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Jeff Wassom Elite user 493 Posts 
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I think it matters to other performers who put a lot of thought and care into their presentations and craft.
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts
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On May 21, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: You defiantly know more than me about the subject, so don't get offended, please. That is the last thing I want. But most of the things you listed are part of performance. Effect selection is different of coarse. Again, I am just starting in mentalism, and you are Bob freakin' Cassidy, so if what I say is incorrect that would be why, and please correct me if I am wrong.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10972 Posts
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On May 21, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote: Not at all. There are many more and deeper differences that could be discussed and explained all day, but if you (or anyone) are not willing or capable of understanding, we're just wasting our time trying to explain. At the very core of it, magic and mentalism are exact opposites. Magic is known by all to be a trick, an illusion, deceit, not real. Mentalism is the opposite. Many believe it is real, and even more want to believe it is real. They approach it from an entirely different perspective that is not even close to magic. That's just one of the fundamental differences. Also I'm getting tired of the newfangled definition of the word "performing". When I and others here speak of performing it is for a theater, showroom or banquet room full of guests, often paying guests. This one on one stuff, street stuff, a couple of things here or there, or a couple of things on the radio, etc. I do not consider "performing". It is certainly not at all the way to get the understanding of "the majority" understanding of how mentalism plays and how the audience responds and reacts and the true art and performance of mentalism. Doing magic with a mental premise, setup or facade IS NOT mentalism. I get that it's hard to understand that you don't know what you don't know. But you never will know or learn if you don't first acknowledge that you don't know what you don't know (try comprehending that one). This lack of understanding I feel is the main reason mentalism is in the state it is with so many magicians doing what they think is mentalism and doing it quite poorly, when in reality THEY don't even know what mentalism is themselves. So that poses the question, if they don't truly understand it, A.) how can they perform it (mentalism), and B.) How can they properly present it and expect the audience to get it and accept it. |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts
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On May 21, 2014, Mindpro wrote: As for the main difference you stated, weather they believe it is real or not depends on your performance of the effect. (and of coarse willingness to believe) I am interested in learning the difference, so other than that what other differences are there, and if it is too much to put here where can I read about it?
Reality is a real killjoy.
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Mark_Chandaue Inner circle Essex UK 4205 Posts
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Hmm I like a debate as much as the next guy, perhaps more than many but I'm actually amazed to see such a debate over something that seemed to leave little room for debate. Personally I thought Bob's original description of the differences between mental magic and mentalism was pretty succinct and made complete sense even to this experienced magician turned inexperienced mentalist.
Sure to the general public the distinction is irrelevant, this side of the pond a mentalist is a nut job, no more no less. The general public either call us mind readers or magicians and to use Bob's comments about Larry Becker as an example the ultimate yardstick of a great performer is when the audience saw "insert your name here" rather than a magician, mentalist, mental magician, trickster, psychic entertainer or whatever label you want to put on what we do. This side of the pond DB has reached that level where people go to see DB, sure if pushed people will label him either a magician or mind reader but the average guy on the street merely thinks of him as DB. However to us the distinction matters just as to a painter it matters whether he's an impressionist or whatever other categories of artists there are whilst to the general public he's simply a painter. Why is it important to understand the distinction? Well consistency and congruence for starters, put one piece of mental magic into a serious mentalism show and the illusion collapses like a house of cards, the audiences perception of you shifts in an instant. But if it's entertaining surely it doesn't matter right? It does if you want to rise above mediocrity. Yes the ultimate goal is to entertain but let's face it many people will be entertained by you smacking yourself hard in the face with a frying pan, does that make such an act a valid inclusion in a mentalism show? Well ok DB did manage to get some mileage out of getting a woman to slap him but I'm sure you get the point I was making. In order to excel at the art you need to respect the art and in order to respect the art you need to understand the art. Alas I started late and don't have enough of my lifetime left to truly understand the art but I'll take whatever benefit I can from the head start that guys like Bob are willing to share coupled with whatever lessons that performing for audiences over the last 30 years I can translate onto the stage. Even though I started too late to acheive greatness, probably too late to be able to turn pro, I will never stop trying to appreciate, respect and understand this art. To me, when someone like Bob hands me a nice and clearly defined piece of understanding like the definition in the original post, and the more detailed explanations in his books, well that's one gift horse I ain't looking in the mouth!! Mark |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10972 Posts
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On May 21, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote This is exactly what I'm talking about. You are wrong here and very over-simplfying it. As long as this is your belief, all beliefs following this will likely also be incorrect. This is the point I was making in my last post. You don't know what you don't know. And if what you think you know is incorrect but you don't accept or realize it how can you accept a different perspective if you think you know something you don't? Make sense. It's not just about the performance. It's much more and much deeper with multi-facets. Mentalism needs to be studied to be understood. It's not plug and play and depending on how well you perform it that will make it successful. This mentality of yours greatly discredits the intelligence and true perspectives of audiences. All of your views are from the performers perspectives. This is the first rule that many performers violate. A mentalism audience is different from a magic audience. Expectations, perceptions and beliefs. I suggest more study to obtain a better understanding before making blanket statements that you've heard from others along the way that you are accepting as fact and in turn becoming your own opinions without merit. It is in yours and others best interests to listen to those that speak from experience and have a much better true understanding form doing it in the real world with real audiences than those that "dab" in metalism or are arm-char mentalists. |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4044 Posts
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Six freaking pages? There must be 3,142 threads about this and Bob patiently explains over and over the same definitions in each of them.
