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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » AMBITION /by the godfather » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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kentfgunn
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Marion,

Never said I didn't know. It was a silly comparison that's all.

I don't want to rank anybody. You started with the top-flight thing.

You rank who you want to. I'm going to go finish reading Card Mastery. It'll do me more good than this.

KG
gdw
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Quote:
On 2013-01-07 20:04, vinsmagic wrote:
Wow I can't believe this lol
I offered severl moves or IDEAS THAT CAN BE USED IN ANYONES ACR ROUTINE ,what I shot was not a routine just some ideas
that can be used for magicians arsenal ,,,



You know, to be fair, you DID say:

Quote:
On 2013-01-05 14:15, vinsmagic wrote:
This is a ambitious card [u]routine[/u] with out the use of a double or tripple ...



Of course, to also be fair, I don't think it was the "routine" aspect which was being viewed critically, but rather the abrupt and unmotivated movements, etc. Misdirection is meaningless when you immediately draw their eyes back to your hands with a sudden jerky move.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Billy-one
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Vinny,

I have put many videos on this site, and often they have not got positive responses....tis the internet, however I was not jaded and "taking it out" on other posters videos, I just felt your moves could cause a reaction that I would personally not invite.

BIlly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StbsZYNoZ5c

This is a little video that I made awhile ago that got many negative reviews, lol. It suffers from the lack of tempo that an audience would generate, so perhaps I feel your pain.
tomsk192
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A card routine? How dare you! Smile
vinsmagic
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GDW WHO CARES so I mis used the word routine, this is only a demo video, with moves PROBABLY you cant do....
Billy you did nothing new in your demo you have good chops , BUT this is not what my demo is about ...... you don't care for them so what move on. at LEAST I DID SOME MOVES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN SEEN BEFORE.
and many many magicians here on the Café HAVE WRITTEN TO ME AND ASKED FOR THE EXPLAINATION.
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
Billy-one
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Vinny,

I have made/invented one move in my life time.....becuse there was no classical move that worked for what I was trying too do. My point is that making moves for the sake of "invention" does not qualify said moves to be better then the classic versions. If they are not better and I am getting paid to perform, why evoke negative reactions with jerky movments when you could easily and cleanly perform classic moves during an ACR?

My problem is that some people on this board may not have as much experience as you and this could breed "problamatic" performances and leave negative taste in the mouth of both the spectators veiws on magic and on the young magician as well.

I just watched your other video and loved the effect! Im not trying to be a jerk, just wanted to be the balance amongst the others that didn't seem to see the flaw in the ACR moves (not all of them).

In regards to people asking for an explanation....its free, enough said.

Billy
LiquidSn
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Quote:
On 2013-01-07 22:14, vinsmagic wrote:
GDW WHO CARES so I mis used the word routine, this is only a demo video, with moves PROBABLY you cant do....
Billy you did nothing new in your demo you have good chops , BUT this is not what my demo is about ...... you don't care for them so what move on. at LEAST I DID SOME MOVES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN SEEN BEFORE.
and many many magicians here on the Café HAVE WRITTEN TO ME AND ASKED FOR THE EXPLAINATION.


I for one know that GDW can't do these moves. That's beyond probability.

Thank goodness.
Blog about magic. by me.

Http://www.doublefacers.com
vinsmagic
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Well SIN, your buddy Eric Jones used my move that he WAS SELLING ON ELLUSIONIST THAT HE CALLED THE AVAION CHANGE ONLY IT WASN'T HIS It was one of my moves on ambition. THE GUN CHANGE.that you just knocked, but every knock is a boost
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
Dennis Loomis
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Guys, I can't stand it when a very nice thread turns sour like the above. Vinny's a great guy, a fine performer, and has great chops with a deck of cards. He took his time to make the video of several outstanding ambitious card moves done at a very fast pace. And he posted it in this thread for all of us to see. And then some of you jump all over him and criticize his work for no good reason. The first time I watched it I knew immediately that he had just made a quick, moves-only, demo video. Not a finished routine and he was NOT trying to perform, just share a collection of excellent moves. Some of you had the audacity to compare him unfavorably with other performers.

