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bozo
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Lest I be accused of trolling. There may (or may not) be value in what Vinnie is offering.
I simply find these moves inappropriate in the context of an AC routine. They are too fast, too covered,
and there is (again, to me at least) more ambiguity than clarity of effect.
Mule Henderson
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Quote:
On 2013-01-06 22:26, bozo wrote:
Lest I be accused of trolling. There may (or may not) be value in what Vinnie is offering.
I simply find these moves inappropriate in the context of an AC routine. They are too fast, too covered,
and there is (again, to me at least) more ambiguity than clarity of effect.


How dare you have a minority opinion! Shame on you! Smile
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2013-01-06 22:26, bozo wrote:
Lest I be accused of trolling. There may (or may not) be value in what Vinnie is offering.
I simply find these moves inappropriate in the context of an AC routine. They are too fast, too covered, and there is (again, to me at least) more ambiguity than clarity of effect.

I don't mean any harm here, but it is a bit difficult to take a critique from Bozo seriously... Smile

sey
Billy-one
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Quote:
On 2013-01-06 22:26, bozo wrote:
Lest I be accused of trolling. There may (or may not) be value in what Vinnie is offering.
I simply find these moves inappropriate in the context of an AC routine. They are too fast, too covered,
and there is (again, to me at least) more ambiguity than clarity of effect.



I can not disagree with this comment. I find the moves to be cool for magicians, but any and every single one of my spectators would get the, "oh, he just did something" face during that routine. Again, perhaps in a diffrent context the moves might pass, but in my eyes they looked more like puzzles then clean sleight of hand moves.

BIlly

p.s. no disrespect becuse I have seen other videos from the OP that are amazing.
ilmungo
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Quote:
On 2013-01-06 22:26, bozo wrote:
Lest I be accused of trolling. There may (or may not) be value in what Vinnie is offering.
I simply find these moves inappropriate in the context of an AC routine. They are too fast, too covered,
and there is (again, to me at least) more ambiguity than clarity of effect.


Thank you for pointing out that the emperor's new clothes appear to be missing altogether... I'm sure you'll be duly scolded for your troubles. *Sigh*
Montana76
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I love it! Great work as always Vinny! PM Sent!

Thank you for being so generous to the community!
Uli Weigel
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I'm just a mere amateur, when it comes to card magic. I'd like to hear from the experts here, who complimented Vinnie on his "great work", "excellent work" etc, what they mean. The technique, the structure of the routine, the handling details? I don't doubt your expertise and I really couldn't do any of Vinnies moves myself, even if I tried, but I'd love it, if you guys could be a bit more elaborate, so I can follow you reasoning. Thank you!
kentfgunn
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Uli,

I'm another amateur. I probably don't even rise to the mere status, to which you attest.

I know we have all had a point where we become fascinated with moves; good, bad, twitchy or smooth. We like moves, moves and more moves.

Whether or not Vinny's style of magic has laudable value in a performance venue is debatable. Vinny shows us a string of moves draped around the absence of a plot called, The Ambitious Card. I suspect using moves where your hands change speed abruptly over and over again is a big a tell as the world's worst double lift. I think laymen who saw Vinny perform this effect would be impressed with his skill at switching cards. Vinny's whole persona, as he relates it, is "In your face magic". Not my cup of tea. It certainly doesn't have to be yours Uli. I suspect it isn't, anyway.

I, personally, don't choose to emulate Vinny's style or the moves he creates. If a cardman finds one or two of Vinny's moves adaptable to his or her own style, then good magic could come of it. Vinny is always willing to share his stuff and that alone makes him of value to those who follow him.

As for me, I'll march to the beat of a different drummer. Vinny and his crew hear a different song.

KG
Joe Momma
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You know occasionally Vernon would do a fake move as means of a false explanation of what he was doing. Something INTENDED for the audience to say "Hang on a sec, you just did something really fishy then"?

I think, in fact, he does such a fake in his ACR.

To me, this routine of Vinny's is that taken to the nth degree.

