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Steve Friedberg
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Okay...taking all of these comments into account, let me suggest the following: Vinny, if you were to perform these moves as a routine for a group of magicians (as was your stated purpose off the top), what would it look like? What would you do to make it more transparent, smoother, less "bam!" Is there any way you would be willing to shoot a revised video to show all of us...those who love your work, as well as those who don't...how fluid your (and their) ACR can look with your sleights?

One other point: Vinny says...
Quote:
Hi Tony if we met in real life and had a beer together you would learn about life . just by talking to me,you see to learn about life one has to live long enough .
Given that Tony Chang is one of the best card workers in the world...that he's lectured at places like Magic-Con, and will be lecturing at the Golden Gate Gathering and SAM conventions this year...and given that he's incredibly humble about it all...I guess the question is, "What would you, Vinny, learn from him?" I've found that I learn something from almost every single person with whom I speak, if I'm willing to listen.
Cheers,
Steve

"A trick does not fool the eyes, but fools the brain." -- John Mulholland
Erdnase27
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My opinion is that if somebody puts out a video for all of us to see, it can and should be critisized. Why would Vinny be above critique, while in another topic on this same subforum a guy doing an ACR (yes an ACR) gets slammed by other people (including famous magicians)?
Don't we all have learning to do? Imagine if I were to pick up a guitar, butchered an entire song and posted it on a music forum. Wouldn't I actually want to get critique, just to help me improve? I don't think this is an personal matter, since many people who voiced their opinion also clearly stated WHY they don't like it. It just won't fool when its used in a repetition effect where people will watch closer with each and every fase.
"He must be content to rank with the common herd." - S.W. Erdnase
Serrodash
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Lol, erdnase. The proper analogy would be if I posted a video where I did a series of licks and arpeggio flourishes in the same mode and people on the forum bashed me because the song didn't have a chorus and a verse. In performance Vinny directs like a master and nails the moves subtly; go look up an actual performance. Here he is exhibiting slights and methods and offering an explanation for anyone curious. Again, thanks for the moves Vinny.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2013-01-08 08:57, Serrodash wrote:
Lol, erdnase. The proper analogy would be if I posted a video where I did a series of licks and arpeggio flourishes in the same mode and people on the forum bashed me because the song didn't have a chorus and a verse. In performance Vinny directs like a master and nails the moves subtly; go look up an actual performance. Here he is exhibiting slights and methods and offering an explanation for anyone curious. Again, thanks for the moves Vinny.


Although the "routine" aspect has come up, I don't think that has ever been the real critique of anyone here. It's the way each of the moves is screaming, calling attention to itself.

One can post isolated moves, or a series of disconnected moves, without making each one pop like a flourish. You don't need the context of a routine to not call attention to every time you do a move.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
kentfgunn
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkVfkYReEMQ

Here's a video from one of our posters.

Can you guys see the difference in:

Video production
Presentation
Skill of the performer
Preparation of the performer

?

Follow the light. For the times they are a Changin'
Tony Chang'in that is.
Serrodash
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My point, GDW, is that the video was exhibiting raw mechanics. It's hard for me to see where the bashing or critique is coming from as nothing is on the table as a solid product. It would be like calling the advocate useless because Daniel Madison did the laziest, most raw, exhibition of it at EMC. Madison wasn't putting on a performance, he wanted to show what the index could do on the most basic mechanical level. Speaking of Madison, the man who cops to his pocket every other second, I think what he does is probably the current trend for card magic. Just to disagree with the pun put forth by Kent.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2013-01-08 09:28, Serrodash wrote:
My point, GDW, is that the video was exhibiting raw mechanics. It's hard for me to see where the bashing or critique is coming from as nothing is on the table as a solid product. It would be like calling the advocate useless because Daniel Madison did the laziest, most raw, exhibition of it at EMC. Madison wasn't putting on a performance, he wanted to show what the index could do on the most basic mechanical level. Speaking of Madison, the man who cops to his pocket every other second, I think what he does is probably the current trend for card magic. Just to disagree with the pun put forth by Kent.


