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Mike Ince Inner circle 2092 Posts
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It's interesting how long this thread has gone on.
Sometimes people answer the OP's question with a response that essentially says, "TO ME, mentalism is ______________ ." That kind of statement presumes that all definitions are equal, that reality is subjective and that the definition is determined by the individual. Some people don't know up from down, yet - how could their definitions be given as much weight as that of a founding member of the PEA, for example? At risk of offending a few readers, who cares what mentalism is TO YOU? I want to know what mentalism is to all of us. If everyone has their own definition of what mentalism is as a performance art, then there is no definition. In that case the idea to which the word "mentalism" refers isn't clear. We can't have a conversation about anything without agreed upon definitions. When you look at the history of mentalism, what it was when it began, and when examine the performances of famous mentalists through the decades (such as Fay, Alexander, Dunninger, Kreskin, Geller, Brown) though they claim different abilities, you find a common thread that connects them all... believability, or at least plausibility. Many audience members believed the abilities of these performers might be real, whether they claimed to be mediums, mindreaders, hypnotists, body language experts, etc. Even when some mentalists give heavy disclaimers and tell the audience they're using trickery, audience members approach afterward asking to have their futures foretold. The show, despite disclaimers, is believably acted. If you're a Mental Magician, where's the shame in that if your audiences like what you do? I guess some performers who think they're mentalists will take offense when they discover their audiences perceive them as magicians. They believe they've just been knocked down one rung on the ladder of the "performance hierarchy" described by Stewie Griffen (reprinted here with one alteration): Legitimate theater Musical theater Stand-up Ventriloquism (Mentalism?) Magic Mime Lately I've backed away from performing as a mentalist because, try as I have to disclaim supernatural abilities, ladies still approached after my Q&A act asking me about their futures. In almost all cases I had already stated that I didn't know the future and couldn't answer questions about it. The audience believed the experience of the show, not the disclaimer. When mentalism is done right, it's easy for people to believe you have special insight into their lives. I don't want to mess with people's belief systems or help lead them in any way to con-artists and their dry wells. There's too much confusion in the world already. I just want to entertain people by fooling them. For conscience' sake I may have to knock myself down a rung. If I do, I may not call myself a "mental magician", but that's essentially what I'll be. I have to do what my conscience agrees with in order to enjoy my performances and to act with conviction.
The secret to deception is simple: make the truth sound ridiculous.
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MatthewSims Special user 737 Posts
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Quote:
On May 19, 2014, Mike Ince wrote: Mike, You are speaking in terms of "definition" regarding art. I do not believe mentalism can be defined definitively, as it is an art form. When I said..."mentalism is...blank..." I was not defining mentalism, I was offering my subjective opinion, and what it means to me. When viewing mentalism as an art form, is not all art subjective? I do however believe there is a definitive difference between mental magic and mentalism (what this thread is supposed to be about). You say..."Some people don't know up from down, yet - how could their definitions be given as much weight as that of a founding member of the PEA?" Again, you're speaking in terms of definition regarding something that is subjective. This is not a battle to define "mentalism". As for the comment... "Who cares what mentalism is to YOU, I want to know what mentalism is for all of us". The second part of this statement contradicts the first part. How can you expect to know what mentalism is for all of us, without knowing what it is for one person? The "us" is created by the "you". Because art is subjective, it will mean different things for different people. For you, it's "a way to entertain the audience by fooling them". For me, it's something deeper than that. Neither approach or perspective is right or wrong. Art cannot be right nor wrong. Art is art. Lastly, you say..."If you're a Mental Magician, where's the shame in that if your audiences likes what you do? I guess some performers who think they're mentalists will take offense when they discover their audiences perceive them as magicians. They believe they've just been knocked down one rung on the ladder of the "performance hierarchy". No one has said anything in regards to this. There is no shame in being a "mental magician". The topic is about what the difference is between mental magic and mentalism. Humbly, Matthew |
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Mike Ince Inner circle 2092 Posts
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Matthew, I don't have time to respond right now, except to say my post wasn't directed at you, exactly. It couldn't be. I didn't read your post. But I am criticizing the refusal to accept that definitions apply to everyone. Of course I agree that a definition which applies to the individual applies to everyone. While there are differences in the way even the famous mentalists I mentioned approach their performances, there are similarities between all of them that cannot be ignored or you lose the essence of what mentalism is. I'm not dictating that everyone perform as I do or with the same intentions. I'm looking for a consensus that mentalism must be believable or it ceases to be mentalism.