EVERY single move looks like he is doing something. Maybe that is what he was going for. He wanted the audience to say "hang on" at each and every phase of the routine? Then he would do the whole thing again with proper moves that are natural and would fool people?

Maybe the naysayers hadn't thought of that...
Bandaloop
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Quote:
On 2013-01-07 11:23, Joe Momma wrote:
You know occasionally Vernon would do a fake move as means of a false explanation of what he was doing. Something INTENDED for the audience to say "Hang on a sec, you just did something really fishy then"?

I think, in fact, he does such a fake in his ACR.

To me, this routine of Vinny's is that taken to the nth degree.

EVERY single move looks like he is doing something. Maybe that is what he was going for. He wanted the audience to say "hang on" at each and every phase of the routine? Then he would do the whole thing again with proper moves that are natural and would fool people?

Maybe the naysayers hadn't thought of that...


Vernon did talk a bit about using multiple fakes during his ACR to purposely throw people off balance. He wanted it to look like he made a move when he didn't.

As long as there's a reason behind it, there's nothing wrong with movements that throw suspicion in the minds of the audience. <-- The first half of that sentence is the most important part.
tomsk192
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On 2013-01-07 11:23, Joe Momma wrote:

Maybe the naysayers hadn't thought of that...


Why would it make a difference to their analysis? Maybe you didn't think of that...
Chessmann
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I don't believe that Vinny expects anyone to think that the things he offers for free is his best stuff. My impression has always been that he experiments, puts something together, puts it out on the www, and if anyone is interested in learning more, he gives it to them, gratis. No harm in that. Certainly nothing to get worked up over, as has happened on similar topics.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Joe Momma
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Quote:
On 2013-01-07 11:45, tomsk192 wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-01-07 11:23, Joe Momma wrote:

Maybe the naysayers hadn't thought of that...


Why would it make a difference to their analysis? Maybe you didn't think of that...


Well people seem to be complaining that the moves Vinny uses are unnatural and make it blindingly obvious he did "something". My assumption (albeit an incorrect one) is that Vinny has deliberately constructed the routine like that in order to do a second routine later on which cancels out all the obvious moves done in the first.

And possibly the people saying it is horrible, movey, pointless and ugly hadn't thought he INTENDED it to be like that.

Hope that clarifies things.
Mb217
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Quote:
On 2013-01-07 10:44, kentfgunn wrote:
Uli,

I'm another amateur. I probably don't even rise to the mere status, to which you attest.

I know we have all had a point where we become fascinated with moves; good, bad, twitchy or smooth. We like moves, moves and more moves.

Whether or not Vinny's style of magic has laudable value in a performance venue is debatable. Vinny shows us a string of moves draped around the absence of a plot called, The Ambitious Card. I suspect using moves where your hands change speed abruptly over and over again is a big a tell as the world's worst double lift. I think laymen who saw Vinny perform this effect would be impressed with his skill at switching cards. Vinny's whole persona, as he relates it, is "In your face magic". Not my cup of tea. It certainly doesn't have to be yours Uli. I suspect it isn't, anyway.

I, personally, don't choose to emulate Vinny's style or the moves he creates. If a cardman finds one or two of Vinny's moves adaptable to his or her own style, then good magic could come of it. Vinny is always willing to share his stuff and that alone makes him of value to those who follow him.

As for me, I'll march to the beat of a different drummer. Vinny and his crew hear a different song.

KG


I don't know, Joe Momma, Mule Henderson, Bozo, that's quite a chorus line, Gunny aka...C'mon man! Smile To each his own my friend as to what you like and what you don't. Eat of it what you will or not. I'm reading some of these posts as to how an ACR should be done, motivation, yada, yada, yada and yet I've seen people negatively criticize the work of Janathan Kamm just the same way as to this & that and what they don't like about whatever. And ain't too many of any of you doing an Ambitious Card Routine anywhere as good as Kamm. If you are, then show it as there's no need to argue about this...just show your hand and let us see for ourselves.

