownership is a Second Amendment right. My argument directly addresses that misconception.

But I guess there is no stopping the right wing myths about so-called liberals just desiring free stuff. It's not about things being free, it's about what we want our tax money to be spent on.

Kind of reminds me of Bill O'Reilly's racist rant the other day, in which he expressed surprise that most Asians are Democrats, given that they are an "industrious and hard working" race.
Woland
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Is there a Federal driver's license? Is your car registered with the Federal government?
mastermindreader
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Actually, there ARE federal driver's licenses and registrations, but for the sake of this discussion, States do most of the registrations, as you know. And I'm sure you also know that the NRA is opposed to State registration of firearms as illustrated by their recent activities in Virginia.

That said, there IS federal regulation over the interstate highway system and the federal government does have input into minimum vehicle safety standards.

But again, this is dodging my point. The right to drive is, I have argued, a constitutional right even though it is unenumerated. Therefore, by the logic of Second Amendment activists, registration of vehicles should be unconstitutional- whether required by the States OR the federal government.
rockwall
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Quote:
On 2013-01-05 18:22, mastermindreader wrote:
Amazing how you are disregarding my point. No one questions the right of the government to require car registration and licensing, but many have argued that the right to own a gun should not be subject to the same regulations since gun ownership is a Second Amendment right. My argument directly addresses that misconception.

But I guess there is no stopping the right wing myths about so-called liberals just desiring free stuff. It's not about things being free, it's about what we want our tax money to be spent on.

Kind of reminds me of Bill O'Reilly's racist rant the other day, in which he expressed surprise that most Asians are Democrats, given that they are an "industrious and hard working" race.


Of course you're correct Bob. I don't know where I EVER got the idea that liberals just desire free stuff! Smile
landmark
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Is military protection "free stuff"?
If your argument is that it is enumerated as a right in the Constitution, then the analogous argument is that IF the ninth amendment includes the unenumerated right to let's say, a free education, then that is as much "free stuff" as a drone attack. The point I made in my post was that inevitably people will disagree as to what the unenumerated rights are--clearly we differ on that, and the mechanism for negotiating those differences is not straightforward at all.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2013-01-05 19:12, mastermindreader wrote:
Actually, there ARE federal driver's licenses and registrations, but for the sake of this discussion, States do most of the registrations, as you know. And I'm sure you also know that the NRA is opposed to State registration of firearms as illustrated by their recent activities in Virginia.

That said, there IS federal regulation over the interstate highway system and the federal government does have input into minimum vehicle safety standards.

But again, this is dodging my point. The right to drive is, I have argued, a constitutional right even though it is unenumerated. Therefore, by the logic of Second Amendment activists, registration of vehicles should be unconstitutional- whether required by the States OR the federal government.


Not all Constitutional rights are created equal.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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On 2013-01-05 19:54, rockwall wrote:


Of course you're correct Bob. I don't know where I EVER got the idea that liberals just desire free stuff! Smile


You probably got it from Fox news and the right wing blogs you read as gospel.

:eek:
Bob1Dog
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Quote:

You probably got it from Fox news and the right wing blogs you read as gospel.

I love telling you you're just full of doo-doo, which, you are, of course. Most of us right thinking folks think that about you, but oh, you're so-o-o-o-o smart because you're a lawyer....uh-oh, well, maybe not a real lawyer, but a "once was", like VSOP Cognac? Very Special, Old Pale? Smile
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about? Smile

My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums.
stoneunhinged
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As I recall (and it's been a long time since I've studied this stuff), there was a bit of a discussion about whether to have a Bill of Rights in the Constitution. One bit of evidence about this is the fact that the Bill of Rights appears only in amendments to the Constitution rather than in the body itself.

Those arguing against a bill of rights thought that "enumerating" rights might imply that rights were given by the law rather than held by human beings by the Law of Nature.

So the issue, back then, was whether enumerating rights might imply the non-existence of natural rights.

In addition, the distinction (back then) between federal and state rights was more or less crystal clear, so any "bill of rights" was already somewhat problematic.

Nevertheless, they agreed to put a bill of rights into the Constitution, albeit as a series of amendments.

And there we are, and here we are, and I would love to have some coffee right now.
Destiny
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Quote:
On 2013-01-06 03:58, Bob1Dog wrote:
Most of us right thinking folks


'Most of us' is superfluous.

No one ever accuses people they disagree with of being 'right thinking'.
tommy
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All humans are left and right thinking. The American Constitution is a beautiful work of left and right thinking. Which is why it wins the hearts and minds of the being.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Destiny
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So it one is not right thinking, one is left thinking, or left, thinking?
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