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Mb217
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Marion,

Where'd the J-Kamm reference come from? I don't think I've ever slammmed Kamm. I consider him an on-line pal. He does solid journeyman-level magic. He's a working pro. Vinny's an enthusiastic amateur with a strong on-line following. Two different levels of ability and two different directions. I don't know everyone in this thread. Jonathan being better than everyone in their sleep . . . nah.

Gunny, my man… Smile
I just mentioned JK because I’ve seen him demolished in some like posts where he was just showing something. I didn’t say YOU slammed him, go back and check that. Now I do believe he is better than most here as I said, not everyone but enough of everyone here to cut him some deserved space. He’s real good, solid as you agree. I was more spefically saying that he was better than everyone here in this string, in his sleep. And like I said, no need to argue about that, just step up and show your hand.  More seriously though, I just mentioned Kamm as an aside, a relatable comparison, if you will.

I don't dislike Vinny's style. It's all his. I acknowledge freely Vinny has a huge repertoire of things he comes up with, it's amazing the quantity of stuff he has. It simply isn't to every single magician's taste. Parading his work as ground-breaking or top-flight does a great disservice to those looking to improve. I don't think his work is something to emulate. Naturalness and complete, well-thought out presentations that have been honed worked on for years are what beginners and tyros like me need to move up. A few moves done in a sequence with no patter do not a quality card trick make.

I see that as any such disservice, especially from a man trying to lend a hand here. I consider Vinny a mentor, many do, you don’t and that’s find but his magic is as emulatable as anyone elses. Sure there are levels to things but truth be told here, Vinny is better than most all things considered as to the magic. Maybe he ain’t read all the books and doesn’t take everything Dai Vernon said as law, but so what, I haven’t either. And all beginners like you, as you say, need more than just what you think to be growthful examples of magic. And I think you’re wrong about what makes a quality card trick, or any trick…What makes a trick quality is how it is accepted. I’m sure Vinny does this set for laymen and they are blown away. Heck if he does it for some magicians, I still say a lot of them get blown away. And perhaps the more intellectual types might tear it apart, so because of that, the entire set is worthless??? C’mon, Gunny. Smile Vinny’s not here trying to win a contest or impress Scarne or even the Buck Twins, he’s just offering up a few interesting moves he’s adapted to DL-less presentation of the ACR, and that to anyone that’s interested in knowing a bit more than they do in this stuff, a different way of skinning a cat.

For those looking to improve their magic, if it isn't written down in a magazine or a book, be suspicious. It takes thought and time far beyond that required to shoot a DVD to create a meaningful book of magic effects. If no one has bothered to assimilate a magician's work into text . . . there's a reason.

I would say this is nice thinking, but I’m sure there are a lot of great things, cards and otherwise, not written down in a book. Now, I typically write down every effect I put out but there are lot of people nowadays that don’t and their work is good too. I write manuscripts to everything and have been slammed at times but I think that’s because I’m one of them cats that kiss rings much. Smile Hey, maybe that’s why a lot of people can’t catch on to the brilliant Sylvester Pitch, because it’s not written down, just on VHS and DVD. Smile

Those that can actually read and write well enough to produce a book or good magazine article won't bother with slapped together, quickly conceived work. They can't be bothered. I know some magicians have self-published some awful, awful magic books. I won't name names. I'm irritating enough magicians, here in this thread.

Well, you never irritate me because I always appreciate what you have to say, as it is always straight-on and from the gut of a true soldier, IMHO. Now, I don’t always agree with you, as a matter of fact take colorful exception a lot of the times but always with respect. Now, I must say here, that I read and write well enough to have done all that stuff you mention as more proper ID here, and I still think a lot of that stuff not written down is some great stuff. I do bother myself with it and always find it worth considering. It might sometimes be a bit unpolished, brittle, a bit tangy, even disconnected but I see these sort of things as perhaps parts of greater thoughts trying to show themselves better. Guess it depends on the eye doing the looking as well, some see diamonds, some see merely glass.

Instead look to publishers like Kaufman and H&R, writers like Hobbs, Ortiz, Hatch and Giobbi for the real work. You simply won't find it in slapdash videos on the magic Café. If you really want to progress, follow those who are progressing our art.