I remember asking once, "what does that painting mean?" Someone answered, "it means whatever you think it means." "Oh," I thought, "in other words it means nothing because the painter didn't even know what he intended to communicate. How useless." Subjective statements only tell us about the feelings and opinions of the individual, not about anything that exists outside that person.
The secret to deception is simple: make the truth sound ridiculous.
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jstreiff Special user 701 Posts
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This may seem controversial at first, but it is not. We have no access to objective reality, whatever that may be. We are forced to know reality solely through our individual perceptions. All our knowledge is necessarily subjective. Even device measurements require subjective interpretation by experimenters. We can achieve consensus, but this is not a guarantee of knowing truth. In a very real sense, we do not know what we do not know. We cannot therefore really truthfully and factually say that anything is 'impossible'; simply that we have no experience of it. This is why there is disagreement, debate and sometimes dissension.
If we follow this thinking, we realize that the best we can hope to achieve is a highly tentative group consensus which may in fact prove to be wrong. Belief the world was flat appears to have been such an example. Of course there are philosophers and, today, scientists who are convinced that nothing material exists: that we actually exist in some form of cosmic virtual reality. So the 'truth' as such is grounded ultimately in the subjective impression of the individual, whatever and whoever that may be. Every perception is 'right', and we might as well accept that fact. True, those that live to argue won't be happy with this but that is the state of things.
John
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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True. We cannot, because of the filters through which we perceive the universe, see objective reality.
But there is a consensus reality that is generally agreed upon that enables us to function. And part of that consensus is a fundamental agreement as to what words mean. When everyone defines terms differently, accurate communication becomes difficult if not impossible. If "mentalism" means anything one wants it to mean, it has no meaning at all. |
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insight Inner circle 3095 Posts
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Can we all agree on this?
Mentalism is a performing art in which its practitioners, known as mentalists, appear to demonstrate highly developed mental or intuitive abilities. Performances may appear to include telepathy, clairvoyance, divination, precognition, psychokinesis, mediumship, mind control, memory feats and rapid mathematics. Hypnosis may also be used as a stage tool. Mentalists are sometimes referred to as psychic entertainers. Contents [hide] 1 Background 2 Performance approaches 3 Mentalist or magician 4 Notable mentalists 5 Historical figures 6 Mentalism in television 7 See also 8 References 9 External links Background[edit] Much of what the modern mentalist performs in his or her act can be traced back directly to tests of supernatural power that were carried out by mediums, spiritualists and psychics in the 19th Century.[attribution needed] However, the history of mentalism goes back even further. Accounts of seers and oracles can be found in works by the ancient Greeks[attribution needed] and in the Old Testament of the Bible. Among magicians, the mentalism performance generally cited as one of the earliest on record was by diplomat and pioneering sleight-of-hand magician Girolamo Scotto in 1572. The performance of mentalism may utilise similar principles, sleights and skills as street magic or stage magic.[1] Performance approaches[edit] Styles of presentation can vary greatly. A few performers, in the mold of Uri Geller, or James Van Praagh, claim to actually possess supernatural powers such as telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition, or telekinesis. Many contemporary performers, including Richard Osterlind, Banachek, Max Maven, and Derren Brown, attribute their results to mundane skills, such as the ability to read body language or to manipulate the subject subliminally through psychological suggestion. The ability to read body language, brain hacking and detecting lies is also very remarkable in this category. where Paul ekman( book Telling Lies), Joe navarro (FBI Agent Ret.) (book What Every Body Is Saying) has contributed a lot. Prashant A Mahajan (India) is very new upcoming, claim to be the Fastest Human Lie detector in this area.[citation needed] Mentalist or magician[edit] Mentalists generally do not mix "standard" magic tricks with their mental feats. Doing so associates mentalism too closely with the theatrical trickery employed by stage magicians. Many mentalists claim not to be magicians at all, arguing that it is a different art form altogether. The argument is that Mentalism invokes belief and when presented properly, is offered as being "real" be it a claim of Psychic ability or proof that supports other claims such as a Photographic Memory, being a Human Calculator, the Power of Suggestion, NLP, etc. Magicians ask the audience to suspend their belief and allow their imagination to play with the various tricks they present; they admit that they are tricksters and entertainers and the audience understands that the lady really isn't sawn in half nor can the performer actually fly or make exceptionally large objects vanish into thin air. . . it's all Illusion. There is however a "cross over" between these two worlds