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Bill Cushman Inner circle Florida 2876 Posts |
OK, I have to chime in on this one. First, of course it is art or the best book on mentalism of our times wouldn't be titled, "The Artful Mentlism Of Bob Cassidy!" Someone has to clue me in about how to add animated emoticons, please.
Second, a forgery can be art as well (though obviously not a paint by number version!]. See F For Fake, the Orson Welles documentary focusing ont the career of Elmyr de Hory. I'd be hard pressed not to define his work, copies or not, as anything other than art. The movie has some great stories about Elmyr's biographer, Clifford Irving and the Howard Hughes bio hoax and I highly recommend looking for it. Finally, Bob, you and I bonded over a comment I made many years ago here. I stated that I didn't think magic or mentalism, art or not, could ever have the same kind of artistic impact as music (or dance, painting and other "high art"]. People bizztched at me and you came to my defense and wrote that you absolutely agreed. You shared about your family's musical history, your early experiences as musician and we had a great discussion that I'll always remember. So, I don't think the question is merely about whether or not mentalism is an art. Rather, can it have the literally life changing impact of other art forms? As much as I love it, I still think not. Have you changed your mind on this? |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
...some interesting definitions here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art#Purpose_of_art
maybe mentalism is an art movement, rather than art itself - as in, its a series of philosophies loosely tied together to help give it a basis to work from...a manifesto of sorts...
I've asked to be banned
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C.J. Inner circle There's a lotta rambling in my 2366 Posts |
If you call yourself a performer, then you are engaging in art. A performing art. The only other way to view it is that you are merely performing a service, making you a serviceman, which seems cold, clinical and impersonal in my mind. The service we are providing (I speak for *most* of us, perhaps not all) is predominantly entertainment, plus whatever motivational/challenging/religious/counselling add-ons we spin. First and foremost, I believe mentalism is about storytelling. I have loftier goals of what I want to achieve in the minds and worldviews of my audiences, but at heart, I recognise that I am just an actor, and that all I have to work with are the tools of the actor. The distinction between art and craft that has been raised in this thread is quite interesting in that light.
Connor Jacobs - The Thought Sculptor
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur Be fondly remembered. |
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Mr. Mindbender Inner circle 1566 Posts |
Not sure why this questions is even important.
How I, or someone else defines what I do doesn't change what I do. I create and perform the way I choose to create and perform. Call it what you want. It doesn't change the experience of my performance. Don't intend this to sound harsh, but the questions is basically just an exercise in semantics. |
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JanForster Inner circle Germany ... when not traveling... 4190 Posts |
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On 2013-01-12 17:35, Mr. Mindbender wrote: I like that. Jan
Jan Forster
www.janforster.de |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
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On 2013-01-12 17:35, Mr. Mindbender wrote: I disagree. |
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Mr. Mindbender Inner circle 1566 Posts |
I'm intrigued Dr. Bob. I have immense respect for you, so I'm curious...does whether or not someone calls mentalism an art change anything you've done?
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
No. But what I consider art has effected what I do considerably. Individual creativity is something I strongly believe in and I try to convey that in my writings. It's one of the things that separates art from imitative craft. "Jazz Mentalism," for example, is really a very improvisational kind of performance art in which the creativity actually takes place during the performance. It's a lot different than just presenting a pre-rehearsed routine by rote.
And I think that audiences can really sense when you are actually creating something unique, just for them. |
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Mr. Mindbender Inner circle 1566 Posts |
I agree with you 100%, and I fully believe that mentalist is an art. I guess I just don't see the benefit of labeling it. I went to a ”prestigious" graduate film school years ago, and there was a group of students who occupied themselves talking about how they wanted to make art. There was another group who spent their time making films. I gravitated to the second group.Years later, the few of us still in the business from my class are from that second group.
And you're absolutely right about art versus imitative craft. If guess if you push yourself to make art, you go beyond the imitative and strive for originality. |
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C.J. Inner circle There's a lotta rambling in my 2366 Posts |
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On 2013-01-12 17:35, Mr. Mindbender wrote: Because if you accept it as a performing art, then it is subject to the tools of performing arts, and you can choose to "create and perform" more purposefully, with a clear understanding of what you are actually doing in light of the conventions of theatre that have remained stable for hundreds (thousands) of years: Space, sound, energy, focus, tension, etc. I'm passionate about this and have spent the last couple of months slowly chipping away at a book on the subject.
Connor Jacobs - The Thought Sculptor
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur Be fondly remembered. |
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SIX Inner circle New York City 1772 Posts |
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On 2013-01-11 15:12, parmenion wrote: I respectfully disagree..I think it is based on his intentions, not the performer! |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
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On 2013-01-12 22:29, Mr. Mindbender wrote: We really don't disagree at all. I just wanted to start a dialogue. You're right, of course, that it doesn't matter how OTHER people label what I do. It's all about what I'm trying to create. I would have joined you in joining the group that actually MADE films rather than those who talked about it. I'm sure the real artists were in the former group- there is no art unless you create it. |
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Mr. Mindbender Inner circle 1566 Posts |
That's the key word -- dialogue. It's an important step in changing and evolving and creating. I'm positive that not only would you have joined the other group, you would have been a leader, especially since when we were done working, we'd meet up at the local bar!! Ah, I sometimes long for the days when life was about one thing (film, or writing , or mentalism, or women), and it usually ended with a mug or shot of something! Anyway, back to art...