Fair enough, I believe in those guys too, and some of those “slapdash” videos ain’t all that bad and you can definitely learn a thing or two from them as well. I know because I've made a few myself. Smile When I was kid growing up in the dangerously, mean Harlem streets of NYC, we used to run through the backyards and rustle through the junk back there for bike parts we might be able to fashion into a workable bike. Whenever we happened upon a good enough piece of this & that toward making something we could ride a bit, we used to call it “Good Garbage.” Smile I’m just sayin’. Smile

Good talk, my friend...And don't forget, the beers and sausage are on me whenever you're in NYC. Smile

KG

-Mb
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
kentfgunn
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Marion,

Glad we're clear on Kamm, he didn't deserve having his name dragged into this. We'll pick on him another day.

It might indeed be ground-breaking to some, even top-flite to some and I don’t see that as any such disservice, especially from a man trying to lend a hand here. I consider Vinny a mentor, many do, you don’t and that’s find but his magic is as emulatable as anyone elses. Sure there are levels to things but truth be told here, Vinny is better than most all things considered as to the magic.

Marion . . . just because someone offers free stuff, it doesn't mean it's of any value. Free doesn't always mean good. We make friendships in and out of magic. I know try to stand by my pals. Vinny and I have hung out in the real world, talked on the phone and I consider him a friend. None of this is about bashing Vinny. I just don't think any magician worth a bucket of warm spit can consider that ambitious routine top-flight. It ain't. It's not the best thing Vinny's done, it's not the worst. It's not top-flight.

As for not having read very many magic books; It's a sure sign that one will re-invent old stuff. That can't be helped. Not having read Vernon, Marlo, Tamariz, Ascanio, Ortiz, Kaufman and still professing to be a creator of great stuff means you're probably self-deluded, at best. (Forgot all the stuff Lorayne wrote . . . sorry Harry, wherever you are) There is such a wealth of great magic hiding in print it bothers me I haven't read every book on my shelves. Dismissing the work of others, or renaming out of ignorance definitely does the community a great disservice. I'd bring up the "Crimp Change" but that's been done by far greater scholars than me. I know you refer to it properly now, anyway.

Vinny shares the stuff he shares. He has fans and pals. I get that. I simply think other voices, who think the path to magic goodness lies in the work of other people, should be heard. Vinny is one contributor to the huge puddle of sticky goodness that is magic. You and I differ into where his work should go in the puddle. You put it on top. I put it lower.

Sausage is good, don't drink booze.

Magic convention rocked! Ortiz lectured, it was like Vinny's stuff . . . no . . . it was awesome!

Kent
Billy-one
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Quote:
On 2013-01-07 12:29, Mb217 wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-01-07 10:44, kentfgunn wrote:
Uli,

I'm another amateur. I probably don't even rise to the mere status, to which you attest.

I know we have all had a point where we become fascinated with moves; good, bad, twitchy or smooth. We like moves, moves and more moves.

Whether or not Vinny's style of magic has laudable value in a performance venue is debatable. Vinny shows us a string of moves draped around the absence of a plot called, The Ambitious Card. I suspect using moves where your hands change speed abruptly over and over again is a big a tell as the world's worst double lift. I think laymen who saw Vinny perform this effect would be impressed with his skill at switching cards. Vinny's whole persona, as he relates it, is "In your face magic". Not my cup of tea. It certainly doesn't have to be yours Uli. I suspect it isn't, anyway.

I, personally, don't choose to emulate Vinny's style or the moves he creates. If a cardman finds one or two of Vinny's moves adaptable to his or her own style, then good magic could come of it. Vinny is always willing to share his stuff and that alone makes him of value to those who follow him.

As for me, I'll march to the beat of a different drummer. Vinny and his crew hear a different song.

KG


I don't know, Joe Momma, Mule Henderson, Bozo, that's quite a chorus line, Gunny aka...C'mon man! Smile To each his own my friend as to what you like and what you don't. Eat of it what you will or not. I'm reading some of these posts as to how an ACR should be done, motivation, yada, yada, yada and yet I've seen people negatively criticize the work of Janathan Kamm just the same way as to this & that and what they don't like about whatever. And ain't too many of any of you doing an Ambitious Card Routine anywhere as good as Kamm. If you are, then show it as there's no need to argue about this...just show your hand and let us see for ourselves.