I'll tell you a story that you don't know which shows what a great thinker and generous guy that Vinny is. In a private email I shared a quick little Ambitious card routine I had created years ago which I thought was much cleaner than most. Since I'm not a video guy I wrote out the sequence of moves and sent them to Vinny. Within 24 hours I got a response. Vinny had taken my routine and added a special something to it which made it even cleaner than the handling I thought was clean and which made it far easier to do. And to top it off he attached a video clip which he had made only for me to show me how strong his improvement to my routine was. It is, in fact, about the cleanest and easiest to do Ambitious Card sequence I've ever seen... and I've been in Magic for 43 years. (And I've lectured twice at the Magic Castle and done well over 100 shows there.)

Vinny Rocks!!!

Dennis Loomis
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<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
RamonT
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Quote:
On 2013-01-07 23:43, vinsmagic wrote:
Well SIN, your buddy Eric Jones used my move that he WAS SELLING ON ELLUSIONIST THAT HE CALLED THE AVAION CHANGE ONLY IT WASN'T HIS It was one of my moves on ambition. THE GUN CHANGE.that you just knocked, but every knock is a boost


Vinny, There just no way around them, haters always will be haters, just let them suffer and eat their hearts out. Smile,:), Smile.
Dennis Loomis
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To Rage0351,

You just don't get it. I'm guessing that you're about six years old... am I right? Whatever your chronological age, that's about your level of maturity. If you didn't like Vinny's work (and you ARE entitled to your opinion) the thing to do would be to close the thread and just go read another. I think that Steve Brooks would agree with me that the Café is here so that we can help each other and form a community of amateur and professional magicians sharing with each other.

For those of us that make a living doing magic (I've done that since 1970) it goes without saying that card sleights are done on the off-beat and under cover of good misdirection. These moves were done on the video as a teaching exercise with Vinny sharing the moves with other magicians. All of these moves can be done in such a way that lay people are highly unlikely to see any false moves when they are done properly in the context of a live performance.

So grow up and get into the positive spirit of the Café and we'll all be willing to help you and share with you.

Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
LiquidSn
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Yes, there are sleights that are done off-beat or with misdirection. BUT for the most part, its the fault with the mechanics of the sleight or the inability of the performer.

There is a simple test to weed out all the weak/bad sleights.

Ask yourself one simple question. "Is it REALLY that hard to do that?" I'm not talking method, but what you are suppose to be emulating.

If you are putting a card into the center of the deck and then do a huge swing to accomplish the control, ask that question.
Is it REALLY that hard to put 1 card into the middle of the deck?

Take sleight of hand out of the equation for a second. Would you EVER do that if you REALLY put a card into the middle of the deck? Sleight of hand conforms to the nature of what you are doing. Go MICRO. Examine everything. If your primary reason of why you are doing something is because of sleight of hand, you are doing it wrong.

We all are very easily self blinded to what we are doing. Sleight of hand is suppose to be invisible, right?

Remember this please. Just because you are doing sleight of hand DOES NOT mean it is invisible.

Sleight of hand DOES NOT EQUAL invisibility.


I'm sure if I ever met Vinny in real life we would have a good talk over a beer. This isn't personal. What I'm not a fan of is this illogical reasoning of putting out material like this.

So what this thread has taught me is that I can put out anything I want. Regardless if I haven't put the time or thought to make it good in hopes of getting praise from people.
If people criticize my moves I pull out the line that I am only doing this as a test. It's me "brain storming". It's bad because its on video. In real life it works.

Okay, I get that... But then you can't pull out the whole "This is original and I'm the best! Here is what I have done! PM ME! I give you my method!"

It's either you are WORKING on it, or you have confidence to let people judge your work.

Pick one. Give reason. Give me a reason to see your side. You can't just hide behind, "oh, you are mean".

