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Jeff Wassom Elite user 493 Posts 
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Zach, think about some one who has invested 20 years in the martial art of Thai Boxing, with much of that time being on the receiving end of the beatings one has to naturally go through to achieve competence.
Now imagine some one who hasn't invested any time comparitively calling you angry when THEY take offense at your generous attempts to educate them in your art, and then referring to it as 'kick-boxing' and that it's just 'another' martial art. To the person who has put their butt on the line and freely lend hard won experience to help others achieve some form of competence for the love of the craft, it does matter. ;o) |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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Quote:
On May 21, 2014, insight wrote: OF COURSE it is- if you were to be honest with them. |
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Athos Elite user NADO - Mind reader 481 Posts
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The difference between magic and mentalism is the performer.
NADO
«How much of a gift it would be to really know what someone is thinking of?» - Steeve Blanchet, news anchor, TVA «Here is someone that truly uses his powers for good.» - David Meclomesnil, weekend radio. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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Quote:
On May 21, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote: It IS a big deal, because if you don't understand it you will never really be able to present it at its best. And, Zach, no offense but you're only fourteen years old, right? No problem. I was fourteen once too. (A LONG time ago in 1963) I was performing professionally, as have some others here, for decades before you were born. Maybe you'd be better off just sitting back and listening rather than telling us what is important and what isn't. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 11165 Posts
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Those that do not do this for a living and have not devoted your adult life and career to this can not possibly understand it on the levels tat are trying to be explained, as this thread clearly demonstrates.
Simply put if you do not know the difference or cannot tell the difference, the problem is you. This is not meant as a slam but rather as a fact pointing out the obvious. It always amazes me why some here post about things they know little or nothing about, and then would rather defend their uneducated perspective or "opinions" rather than putting in the effort to learn from those that are trying to share. Again it IS a big deal when you are someone who makes their living off of this on a daily basis and your family depends on it for support and survival. It is much more than just the performer. It begins with an understand of the true fundamental differences, then acknowledging and respecting them. |
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insight Inner circle 3095 Posts
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Bob, I just finished a performance, and before I started, I was honest with my audience and told my audience the following: "Mentalism is simply the art of presenting seemingly paranormal abilities, particularly mind reading, as a form of entertainment. I hope you all are entertained today." Based on what you have written in this thread, I am guilty of exposure. I believe I am not, and I welcome others to chime in whether or not I am guilty of exposure.
Regards, Mike Quote:
On May 21, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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Why you felt the need to tell your audience that is beyond me. It's a definition intended for mentalists. And you shouldn't have to TELL your audience that your show is presented in an entertaining manner. They should be able to figure that out for themselves.
Seems like you have a strong case of magician's guilt. But I'm not here to argue with you. You can take my advice or leave it. |
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insight Inner circle 3095 Posts
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No worries, I don't see this as arguing, just healthy discourse on a topic that is very interesting (for a lot of us, based on all of the messages in this thread). I still believe that what I did was not exposure. I adjust the way I open, so I wouldn't necessarily always provide this introduction before a performance. Per this thread, it seems that the only agreement regarding the difference between mentalism and mental magic is that there is...no agreement.
Regards, Mike |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 11165 Posts
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I couldn't agree more. Is it magician's guilt. You might as well use trade names for effects as well. why would you want to do that and discredit yourself and the art? "Seemingly" anything says it isn't real and is saying your a fake. Why? Why say anything? Why?