Now it's one thing to have an opinion, I mean, we all got them but the negative swipes from some of these folks, the rudeness (in some cases admitted) is not necessary. Now Gunny, you don't particularly like Vinny's style as to things but I do, I think he's really good, not just at cards but at all closeup magic IMHO. Most would peter-out, 5-10 miles back in comparison to Vinny's creativity and cleverness in magic. And let's not even mention his more than charitable nature, which is what this was all about mostly. Whether folks like every move or just one of them, it's hard as heck for me to believe that anyone can look at this and not see something worth investigating more closely for possible usage and or better understanding of how it could be used as per your own liking.

Funny, like I said, I see many more of these folks argue with Jonathan Kamm as to card magic as well and you'd be lucky if you ever get to be that good, and he might not even be considered a top guy in card magic but truth be told, he's better than any of you guys sleeping Smile whether you admit it here or not, amateur or supposed pro -- All comers, you're in for a real gunfight and most will be slayed easily, wouldn't you say Gunny? Smile So criticism will fly, just the nature of any such discernments. Heck, believe it or not, people criticize me. Smile But any spiteful parts of this, any such callousness offered is unnecessarily disrespectful, especially to a guy here simply offering a few slices of bread as to an old card trick. I'm just sayin' and I'm an amateur too, even worse perhaps...just a humble hobbyist. Smile

Hey Gunny, how did your Magic-Fest go out there? I hope it went well for you. Smile


Who is Jonathan Kamm?

Billy
kentfgunn
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Billy,

He's a restaurant worker from around Chicago. He works three or four different restaurants every week. Solid performer. I suspect he's been the object of derision on here before. I missed that thread. I've seen him work. He's entertaining and proficient at sleight-of-hand.

I understand Vinny works at a restaurant as well. I've only hung out with him once at a convention. He did some of his stuff. A good time was had by all. Two different levels of expertise/interest.
Billy-one
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I think that, if we are looking to rank ability, working a restaurants would not be in my list of qualifications....magic is something special and not many people doing it...getting into a restaurant is more about being able to talk to managers versus being a top flight magician...., but it (working) should give people flight time to get better...just not always the case. I don't belive that Vinny is using those move is a working enviorment, unless he is playing a role of a trickster and doesn't want to fool anyone or create a moment of aww.

BIlly
Mb217
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Yeah, Kamm is better than everyone in this string and Vinny is better than most. Smile

Hey Gunny, thanks for the response. Like you, I'm not here for consensus, just to give my 2 cents, which I happen to think is worth at least a buck. Smile Interestingly, I've read a lot of those guys and enjoy them. Robin Hood wasn't part of the royalty or the nobles, and I respect that for some reason. And funny, my great grandfather never learned how to read and was still one of the smartest men I've ever known. Go figure. Smile

And for the sake of argument, I do believe in "levels" as to things and mention that to the coin guys all the time. I don't think they like it as when I mention it, I've refered to people like Mickey Silver, who don't have a DVD, book, etc., to speak of but is one bad Mofo, and all those guys with all those books and everything else know it well enough, truth be told. And I know, because I just told it...yet again. Smile And I'm not as good as Kamm in cards or Vinny with coins, just good enough though...Wanna try me? Smile

Oh, and my proper reference to the Crimp Change is still the "Crimp Change," for what it's worth. Smile What I did with it, "I" did with it, not any of those other guys, though all due respect is given them and the greater scholars as to my branches on this tree. Smile
http://www.magicplace.com/product/crimp-change-redux

And hey Gunny, it's a heckuva time to stop drinking booze (beer, really???) Smile but I'm giving it up, been meaning to for a long time...Thanks for the reminder. Smile How about some good black cherry soda and some prime rib Hoagies...I know a great place. Smile
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
Billy-one
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I have never seen/heard of Kamm, just as he prob has never heard or seen me.....but I doubt this statement that he is better then everyone in this string, maybe a link to a video?