TRUST ME when I say this. People are not harsh to Vinny's work because somehow we hate him personally. I don't wake up in the morning thinking I need to rip Vinny a new one.

When it comes to a method of controlling a card, it is very objective. Subjectivity lies with the effect and presentation. You either use sleight of hand to emulate what you would do normally or you don't.

I am a believer that magic is learned best by proving what you believe in. If you really do believe in what you are doing, then argue with reasons of why. If I defend my reasoning of the sleights I do with my credentials and my fan club, that would be crazy! Why not just tell me why you think it's good. We will listen.

I want magic to improve. I want magicians to be better. Hell, I want to be a better magician. I'm a student for life.

It isn't about finding the right answer. It's about asking the right question.

If we can't ask and critique each other, then this is all pointless.

-Tony Chang
Blog about magic. by me.

Http://www.doublefacers.com
Serrodash
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The moves in the video have natural homes in an ACR routine. No slight looks perfectly natural independently, no method is universal. The pass is a perfect example; to cover a pass you have to make sure that in the routine you give room and reason for the motion. Tony, you can't see the macro with all your micro (god I sound like I'm talking SC). Magicians, comrades, brothers, sisters; I don't think vinny here was hunting for kudos. He got kudos for sure. Probably because I've been doing the same pass and lift, wonderbox finish ACR for years and needed some new ideas to spice it up. I don't think magicians come here for reviews, mainly because we are notoriously incapable of seeing our art. A penny for thoughts and such, I'd rather this place be like those late nights trading slights with some fellow performers over drinks. No one needs to brandish irreverence or reverence here. chill.
vinsmagic
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Hi Tony if we met in real life and had a beer together you would learn about life . just by talking to me,you see to learn about life one has to live long enough .
next I never said what I do is the best . I have always in my 73 years shared my magic with anyone in hopes to make what I did better...but you do not understand this..
I want to be critized only if one takes what I shared worked on it and see for your self if this works or not I have been doing this longer than you are alive... and it works in the real world

there was no presentation in ambition I only strung a series of moves together which I called a routine but in reality it mearly showing some controls to add to ones arsenal if willing to try them.
Dennis lomas tried to tell you what I was doing ,this was not showing off but only asome tools to use rather than a double lift..

Eric jones took my idea and sold it on Ellusionist as the avaion change then later finding out it was my effect he said he would change the name and give me credit this was two months ago he and Brad still are selling the effect ..under ther avaion change..
I said pm me and I will send the handling not to expose on internet .

at 73 years old my hands are not the best there are thoes much more capable than me,

as for Rage this demos waS POSTED AS A TEACHING DEMO BECAUSE I HAVE ALWAYS POSTED AND THEN GAVE MY HANDLINGS TO ANYONE THAT ASKED .
Rage is right about what he says studing the masters, however not all of us are so fortunate to do this. REMEMBER ANYONE THAT DID SOMTHING THAT WAS NOT THE NORM WAS MOCKED ... I rest my case
vinny
the godfather of magic
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
Vlad_77
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I am going to offer my voice and if it draws fire so be it. I have followed this thread and it has taken a deplorable turn. If you don't like Vinny's magic, guess what? DON'T DO IT, DON'T VIEW IT! Is that so difficult to understand? Vinny Marini is one of the most selfless persons in this community and to see him ill-used like this makes me sick. All of you taking cheap shots are just as Mickey Painless would say "a bunch of keyboard warriors." Is Vinny a friend? Yes he is and I am privileged to have him as a friend. Can I do 1/3 of the stuff he does? Not in a million years. That said, many of you fail to consider that Vinny tells you right up front what you are seeing and so of course it's easy to criticize - much like some people criticized Christian Engblom's Cooler.

I wonder how many of you would have slammed Max Malini? Much of his magic was VERY bold. Read Vernon's book about Malini. I watched Vinny's routine a number of times and while the ONLY ACR I perform is Larry Jennings' Ambitious Classic, I have seen some moves in Vinny's routine that I would love to use as controls in much the same way as I have adopted some of the moves from Harry Lorayne's ACR.