Who said anything was useless?

Also, we've been talking about honest and 100% valid critiques. It's hard for me to see where the harsh reactions to such are coming from.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Serrodash
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My mellow has remained unharshed gdw. I just think the criticisms don't really apply. Vinny seems ****ed, but that's because those were his moves. Now, lets let the thread fade away into the archive.
Mb217
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Quote:
On 2013-01-08 08:18, Steve Friedberg wrote:
Okay...taking all of these comments into account, let me suggest the following: Vinny, if you were to perform these moves as a routine for a group of magicians (as was your stated purpose off the top), what would it look like? What would you do to make it more transparent, smoother, less "bam!" Is there any way you would be willing to shoot a revised video to show all of us...those who love your work, as well as those who don't...how fluid your (and their) ACR can look with your sleights?

One other point: Vinny says...
Quote:
Hi Tony if we met in real life and had a beer together you would learn about life . just by talking to me,you see to learn about life one has to live long enough .
Given that Tony Chang is one of the best card workers in the world...that he's lectured at places like Magic-Con, and will be lecturing at the Golden Gate Gathering and SAM conventions this year...and given that he's incredibly humble about it all...I guess the question is, "What would you, Vinny, learn from him?" I've found that I learn something from almost every single person with whom I speak, if I'm willing to listen.


I think Vinny was referring mostly to his life experiences, as he mentioned his age of 73 years. Of course his experience in magic is within that breath of time as well. Tony Chang may be a world class worker but what is he, 35 or so, maybe? And no, age is not a problem but don't so easily dismiss what Vinny has experienced/contributed in twice the time on this earth. I'm sure like both of them said, they could share a beer and no doubt learning would occur on both sides of the table and even greater respect would be earned from these guys. I think a guy like Harry Lorayne would feel the same way. Perhaps he don't have the chops of young Tony Chang, but I would believe that he would think Tony could learn some things from him as well, in all his years doing card magic. And for what it's worth, I appreciate your comments on all this, Tony's as well and any comments here that are not so callously put.
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
Mano
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Quote:
On 2013-01-08 09:13, kentfgunn wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkVfkYReEMQ

Here's a video from one of our posters.

Can you guys see the difference in:

Video production
Presentation
Skill of the performer
Preparation of the performer

?

Follow the light. For the times they are a Changin'
Tony Chang'in that is.



I am all of a sudden puzzled here, are you trying to compare them? I honestly don't see your point.



Mano Tejeda.
Steve Friedberg
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Quote:
On 2013-01-08 10:08, Mb217 wrote:I think Vinny was referring mostly to his life experiences, as he mentioned his age of 73 years. Of course his experience in magic is within that breath of time as well. Tony Chang may be a world class worker but what is he, 35 or so, maybe? And no, age is not a problem but don't so easily dismiss what Vinny has experienced/contributed in twice the time on this earth. I'm sure like both of them said, they could share a beer and no doubt learning would occur on both sides of the table and even greater respect would be earned from these guys. I think a guy like Harry Lorayne would feel the same way. Perhaps he don't have the chops of young Tony Chang, but I would believe that he would think Tony could learn some things from him as well, in all his years doing card magic. And for what it's worth, I appreciate your comments on all this, Tony's as well and any comments here that are not so callously put.


Marion:
I'm not discounting Vinny's experiences in the least. I mean, I'm 56...so I'm not that horribly far behind. And you confirm the point I made...that both sides can learn from the other. I guess I've been at this game of life long enough (as opposed to the game of Stratego) to understand that it behooves all of us to listen every now and then. There was a famous writer of satirical songs who stopped writing them as he got older; he said that as he aged, he began listening to other arguments. And, he said, it was difficult to write protest songs that included the lyrics, "Yes, but...."
Cheers,
Steve

"A trick does not fool the eyes, but fools the brain." -- John Mulholland
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On 2013-01-08 07:24, Uli Weigel wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-01-08 06:54, Vlad_77 wrote:
If you don't like Vinny's magic, guess what? DON'T DO IT, DON'T VIEW IT! Is that so difficult to understand?