What good does it do? What purpose does it serve? Why??? |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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Quote:
On May 21, 2014, insight wrote: The disagreement is largely among newcomers and amateurs. Every successful working pro I know understands the difference quite well. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 11165 Posts
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Quote:
On May 21, 2014, insight wrote: I guess I disagree with this too. Those that seem to understand it agree fine, it those that don't or resist that aren't seeing it. As I've said many times, this is a magician's thing. Those that come to mentalism from other means (not by magic) never seem to have this issue. |
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sandsjr Special user 840 Posts
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Quote:
Bob, I just finished a performance, and before I started, I was honest with my audience and told my audience the following: "Mentalism is simply the art of presenting seemingly paranormal abilities, particularly mind reading, as a form of entertainment. I hope you all are entertained today." Based on what you have written in this thread, I am guilty of exposure. I believe I am not, and I welcome others to chime in whether or not I am guilty of exposure. Mike, here's another way to look at it. You cheat your audience when you tell them they're not going to see what they came there for... BUMMER. Imagine going to a haunted house and before the guy jumps out to scare you he cheerfully approaches you with his mask off and introduces himself. Then proceeds to tell you he's not a real monster. Next he says, "Hold on, let me get my mask back on.... boo! BUMMER Just a thought. |
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insight Inner circle 3095 Posts
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Good thoughts on this, and I'm not claiming that my approach was the most effective one. But, what I am saying is that defining mentalism IS NOT EXPOSURE. So far, only one mentalist thinks what I did was exposure.
Regards, Mike quote]On May 21, 2014, sandsjr wrote: Quote:
Bob, I just finished a performance, and before I started, I was honest with my audience and told my audience the following: "Mentalism is simply the art of presenting seemingly paranormal abilities, particularly mind reading, as a form of entertainment. I hope you all are entertained today." Based on what you have written in this thread, I am guilty of exposure. I believe I am not, and I welcome others to chime in whether or not I am guilty of exposure. Mike, here's another way to look at it. You cheat your audience when you tell them they're not going to see what they came there for... BUMMER. Imagine going to a haunted house and before the guy jumps out to scare you he cheerfully approaches you with his mask off and introduces himself. Then proceeds to tell you he's not a real monster. Next he says, "Hold on, let me get my mask back on.... boo! BUMMER Just a thought. [/quote] |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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Insight-
Your missing the point. What you said wasn't exposure of the methods of your specific effects. It was, instead, a blatant admission that what you were doing was fake. Isn't it rather obvious that the definitions we have AMONGST OURSELVES for mentalism and mental magic aren't meant to be explained to the general public? Seriously, would you mind telling us how long you've been doing mentalism, if you perform professionally, and what kinds of audiences do you perform for? Because I still don't understand why you actually defined the art to them as you did. (Especially saying that what you do is done in an entertaining manner- that part had me laughing out loud. You shouldn't have to tell an audience that you're entertaining.) |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts
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Quote:
On May 21, 2014, Jeff Wassom wrote: Sorry if I offended you, but when you think about it, the only difference between mentalism, and mental magic is the performance. I will admit that usually mentalism is harder, but it is a similar art form. There are 6 pages of people arguing out the difference, so don't you think it has gone to far?
Reality is a real killjoy.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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It's just as well that magicians don't understand the difference. Too many of them are getting into mentalism anyway and butchering it.
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insight Inner circle 3095 Posts
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Bob,
I have been performing mentalism professionally for quite some time, and I'm glad you agree with me that it wasn't exposure. I'm also glad you asked who the audience was. In this case, I was on a radio show, and I performed 2 effects. One for the radio show hosts, and one for the listeners. I was asked to describe what mentalism is, and one of the hosts informed me that her dad had passed away and that she was genuinely seeking to communicate with him. I felt that it was important for me to do the right thing, and be honest with respect to the definition. I am not always this "open" when it comes to defining the term, but I adjusted my response based on the conditions and the gravity of what was being asked. Regards, Mike Quote:
On May 21, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts
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Quote:
On May 21, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: You stated on the first post of this thread that the only difference is that when the spectator sees mental magic they see a trick, and when they see mentalism the see psychic powers. That would be determined be performance, therefor performance is the only difference.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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There are a LOT of other factors. Persona, back story, effect selection, consistency of effect, etc. What I wrote in the first post was a very brief excerpt from the much more detail analysis given in the rest of the book.
But please feel free to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. |
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sandsjr Special user 840 Posts
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The good part with all of this is there will ALWAYS be people who believe and there will always be people that don't and there will always be people who are unsure... no matter what anybody says or does to convince them otherwise. Performers who know their stuff will never run out of eager spectators to mystify!
That said, have a wonderful time performing any way you desire. In the end, the only person it'll probably end up mattering to is you. |
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Posted: May 21, 2014 08:50 pm 
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