I wish I could count how many times Vinny has offered GRATIS routines and sleights of his own making on this Café. I admire the man for his true old school spirit. Vinny IS emblematic of Magicians Helping Magicians. But again, if you don't like it, change the bleeding channel. The only reason I haven't asked Vinny for the routine is because I feel guilty: the man has given me so much already.

My voice means little if anything in the community and that's cool. I am not here to prove a ***ed thing. I see my friend being shot at so I will take some of the bullets. Grow up some of you or at least in the words of Dominic Napolitano, "hit me again and make it good."

Vlad
Joe Momma
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Quote:
On 2013-01-08 06:54, Vlad_77 wrote:
I wonder how many of you would have slammed Max Malini? Much of his magic was VERY bold.


Yes, but it was also good.
Uli Weigel
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Quote:
On 2013-01-08 06:54, Vlad_77 wrote:
If you don't like Vinny's magic, guess what? DON'T DO IT, DON'T VIEW IT! Is that so difficult to understand?


This is a discussion forum, not an if-you-don't-like-it-shut-up-forum. Is that so difficult to understand?
gdw
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Quote:
On 2013-01-07 22:14, vinsmagic wrote:
GDW WHO CARES so I mis used the word routine, this is only a demo video, with moves PROBABLY you cant do....
Billy you did nothing new in your demo you have good chops , BUT this is not what my demo is about ...... you don't care for them so what move on. at LEAST I DID SOME MOVES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN SEEN BEFORE.
and many many magicians here on the Café HAVE WRITTEN TO ME AND ASKED FOR THE EXPLAINATION.


I was just trying to be fair. You were the one who claimed it wasn't a routine. I was just pointing out that it would be an honest confusion on the part of others as you had previously called it a routine.

Quote:
On 2013-01-07 22:37, vinsmagic wrote:
I letured for the fellow ship of Christian magicians. did you think I Made a false statement, it WAS NOT A LECTURE FOR THE MAGICIAL ARTS...... WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH AMBITION ...... I HAVE OVER 60 YEARS OF MAGIC UNDEDR MY BELT .


I don't know, what DOES it have to do with it? You were the one who brought up your lecture at the Castle.
So much hostility in this thread.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Billy-one
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Quote:
On 2013-01-08 01:05, Dennis Loomis wrote:
To Rage0351,

You just don't get it. I'm guessing that you're about six years old... am I right? Whatever your chronological age, that's about your level of maturity. If you didn't like Vinny's work (and you ARE entitled to your opinion) the thing to do would be to close the thread and just go read another. I think that Steve Brooks would agree with me that the Café is here so that we can help each other and form a community of amateur and professional magicians sharing with each other.

For those of us that make a living doing magic (I've done that since 1970) it goes without saying that card sleights are done on the off-beat and under cover of good misdirection. These moves were done on the video as a teaching exercise with Vinny sharing the moves with other magicians. All of these moves can be done in such a way that lay people are highly unlikely to see any false moves when they are done properly in the context of a live performance.

So grow up and get into the positive spirit of the Café and we'll all be willing to help you and share with you.

Dennis Loomis


My point is that the video is more harmfull then helpfull....

But as I said in many other posts....I think Vinny is great in some of the other videos...just not this one.

BIlly
gdw
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Bold magic is one thing. Bold methods are one thing. In your face magic is I've thing. However, the only thing "in your face" in this video are the sleights themselves.
Even a single move performed out of context should not be calling attention to itself.
Yes, this IS about magicians helping magicians. That includes pointing out when we see something that people should not be adopting.
Vinny, I've seen some effective work of yours. I also believe some of these ideas absolutely can work and have a place. And yes, I'm saying that NOT looking at this as a routine unto itself.
The real critique that I am seeing here is the abrupt changes every time a move is done. You're moving very slow and deliberately at other moments, and then BAM here's the sleight.
Misdirection or not, that is not something to be emulated. Especially when the moves don't necessitate it.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
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