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JanForster Inner circle Germany ... when not traveling... 4190 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-01-12 23:23, SIX wrote: Art is not a question of willing or trying or wishing... Intentions can lead to art, but often don't do. I play piano, read and understand music. So I like to compare; the intention to play good music doesn't make you necessarily an artist. Endeavour doesn't count, the result is of importance. Unless you will define everyone being an artist. Not my way, there are already too many believing being artists. In schools today you see kids who can repeat a full sentence without mistakes, parents are clapping like hell, teachers bring that on stage and kids believe they are great actors. And this believe continues, just look around, see all the YouTube kiddies, magicians and mentalists... Jan
Jan Forster
www.janforster.de |
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JohnWells Inner circle The Southern Wild 1791 Posts |
I would say that very nearly anything can be art. The germane question is whether the result is beautiful, to my mind. Mind you, I do not mean pretty. Art can be pretty, and sublime, but is, like all things deeply human, subject to human ugliness. In the sign language used by Trappist monks, the sign for beautiful is a gesture depicting the lifting of a veil from the face. To be beautiful is then to be apocalyptic, it is revelatory. Art shows us truth we had not seen without it. And, because it is revelatory, is must also be revolutionary. Art does not leave us unchanged.
I would note that if, as I suggest, art is revelatory, the artist may never be wholly selfish. There must always be a desire to show, and ultimately, what the artist shows is himself. There must always be an at least innate desire to offer one's vision to the other. Thus may mentalism be art in my view. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
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On 2013-01-13 00:50, Mr. Mindbender wrote: Or a mug shot! :eek: |
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Stephen Young Inner circle Thought Illusions 3933 Posts |
John Wells, in a post above said that almost anything can become art. I think I'd pretty much agree with that.
Anything that involves a skill, I would say, can be elevated to an art. Take for example "balancing things" even that can be elevated to an art IMHO http://youtu.be/-KVPA-9hofw That's not to say that anyone with skill can be an arttist at whatever discipline they choose to work in. It also requires passion, commitment, application, focus maybe even single-mindedness. I would not consider myself an artist in any of my disciplines. (photography, mentalism, play-writing to name a few) because as much skill as I could possibly learn could not make up for the lack of commitment or passion required to focus everything on the one disciple, I love them all too much to give any of them up. There are very few people who are an artist in more than one field. steve |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Well said, Stephen.
It's really difficult to serve more than one master/mistress. And mentalism, or any other activity raised to the level of art, is a harsh mistress. Good thoughts, Bob |
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Stephen Young Inner circle Thought Illusions 3933 Posts |
Some people pay good money for a harsh mistress. Not that I'd know, of course.
But I have recently resurrected an old writing project, Bordello The Musical. (I'm not joking) steve |
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Mike Ince Inner circle 2041 Posts |
Last night I was reading about Devant's "Mascot Moth" illusion and how Jim Steinmeyer and John Gaughan recreated it for Doug Henning's short-lived musical, "Merlin". A beautifully executed performance of the effect lasted only a few seconds; a lady vanished as if sucked into another dimension about four feet above the bare stage floor. You can see it performed on YouTube. It took John Gaughan three months to design the illusion. Was it art? It was sort of artful because it fit the scene in the musical. By itself it was a beautiful puzzle. In the context of the show as in Devant's original there was a reason for the lady to vanish. Still, the simple dialogue of the scene made the story seem to be a weakly-disguised excuse for showing a cool trick. A man has a daydream of a beautiful princess. When he comes to his senses she vanishes.
If storytelling is art then mentalism can be art. Like the rest of the audience, I don't care whether you call it art or not. I care whether it's interesting to watch. If I enjoy it I'll esteem it well. Call it what you want but if you insist on making it artful you should have something to communicate other than, "look what I can do". I'm happy watching a funny or compelling demonstration that proves the mentalist's claims. When I see a show I don't usually want a deeper message. Enlightenment shouldn't come at the expense of entertainment. I want to be thrilled and engaged. I'd like to see a play with a mentalism act built-in. For example, a play about a traveling carnival in the 1930s that features sideshows, fire-eaters and the like behind the main drama. A mentalist character (perhaps the main character) could present a Q&A at one point, using real questions from the live audience, including them as characters. The atmosphere would harken to Nightmare Alley but the story would unfurl without a hint of exposure, i.e., the character of the mentalist would always be presented as genuine. That could be artful.
The secret of deception is in making the truth seem ridiculous.
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