Billy
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Mb,

Ok, nevermind, I found some of his videos on Youtube....he is good. Better then others on this string *myself included* nah.

Billy
ashah12
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Vinny,

This is fantastic material! I always look forward to your contributions to our beautiful world of magic that we all share together. I've sent you a PM!

Sincerely,

Arsh Shah
Gulyás Imre Miklós
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Btw Marion Robin Hood was a nobleman Smile
I took the Pledge
Mb217
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Hey Gunny, maybe you should be speaking to Billy from Iowa mostly as to levels and what makes a "real" magician, etc. Smile

Hey Billy, so you think Jonathan Kamm is good huh? Smile. Gunny said he's "proficient" and is still reveling over Darwin Ortiz, as well he should...He's pretty slick alright. Levels! Smile

Oh, and I missed Youell here early on. He ain't no VIP for nothin' as to accomplishment, proficiency, all them books Gunny read and more as to the very best of card magic and why. Yep, levels.

Hey Gunny, lets sorta mix apples and oranges here for a sec... "With cards", does Ortiz have more ability than the Buck Twins? Because you know they can do all that gambling stuff he can do. Can he do what they can do, is his act any better? Depends right? Hey which one would be the hoofer and which the fine dancer? What levels within the levels are we talking about as to yesterday and today as to cards? I'm just askin'. Smile I can see Billy now running to YouTube. Smile
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
Billy-one
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Am I missing something? He is good, not better then most workers.....but, then again, its all context. Could he do my gigs....nah, but I would love less technically proficiant workers to fill in. I watched his videos and his effects are real workers...so I respect that. He is clean with his moves (or should I say move), but nothing special in respects to high level technical work.

He sure isn't richard turner in technical aspects and *** sure isn't bill malone in performance(or technique)....I must be missing something?

Billy
gdw
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Well this has been fun.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Harry Lorayne
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Apology accepted, Kent. Don't let it happen again!! HL.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
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Hasn't it? Oh, such fun.

Here is something really nice, it's some sort of Ambitious Card routine from off the internets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrApPgoWZqE

Now I'm not saying he couldn't learn a thing or two from Vinnie, whoever he is, but it's not bad. Right?
kentfgunn
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Marion,

Bucks compared to Ortiz . . . ability. They're different, really different. I know all three of them practice and perform way more than you me or Vinny. All three of them are also significantly better than the vast majority of people who have ever touched a deck of cards. Dan and Dave brought a whole new edge to card magic. They're fantastic flourishers and wonderful magicians. They produce some of the finest videos on the market; both their own material and that of other great magicians. I suspect Dan and Dave do not have you, me or Vinny on speed dial.

Darwin Ortiz, not so much on the flourishing. I believe, with all my heart he has created some of the finest card magic ever conceived and performs that magic seamlessly and without peer. His written material, from "The Annotated Erdnase" to his latest work "Lessons in Card Mastery" contains one of the greatest bodies of magic with cards created by a single man.

Kinda puts our little quibble into perspective. Popping off some refined handlings of the DeManche change, coming up with an ambitious routine sans double-lift or creating a cups and balls routine pales in comparison.

Don't listen to me, MB or Vinny. Get a Darwin Ortiz book, buy "The Trilogy". Learn from the true masters of magic. Ignore the rabble, here at the Café.

I'm done here Marion. I think you have my number. Call anytime.

KG
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Quote:
On 2013-01-07 19:23, tomsk192 wrote:
Hasn't it? Oh, such fun.

Here is something really nice, it's some sort of Ambitious Card routine from off the internets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrApPgoWZqE

Now I'm not saying he couldn't learn a thing or two from Vinnie, whoever he is, but it's not bad. Right?


Why more people do not study Wonder and other master's is beyond me.