This is a discussion forum, not an if-you-don't-like-it-shut-up-forum. Is that so difficult to understand?


Problem is Uli, I have seen more flaming aimed at Vinny than discussion. You know and I know it. And people like Joe Momma knows it. Tell me please how Joe Momma's answer to Malini's magic was in anyway a discussion?

@Joe Momma: WHY was Malini's magic "better?" What criterion do you base such an opinion on? As Uli stated, this is a discussion. I am interested in your answer as much as I would be interested in your answer if I had asked the question if Vernon's magic was "better" than Marlo's. Note that I am using "" around the word "better."

@Erdnase: The issue isn't that Vinny or anybody is above criticism; the issue is that ATTACKING someone is bad form. This thread started with Vinny offering a routine or whatever some of you want to call it - hell we are getting into a semantics game here! - and offered it freely to anyone who wanted it. Many threads on here ask people to critique and that's a good thing. But this thread has turned ugly. Why? NOT because of the critiques, but somehow, Vinny offers something of his own for free and some people lambast him for it.

I ask those of you who have practically nailed Vinny to a cross: Why is it that someone who gives something in good spirit is knocked for it? What does Vinny have to gain by giving something away?

Kent Gunn has at least offered substantive opinion and Marion has countered likewise and neither of these guys have gotten nasty with each other. Some will chime in and state that Vinny got nasty first. But again, he created the thread to show something and GIVE IT AWAY for Heaven's sake.

Yes, Vinny's magic IS unorthodox; he will be the very first to tell you that. A lot of old timers have told me that Jerry Andrus was knocked all the time for the same thing. I am not saying that everybody has to LIKE Vinny's magic - what a boring world it would be if we all liked the same thing. I am not addressing thst. I am absolutely lost however as to the meanness that has surfaced in a thread in which a gift was offered in good spirit.
Dennis Loomis
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Tony is amazing and the video was very well produced. Vinny jumped in front of a camera just to demonstrate a handful of Ambitious Card moves to other magicians. He didn't feel that he had to say that this was not a performance of an actual Ambitious Card Routine intended for lay people. He was being generous to share these moves with us and a handful of nay sayers jumped all over him. The problem was that the critics were challenging the video for not being something that it was not intended to be.

Had the critics simply pointed out that in an actual Ambitious Card Routine for a lay audience the moves would have to be done on the off beat and under cover of misdirection then Vinny would have certainly agreed and all of the acrimony would have been avoided.

As for me, I've got a new killer version of the Ambitious Card effect to add to my repertoire because of Vinny's insight and generosity. Long live the Godfather!

Dennis Loomis
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<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
gdw
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Quote:
On 2013-01-08 11:06, Vlad_77 wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-01-08 07:24, Uli Weigel wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-01-08 06:54, Vlad_77 wrote:
If you don't like Vinny's magic, guess what? DON'T DO IT, DON'T VIEW IT! Is that so difficult to understand?


This is a discussion forum, not an if-you-don't-like-it-shut-up-forum. Is that so difficult to understand?


Problem is Uli, I have seen more flaming aimed at Vinny than discussion. You know and I know it. And people like Joe Momma knows it. Tell me please how Joe Momma's answer to Malini's magic was in anyway a discussion?
. . .