known as "Mental Magic" -- effects that have the feel of something psychic or mentally phenomenal and yet incorporate a series of physical devices that lend to the public a plausible explanation tied to trickery Many magicians, however, mix mentally themed performance with magic illusions. For example, a mind-reading stunt might also involve the magical transposition of two different objects. Such hybrid feats of magic are often called mental magic by performers. Magicians who routinely mix magic with mental magic include David Copperfield, David Blaine, The Amazing Kreskin and Dynamo (Steven Frayne) Notable mentalists[edit] This list of "famous" or "notable" persons has no clear inclusion or exclusion criteria. Please help to define clear inclusion criteria and edit the list to contain only subjects that fit those criteria. (August 2012) Alexander Theodore Annemann Banachek Keith Barry Luca Volpe Richard Webster Robert Nelson Ron Martin Burling Hull Kenly Craighill Vlad Grigorescu John Riggs David Berglas Derren Brown Paul Brook Patrick Redford Luke Jermay Kuda Bux Nefesch James Randi Chan Canasta Bob Cassidy Corinda George Tait Davenport brothers Paul W. Draper Shawn Spencer Joseph Dunninger Cristian Gog Kellar O'Neil Mark Edward Glenn Falkenstein Uri Geller Haim Goldenberg Nimrod Harel Axel Hellstrom Matt the Knife Al Koran The Amazing Kreskin Gary Kurtz Max Maven Gerry McCambridge Richard Osterlind Marc Paul Bennett Parry The Piddingtons Morgan Strebler Frances Willard The Zancigs Neil Tobin, Necromancer John Edward Emran Riaz Deddy Corbuzier Alain Nu [Prashant A Mahajan (Human Lie Detector)] Historical figures[edit] Mentalism techniques have, on occasion, been allegedly used outside the entertainment industry to influence the actions of prominent people for personal and/or political gain. Famous examples of accused practitioners include: Erik Jan Hanussen, alleged to have influenced Adolf Hitler[2] Grigori Rasputin, alleged to have influenced Tsarina Alexandra[3] Wolf Messing, alleged to have influenced Joseph Stalin[4] Count Alessandro di Cagliostro, accused of influencing members of the French aristocracy in the Affair of the Diamond Necklace "The Amazing Kreskin" has audience members hide his checks before the show; if Kreskin cannot find the check at the end of his performance, he does not get paid. Mentalism in television[edit] America's Got Talent: Eric Dittelman, a mind reader, performed on Season 7 of the NBC talent competition America's Got Talent. He was eliminated in the semifinals. Romania's Got Talent: Cristian Gog, a mentalist, won the big prize. Romania's Got Talent,: Vlad Grigorescu, a mentalist, won the second prize. Romania's Got Talent: Alexandru Ionut Marcu, a mentalist, was eliminated in the semifinals. The Mentalist: an American crime procedural television series in which the main character, Patrick Jane, worked as an independent consultant for the California Bureau of Investigation and later the Federal Bureau of Investigation, solving serious crimes by using his skills of observation and his frequent use of his abilities as a former professional mentalist. Psych: an American criminal comedy-drama television series in which the main character, Shawn Spencer, works as a consultant to the Santa Barbara Police Department as a "psychic detective." Though he purports to be a psychic, the truth is that his exceptional observational skills, amazing vision, and near-photographic memory allow him to portray himself as such. Deception with Keith Barry: Discovery Channel. Sherlock (TV series): Sherlock is a British television crime drama that presents a contemporary adaptation of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes detective stories Tricks of the Mind: a British TV show starring Derren Brown. Pasąmonės Kontrolė: Kobra TV Channel by Nicholas Kin. Now You See Me: Merritt McKinney, played by Woody Harrelson, portrays a mentalist. The Next Mentalist (TV show): an Indonesian TV show about 11 mentalists who compete with each other to show who is the best and chosen as the next mentalist of Master Mentalist Deddy Corbuzier The Mysterious World of Alain Nu on TLC See also[edit] This "see also" section may contain an excessive number of suggestions. Please ensure that only the most relevant suggestions are given and that they are not red links, and consider integrating suggestions into the article itself. (July 2012) Cold reading Eccentrics Idealism James Randi Telepathy Materialism Memory sport Mnemonist Psychomagic Scientific skepticism Si Stebbins The Great Buck Howard (film) The Mentalist (TV series) Theatrical seances Thirteen Steps To Mentalism (book) References[edit] Jump up ^ Randi, James (1995). "An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural". St. Martin's Press. Retrieved 2008-03-28. Jump up ^ Gordon, Mel: "Hanussen: Hitler's Jewish Clairvoyant". Feral House, 2001 Jump up ^ George King, The Last Empress: The Life and Times of Alexandra Feodorovna, Tsarina of Russia. Replica Books, 2001. ISBN 978-0-7351-0104-3 Jump up ^ Hamilton-Parker, Craig (December 1, 1996). "Medium with a message". Scotland on Sunday. p. 5. External links[edit] Media related to Mentalists at Wikimedia Commons Mentalist in An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural PSYCRETS British Society of Mystery Entertainers Mentalist associations Psychic Entertainers Association. PSYCRETS The British Society of Mystery Entertainers Mentalist conventions MINDvention is an annual convention of mentalists. Tabula Mentis A twice yearly event sponsored by PSYCRETS http://www.mentalismwizzard.com |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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No. I disagree with almost everything in that Wikipedia article that you posted verbatim.