It's a bit of a catch 22 because once you do realize the difference...it's patently obvious. But until you do...you wonder what the fuss is all about. How's this for a definition: if you don't know the difference you're doing mental magic. When you DO know the difference, you're doing mentalism. There. That ought to settle this once and for all. You're welcome. 
David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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That's a pretty succinct explanation, David.
But you know as well as I do that it won't settle anything, even though you're exactly right. |
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MatthewSims Special user 752 Posts
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I say we all stop talking, go to the bookshelf and re read Practical Mental Magic and The Artful Mentalsim, and then meet back here a year from today!
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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I'm getting too old to plan that far in advance.
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Mark_Chandaue Inner circle Essex UK 4205 Posts
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On May 22, 2014, David Thiel wrote: Haha not quite, there are some that DO know the difference that choose to do mental magic. Mark |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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True. So let's modify it to say, "When you DO know the difference, then you'll know if you're doing mentalism."
Or why not paraphrase Dunninger: For those who know the difference No explanation is necessary. For those who don't None is possible. (Unless they pay close attention) |
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insight Inner circle 3095 Posts
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Mindpro,
Your definition of a mentalism performance is exclusionary, and I think it is not accurate to say that a performance done one-on-one (such as what Atlas has done with so many for his upcoming Train Tracking) or a performance done on the radio (such as what The Amazing Kreskin, Rich Ferguson, and countless others have done so many times) does not qualify as a "performance". The beauty of our art is that it offers multiple channels of performing. To say that performing for one-person does not qualify as a "mentalism performance" is elementary thinking at best, and exclusionary and divisive at worst. As mentalists, we must all respect each others performance preferences, and it's important to learn from them. After all, the only way that our art can continue to sustain itself and the only way that we, as performers, can continue to grow, is to respect each other and learn from each other. Thanks for listening. Regards, Mike Quote:
On May 21, 2014, Mindpro wrote: |
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Dorianmagic New user 76 Posts
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Sometimes it's hard to keep up with the intellectual pressure of these conversations. Read the book (The Artful Mentalism of Bob Cassidy) and you'll understand ~ or not. "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."
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Rolyan Special user I'm fencing in my land; so far there are 590 Posts
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It's worth pointing out that not every 'magician' struggles with the distinction. I started performing many years ago. I have performed professionally as a magician (table hopping, formal close up, stage and cabaret. Occasionally in my act I included mental magic. I know that my audience knew it was a trick, the same as the other effects. I have also performed as a mentalist, and I know that my audience perceived the act differently.
So to me the distinction is as obvious and as simple as Bob Cassidy describes. But I also remember when I was 14 and had the certainty of youth. I don't mind Zach disagreeing, it's all part of life. If nothing more, he's given us the nickname Bob Freaking Cassidy which try as I might I can't get out of my head! |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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It must be my hair. I often get that reaction.
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts
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I get it. Magic and mentalism is very different from each other. But when it comes down to it, it is all an illusion. The difference is that mentalism is real seeming, while magic is obviously a trick. What I don't understand is why it is such a huge deal. Many of these mentalist seem offended to even be put in the same category as a magician. This is simply my interpretation of this particular thread, but I still don't understand it. Could someone explain it to me please because I genuinely want to know why it is so insulting to be a called a magician.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4044 Posts
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No, Zach. Your presumption that "it's insulting to be called a magician" is inaccurate.
It's not insulting to call a mentalist a magician -- particularly when so many of us come from magic backgrounds. But it's completely inaccurate...because they are two completely different things. And it's frustrating to constantly have to explain that. Most of us still love magic -- and have great respect for magicians. But it's like insisting that apples and grapes are the same thing, because they are both varieties of fruit. They each have different tastes, textures...they are entirely different, although distantly related things. Take a minute to search the many threads on this very topic, if you really want the information. It gets discussed here over and over and over and over and over and over again. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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Jeff Wassom Elite user 493 Posts
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Zach invest 20+ years in something first before asking 'what's the big deal?' lol
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts
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Quote:
On May 22, 2014, Jeff Wassom wrote: I'll get back to you 20 years from now.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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Posted: May 22, 2014 02:11 am 
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