"If you don't like Vinny's magic, guess what? DON'T DO IT, DON'T VIEW IT! Is that so difficult to understand? "

How is that, in any way discussion, or, even remotely, doing anything but promoting the exact OPPOSITE of discussion?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
vinsmagic
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First and foremost Kent this is a perfect example of a professionaly shot demo perfect angles, edits ,ect, any magician can see Tony's fingers moving under the cards to perform the slights..My demo is about my work doing or trying to do something different. not about my skill..i don't compare myself to anyone

Tony's demo is about trying to try and sell a product, I am not selling anything I shot it straight on for all to see the good and the bad,,, big deal;

Steve I think a ACR is very boaring,,, I tried to add some spice to anyone routine even yours by perhaps taking one of the moves an adding it to existing routines....there is no motivation in what I shot it weas just a bunch of controls.... there was no story I hate stories in magic it is all fake ...

Also I can do things that you or tony or kent or anyone can not do this does not make me better than anyone
I am different
Steve you mentuoned to me you were proud to perform Ortiz and Vernon's work at the magic castle that's very good. I perform my own work even if it is not up to your standards but it is still my work not anyone elses.i don't need to prove anyting to anyone at least I have the courage to put my work out in the public's eye so all can either bash or like .
.
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
MarkSpitzer
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Nice ideas for additional tools in the toolbox. Thank you for offering them!
I really do appreciate your ongoing generosity.
One (kidding) comment: This uses ALL your applicable controls except one???
Ok, maybe not strictly a control in the set-up, but don't you have a Han Ping Chien type move you could use at the reveal?

[side note: I have not posted my comments on your upcoming DVD release not so much out of not knowing where to post it, but because I am basically a lazy ***. I brought my pre-release copy with me to the Czech Republic while I'm on the road this month. Do you want me to post here; http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&forum=3 , here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&forum=2 or in another thread?]

Greetings from Prague, Czech Republic!
gdw
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Quote:
On 2013-01-08 11:06, Vlad_77 wrote:
. . .

Problem is Uli, I have seen more flaming aimed at Vinny than discussion. You know and I know it. And people like Joe Momma knows it. Tell me please how Joe Momma's answer to Malini's magic was in anyway a discussion?
. . .

@Erdnase: The issue isn't that Vinny or anybody is above criticism; the issue is that ATTACKING someone is bad form.

. . .


People "attacking" Vinny, you mean like this:

"Lest I be accused of trolling. There may (or may not) be value in what Vinnie is offering.
I simply find these moves inappropriate in the context of an AC routine."

"p.s. no disrespect becuse I have seen other videos from the OP that are amazing."

" I don't doubt your expertise and I really couldn't do any of Vinnies moves myself, even if I tried, but I'd love it, if you guys could be a bit more elaborate, so I can follow you reasoning. Thank you! "

"Vinny's whole persona, as he relates it, is "In your face magic". Not my cup of tea. "

I have not seen any "attacks" on Vinny, just criticisms of the moves in this video. Quite often accompanied by compliments on some of Vinny's other work.

Almost everything I have read, and I just re-read the whole thread, that is critical, is focused on the moves as presented in this video, not attacking or flaming Vinny at all. That's not to say there hasn't been attacking or flaming in this thread.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
vinsmagic
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Hi Mark sure you can post here the dvds will be available either this week or next on my web sight vinnymarini.com

look for the details,,,,,
vivinny
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http://www.vinnymarini.com
gdw
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Correction, there HAVE been comments criticizing Vinny's approach to disseminating his material, when compared to the value of some classics. However, that is not attacking Vinny. I think that is something that is DEFINITELY worthy of discussion and critique.

Personally, I think Vinny's generosity is great. It think we need more competition in the information that is shared like this. I also think that people critiquing, and criticizing, information like this is also needed. Peer review is important. Many people share many things, that doesn't mean that it will all have beneficial results to those consuming the information.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
vinsmagic
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Gdw good points , but for those critiquing the controls have they tried them ???? or is it just they do not like what they see?/ remember this is on camera not in real life.

if you watch Eric Jonesb perform my move it looks teriffic in his hands of course proper angles and perfect lighting ect ect
no one ever said it was bad when he did it that's because it was performed by someone other than me ,and I am the target here believe it or not/
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
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