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JohnWells
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There's nothing like purchasing a "new method" that lets me play the "how many previous inventions of this can I think of off the top of my head" game. While I suppose if you've never read anything at all about billet technique or mentalism, the ideas in IDS 2.0 might seem new, but surely the idea of ripping a business card in half to "create" an impromptu dummy doesn't warrant re-publication of standard methodology.
NeilS
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Sounds like a 'rip' off in more ways than one!
David Numen
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Oh dear John my friend - you should really have known better!
Amirá
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Quote:
On 2013-02-20 04:21, JohnWells wrote:
There's nothing like purchasing a "new method" that lets me play the "how many previous inventions of this can I think of off the top of my head" game. While I suppose if you've never read anything at all about billet technique or mentalism, the ideas in IDS 2.0 might seem new, but surely the idea of ripping a business card in half to "create" an impromptu dummy doesn't warrant re-publication of standard methodology.



John:

For the sake of clearness, I publish IDS originally on my eBook/Book "Mysteries Anywhere". After that in a separate document , "IDS 2.0" , I revisit the effect giving the reader new ideas about working completely surrounded, for Q&A, etc.

If you consider my effect as original just because I take a paper and make 2 billets, you didn't get it at all.

Why did you think that it was a "new method" after all?
Do you feel deceived if you buy a new CT and find out that it´s basically the same that Annemann teach us in his "Mental Bargain" ?

IDS is a routine that allows the performer to have a secure and simple technique to know information. Obviously isn't a completely new approach, but I know that adds something new to existing techniques.



Can you please elaborate a little more your argument? What is the standard methodology that are you referring? Peeking at a billet secretly ?
If that´s your argument, sorry but you will feel the same with any new publication.

The description on my eBook is clear and at least, if other similar experience happens in the future, please contact me privately with your arguments and I will gladly will help you to feel that you money took value.


Creating similar approaches to Mentalism is something that happens.I state my credits and inspiration clearly but if you know that my work is similar to other one published, you can tell me and I can add further reference without a problem.
I don't want to rip-off anyone and I never will do it. For me this art and practice is serious and I give it the respect that deserves.

Best
Pablo
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Mentalism Center: The best online space to get quality Mentalism
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JohnWells
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1. If a routine does not add to the published record, I do not believe it should be published. That is, if neither the method, effect, nor presentation represents a marked improvement or innovation on previously published material, the routine is a waste of space, and purchasing it is a waste of money thaat could subsidize legitimate creativity. This work has nothing, not its methodology, efect, or presentation (limited though the latter may be) that goes beyond the source material. Everything here is in Switchcraft, Annemann, or Cassidy.

2. Properly speaking, there is no peek. In common parlance, a "peek" is the secret opening of a billet to glimpse the contents. This is properly called a "read". It's a switch and read, straight out of Switchcraft, Cassidy, or Annemann. While this is a technicality, it is, nonetheless, something some buyers might like to know beforehand. I they'reexpecting what the rest of the mentalism world call a peek, they will not find it in this manuscript.

3. Given my primary point, that nothing in this manuscript adds to the source material, it also fails to meet the standards set by the source material in that it is incomplete. Anyone with even the meagerest knowledge of billet work does not need this book. Anyone with no knowledge cannot use it because it doesn't teach even a rudimentary switch. Were it complete in this regard, the person with no knowledge of billet work might find something usefull, but as it is, the student is better served buying something with substance.

I would not call this a rip off as the people whose ideas he uses are crediited. Even with the poor writing, as much a function of fractured English as anything else, I would have no quibble with this were there a single original idea in it.
JohnWells
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Quote:
1. If you consider my effect as original just because I take a paper and make 2 billets, you didn't get it at all.

2. Do you feel deceived if you buy a new CT and find out that it´s basically the same that Annemann teach us in his "Mental Bargain" ?

3. IDS is a routine that allows the performer to have a secure and simple technique to know information. Obviously isn't a completely new approach, but I know that adds something new to existing techniques.


4. Can you please elaborate a little more your argument? What is the standard methodology that are you referring? Peeking at a billet secretly ?
If that´s your argument, sorry but you will feel the same with any new publication.

5. The description on my eBook is clear and at least, if other similar experience happens in the future, please contact me privately with your arguments and I will gladly will help you to feel that you money took value.