Now it's one thing to have an opinion, I mean, we all got them but the negative swipes from some of these folks, the rudeness (in some cases admitted) is not necessary. Now Gunny, you don't particularly like Vinny's style as to things but I do, I think he's really good, not just at cards but at all closeup magic IMHO. Most would peter-out, 5-10 miles back in comparison to Vinny's creativity and cleverness in magic. And let's not even mention his more than charitable nature, which is what this was all about mostly. Whether folks like every move or just one of them, it's hard as heck for me to believe that anyone can look at this and not see something worth investigating more closely for possible usage and or better understanding of how it could be used as per your own liking.

Funny, like I said, I see many more of these folks argue with Jonathan Kamm as to card magic as well and you'd be lucky if you ever get to be that good, and he might not even be considered a top guy in card magic but truth be told, he's better than any of you guys sleeping Smile whether you admit it here or not, amateur or supposed pro -- All comers, you're in for a real gunfight and most will be slayed easily, wouldn't you say Gunny? Smile So criticism will fly, just the nature of any such discernments. Heck, believe it or not, people criticize me. Smile But any spiteful parts of this, any such callousness offered is unnecessarily disrespectful, especially to a guy here simply offering a few slices of bread as to an old card trick. I'm just sayin' and I'm an amateur too, even worse perhaps...just a humble hobbyist. Smile

Hey Gunny, how did your Magic-Fest go out there? I hope it went well for you. Smile
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
Harald
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Thank you Vinny for sending me the handling. You are a great magician and a great fellow magician. From you we not only learn magic, we can learn much more from you: share knowledge with us who are still learning.
Great work in every way.
Thanks again
Harald
jskalon
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Amen MB!

Like you say, everyone has an opinion. Great! Not everyone likes the same thing. Great. Although I always wonder when I read some of these negative posts - how many of these guys actually perform. I don't even mean professionally. There are a lot of armchair quarterbacks in the world (not only in magic).
I am thankful for guys like you, Vinny, and several others here on the Café. You pour your life into magic and FREELY share it. Now if someone here doesn't like something - fine. If you say that in a post - fine. The methods and moves they do may not suit you. No need to trash it though.

Just sayin'.
Jack Skalon

"That's my story and I'm stickin' to it"
kentfgunn
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Marion,

Where'd the J-Kamm reference come from? I don't think I've ever slammmed Kamm. I consider him an on-line pal. He does solid journeyman-level magic. He's a working pro. Vinny's an enthusiastic amateur with a strong on-line following. Two different levels of ability and two different directions. I don't know everyone in this thread. Jonathan being better than everyone in their sleep . . . nah.

I don't dislike Vinny's style. It's all his. I acknowledge freely Vinny has a huge repertoire of things he comes up with, it's amazing the quantity of stuff he has. It simply isn't to every single magician's taste. Parading his work as ground-breaking or top-flight does a great disservice to those looking to improve. I don't think his work is something to emulate. Naturalness and complete, well-thought out presentations that have been honed worked on for years are what beginners and tyros like me need to move up. A few moves done in a sequence with no patter do not a quality card trick make.

For those looking to improve their magic, if it isn't written down in a magazine or a book, be suspicious. It takes thought and time far beyond that required to shoot a DVD to create a meaningful book of magic effects. If no one has bothered to assimilate a magician's work into text . . . there's a reason.

Those that can actually read and write well enough to produce a book or good magazine article won't bother with slapped together, quickly conceived work. They can't be bothered. I know some magicians have self-published some awful, awful magic books. I won't name names. I'm irritating enough magicians, here in this thread.

Instead look to publishers like Kaufman and H&R, writers like Hobbs, Ortiz, Hatch and Giobbi for the real work. You simply won't find it in slapdash videos on the magic Café. If you really want to progress, follow those who are progressing our art.

KG
tomsk192
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Can I get an Amen!
jskalon
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I did already
Jack Skalon

"That's my story and I'm stickin' to it"
tomsk192
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Wow, you preempted Kent's post! Smile
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