To those who argue that Vernon also used sucker moves...go read more Vernon and Tamariz. The so called sucker moves in their routines serve an important purpose. What Vinny shares here does not.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 2013-01-07 03:27, Uli Weigel wrote:
I'm just a mere amateur, when it comes to card magic. I'd like to hear from the experts here, who complimented Vinnie on his "great work", "excellent work" etc, what they mean. The technique, the structure of the routine, the handling details? I don't doubt your expertise and I really couldn't do any of Vinnies moves myself, even if I tried, but I'd love it, if you guys could be a bit more elaborate, so I can follow you reasoning. Thank you!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I am still waiting to hear a response to this.
tomsk192
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Quote:
On 2013-01-07 19:32, rage0351 wrote:
Why more people do not study Wonder and other master's is beyond me.


I dunno, maybe it's not "top flight" for them?

Reading Tommy Wonder, or Tom Stone if you want to be contemporary about it, shows just how much practice, thought, (practice), analysis, (practice), scrutiny, (practice), experimentation, (practice), development, (practice), scripting, (practice), silent scripting, (practice), multiple performance, tweaking and practice is involved.

On the other hand, you can just set up a web cam and record whatever.
vinsmagic
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Wow I can't believe this lol
I offered severl moves or IDEAS THAT CAN BE USED IN ANYONES ACR ROUTINE ,what I shot was not a routine just some ideas
that can be used for magicians arsenal ,,, I could of demonstrated another 50 that no one has ever SEEN ....
but these moves are on my latest DVD The godfather tips his hand..
as for me being a amature ,,,,that I am not ,,,i have lectured at the world famous magic CASTLE AND ASO LECTURED SEVEAL TIMES AT MAGIC GALORE AND of which MORE MANY OF THE TOP magicians in the world lecture ////
remember I am doing this for a camera not a live audience where I interact and use misdirection.
this is not about me it is about my material , ANYONE CAN USE,. I HAVE BEEN USING THESE TECHNIQUES FOR YEARS AND THEY WORK FOR ME IN THE REAL WORLD..
remember it takes guts an courage to pull of the stuff I do , I am not a clone of anyone I am my self ,,
BILLY FROM IOWA ,please put up some of your ideas so we can critque your work..
the godfather of magic
vinny
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http://www.vinnymarini.com
Mb217
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Quote:
On 2013-01-07 19:23, kentfgunn wrote:
Marion,

Bucks compared to Ortiz . . . ability. They're different, really different. I know all three of them practice and perform way more than you me or Vinny. All three of them are also significantly better than the vast majority of people who have ever touched a deck of cards. Dan and Dave brought a whole new edge to card magic. They're fantastic flourishers and wonderful magicians. They produce some of the finest videos on the market; both their own material and that of other great magicians. I suspect Dan and Dave do not have you, me or Vinny on speed dial.

Darwin Ortiz, not so much on the flourishing. I believe, with all my heart he has created some of the finest card magic ever conceived and performs that magic seamlessly and without peer. His written material, from "The Annotated Erdnase" to his latest work "Lessons in Card Mastery" contains one of the greatest bodies of magic with cards created by a single man.

Kinda puts our little quibble into perspective. Popping off some refined handlings of the DeManche change, coming up with an ambitious routine sans double-lift or creating a cups and balls routine pales in comparison.

Don't listen to me, MB or Vinny. Get a Darwin Ortiz book, buy "The Trilogy". Learn from the true masters of magic. Ignore the rabble, here at the Café.

I'm done here Marion. I think you have my number. Call anytime.

KG


I'll take all that to mean that basically you don't know. Smile Yeah, them levels are something, ain't they? Depends on what you're comparing. Anybody can compare what they like with what they don't like -- kids do that better than anybody. Smile But I give you two giants in their own right with the same tools and all of the sudden... Smile I see Harry Lorayne stopped by, you think he's in between the two or three as it were, or will you pull out yet another "difference" card? Smile

And oh, I've read some of Ortiz' work, like "Strong Magic" and have even reached out to him about a friend of mine that became quite a card man. He once told me to ask Darwin about him and I did. And Darwin said yeah, he's the real deal alright. Same kid I used to run through the backyards with, the actual kid that coined the term, "Good Garbage." We used to do magic together as kids. He was always a perfectionist and I'm not surprised that he became so good with a deck of cards that Darwin Ortiz knew exactly who he was. So not exactly speed dial but small world, huh? Smile

I'll give you a call bro. Smile
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
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