6. Creating similar approaches to Mentalism is something that happens.I state my credits and inspiration clearly but if you know that my work is similar to other one published, you can tell me and I can add further reference without a problem.
I don't want to rip-off anyone and I never will do it. For me this art and practice is serious and I give it the respect that deserves.



1. Indeed I don't get what you are trying to say with this sentence.

2.Yes I would, if it is exactly what Anemann, and Ovette, and Koran have already published.

3. Give me a single example of an idea or technique not already represented in the public record, and I will concede the point.

4.The particular way of gatting the peek has been published by Annemann, Cassidy, Bresler (I keep going back to these three, but they are products most of us have). Show me what's new in your method.

5. If I wanted my money back, I might simply complain privately, but my issue is less about my annoyance at wasting money and more a severe displeasure at an all too common trend in publishing redundant material. I have a long standing rule of never saying anything privately that I will not say publicly.

6. I have stated that I woul not call your ebook a rip off, and I do not. Let me be clear, the ebook is not bad, but redundant. As part of a larger publication, I have no objection to it. As a single release at its price tag I find it offensive.
Amirá
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Quote:
On 2013-02-20 07:59, JohnWells wrote:
1. If a routine does not add to the published record, I do not believe it should be published. That is, if neither the method, effect, nor presentation represents a marked improvement or innovation on previously published material, the routine is a waste of space, and purchasing it is a waste of money thaat could subsidize legitimate creativity. This work has nothing, not its methodology, efect, or presentation (limited though the latter may be) that goes beyond the source material. Everything here is in Switchcraft, Annemann, or Cassidy.

2. Properly speaking, there is no peek. In common parlance, a "peek" is the secret opening of a billet to glimpse the contents. This is properly called a "read". It's a switch and read, straight out of Switchcraft, Cassidy, or Annemann. While this is a technicality, it is, nonetheless, something some buyers might like to know beforehand. I they'reexpecting what the rest of the mentalism world call a peek, they will not find it in this manuscript.

3. Given my primary point, that nothing in this manuscript adds to the source material, it also fails to meet the standards set by the source material in that it is incomplete. Anyone with even the meagerest knowledge of billet work does not need this book. Anyone with no knowledge cannot use it because it doesn't teach even a rudimentary switch. Were it complete in this regard, the person with no knowledge of billet work might find something usefull, but as it is, the student is better served buying something with substance.

I would not call this a rip off as the people whose ideas he uses are crediited. Even with the poor writing, as much a function of fractured English as anything else, I would have no quibble with this were there a single original idea in it.



Fair argument John. Sorry that you feel in this way. I will PM you.

I still don't agree that my IDS is just a mixture of old ideas. Even that can be a valid new product when something new is added, and I still think that the specific document that are you referring , "IDS 2.0" , has those new ideas that are valuable in my opinion.
You are right about that peek/read issue. IDS uses a read technique that thanks to the routining, the performer can do it easily.
This is new at all ? No, but it´s my take and I know that several knowledgeable performers have IDS in his toolkit.

For others: If you want a new approach to billet work, in IDS 2.0 you will NOT find it.
You will find on there a real world routine that I have from several years. Simple and workable.


Best
Pablo
Performer and Author

Mentalism Center: The best online space to get quality Mentalism
www.mentalismcenter.com

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JohnWells
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Again, I ask for a single concrete example of a specific idea (a method, effect, or presentational ploy) not already in the common published record. For the record, I use this exact routine all the time, but I learned it from the sources cited above.
Amirá
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Quote:
On 2013-02-20 08:14, JohnWells wrote:
Again, I ask for a single concrete example of a specific idea (a method, effect, or presentational ploy) not already in the common published record. For the record, I use this exact routine all the time, but I learned it from the sources cited above.


I will not reply this on a public space John, but on IDS 2.0 there are several approaches and ideas that I consider valuable and as a reader I can add to my repertoire.


Best
Pablo
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Mentalism Center: The best online space to get quality Mentalism
www.mentalismcenter.com

Arkanosophy: The Boutique for Mystery Performers
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Smoking Camel
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Bruce Bernstein covers this sort of publishing extensively in his "reading between the lines" essay in "Unreal." I agree with John - as someone who can read between the lines - I to find the price tag on variations offensive and It angers me when I spend money on it only to realise after the fact that nothing new has really been added.