Mentalism is simply the art of presenting seemingly paranormal abilities, particularly mind reading, as a form of entertainment. |
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funsway Eternal Order old things in new ways - new things in old ways 10317 Posts
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Quote:
On May 20, 2014, insight wrote: I got this far and lost interest or confidence. How about those who ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATE such things? "Highly developed?" Relative to the average observer any performer has that. Etc. "Paranormal" or even "exceptional" are different from "highly developed." How about demonstrating (or claiming) innate abilities considered "other than normal" by most folks? Why no mention of pendulum work or other "little known" innate abilities of all humans? What about the demonstration of "highly developed mental or intuitive abilities" out side of the entertainment venue? I can agree with Bob that the term "Mentalist" should probably be limited to the performing arts, but then what do we call other demonstrations that the lay audience will label as Mentalism? Largely because of Bob's influence I no longer use term "mentalism" unless I am performing for entertainment. That doesn't mean that friends don't call me that behind my back. Limit the term (or confuse it all you wish) That has little relationship to what actually occurs in the mind of an observer.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 11165 Posts
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Quote:
On May 20, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: LOL! |
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MrThomas Regular user Magdeburg 122 Posts
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At the moment, this is one of the most interesting Topics here in Penny...
Bob, would like to contact you, regarding your book "Artful Mentalism of Bob Cassidy: Fundamentals". Could I send you a pm? Thanks! Hans |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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Yes.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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Quote:
On May 21, 2014, Mindpro wrote: The really funny part is that he cut and pasted the entire article EXCEPT for the notice that appears at the top. Here it is: Quote: This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page. |
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insight Inner circle 3095 Posts
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With all due respect, you must be the change you wish to see in the world. If you have issues with the definition, you should help in making changes to help it reflect your reality. If a few mentalists define mentalism differently than a few billion users of wikipedia, that could be problematic in the sense that our audience's perceptions are being molded incorrectly.
quote]On May 21, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: Quote:
On May 21, 2014, Mindpro wrote: The really funny part is that he cut and pasted the entire article EXCEPT for the notice that appears at the top. Here it is: Quote: [/quote]
This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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The fact that an inaccurate article appears on Wikipedia (surprise) hardly means that it represents the opinons of "a few billion" users of Wikipedia.
The official Wikipedia disclaimer at the top of the article accurately states that the article has "multiple issues," is unverified and requires the attention of an expert on the subject. And, no, with all due respect, it is NOT my responsibility to change it. |
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insight Inner circle 3095 Posts
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The only part that I disagree with you is that it is our collective responsibility to help our art. Yes, as a practitioner, it is your responsibility just as it is mine. We must all do all that we can to help educate the public on what mentalism truly is and not sit silently knowing that sources comtinue to mislead. I feel the same way about piracy. If I think there is fraud, and if I am not a consumer, I don't sit back and say its not my responsibility. As others (I hope) would do, I report it and try to make a positive change. We are all responsible to ensure the health of our industry.
quote]On May 21, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: The fact that an inaccurate article appears on Wikipedia (surprise) hardly means that it represents the opinons of "a few billion" users of Wikipedia. The official Wikipedia disclaimer at the top of the article accurately states that the article has "multiple issues," is unverified and requires the attention of an expert on the subject. And, no, with all due respect, it is NOT my responsibility to change it. [/quote] |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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I disagree- It is NOT my or any other mentalist's "responsibility" to "educate the public" about what mentalism is. If it was, I'd write my books for the general public.
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insight Inner circle 3095 Posts
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One question: don't we educate the public about what mentalism is every single time we perform? I just think we must be the change we wish to see in the world.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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No. We show them mentalism as we wish them to perceive it.
Posting accurate descriptions of mentalism publicly would simply be exposure. |
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insight Inner circle 3095 Posts
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Educating the public on what mentalism is...that is not the same thing as exposure, in my opinion.
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts
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Mental magic, Mentalism, What is the big deal! It is all illusion, no matter if you perform it as real or fake! Why do we care if the public knows the difference, when it does not matter in the first place. I say we stop posting on this forum, because some of you sound like your getting angry.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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