I bought an ebook from a different author a few weeks back that was basically a variation of a well known effect by Luke Jermay that didn't really add anything new to the already published effect andI was very recently about the buy the scantily clad drawing duplication until someone mentioned it was basically ODDS on steroids.

Im starting to think that it would be a good idea for people publishing new material to include the credits in their add copy so that those that are well read and can read between the lines can make a better judgement on whether or not to buy the product. I know for sure that I will no longer be making an ebook purchase unless the author is willing to disclose the credits before I purchase. If they wont hand them over then I'm not buying. If they do hand them over and I buy and I find they havent credited properly and the effect is not a real improvement then I'm asking for my cash back.

Including credits in add copy is maybe not something that authors would like to do because it may have a dent in sales.... but then again if you are selling a product and you are 100% focused on ensuring that you deliver value to your customers, why would you not want to do everything possible to ensure your customers are buying products that are a good fit for them?



Back on topic - Amira - I havent read this work so I cant comment specifically about whether or not this is something truly new - I am offering my opinion on the issues that this thread has bought up.... again.
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innercirclewannabe
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"If they do hand them over and I buy and I find they havent credited properly and the effect is not a real improvement then I'm asking for my cash back".

Good luck with that!

I agree with you though. We have all been stung in the past, and no doubt, we will be again in the future!

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me"!

I make it my business to NEVER buy again from an author or creator who I feel has ripped me off!
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
JohnWells
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Part of my rancor over the issue comes from my background in academia. If it's been done before, you don't publish. Plain as that. I have no objection to paying for a variation, but it should go beyond the source material. The same effect by markedly similar means does not pass the "publish worthy" test in my book.
Smoking Camel
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Quote:
On 2013-02-20 15:35, innercirclewannabe wrote:
"If they do hand them over and I buy and I find they havent credited properly and the effect is not a real improvement then I'm asking for my cash back".

Good luck with that!




Indeed - the author doesn't necessarily have to comply with my request... I'm just stating what I think is the best decision making criteria and way to manage purchases given the sheer volume of stuff coming onto the market. I may miss some real gems if the authors don't want to reveal credits but then again at least ive in some way mitigated the risk of being burnt.
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Smoking Camel
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I no longer smoke camel cigarettes.
Smoking Camel
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Quote:
On 2013-02-20 15:46, JohnWells wrote:
Part of my rancor over the issue comes from my background in academia. If it's been done before, you don't publish. Plain as that. I have no objection to paying for a variation, but it should go beyond the source material. The same effect by markedly similar means does not pass the "publish worthy" test in my book.


Indeed - do you think that if you had a proper list of credits and the add copy you could assertion whether or not what an effect passes the "publish worthy" test? (assuming the add copy was not misleading)
I no longer smoke camel cigarettes.
magicman29
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On 2013-02-20 09:09, Vincent V. wrote:
Pablo, I really hate the way you try to sell us your **** on every single post.


Then what the hell are you doing here reading them so,
If you don't like them then #### off to another topic!

Kieran
JohnWells
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Smoking CAmel, probably not, or the credits would need to be so detailed as to let me, more or less, reconstruct the method if I know the source material which is a bit of a non-starter in terms of sales. What would be helpful is the sort of thing suggested by Doug Dyment, that anally retentive wild man of such devilish creativity: that authors explain why their work is an improvement on existing methods/presentations. His own r2-d2 is an excellent example. The ad tells you, very clearly, the definciencies he was attempting to correct in other tears. That sort of paradigm would reduce the pointless publication of redundant materials, and, in curtailing much "salesman speak", permit more effective pre-purchase evaluation of material. To paraphrase Doug, don't just tell me it's good, tell me why.
Smoking Camel
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Quote:
On 2013-02-20 16:22, JohnWells wrote:
Smoking CAmel, probably not, or the credits would need to be so detailed as to let me, more or less, reconstruct the method if I know the source material which is a bit of a non-starter in terms of sales. What would be helpful is the sort of thing suggested by Doug Dyment, that anally retentive wild man of such devilish creativity: that authors explain why their work is an improvement on existing methods/presentations. His own r2-d2 is an excellent example. The ad tells you, very clearly, the definciencies he was attempting to correct in other tears. That sort of paradigm would reduce the pointless publication of redundant materials, and, in curtailing much "salesman speak", permit more effective pre-purchase evaluation of material. To paraphrase Doug, don't just tell me it's good, tell me why.


Thanks for this. This sort of questioning is common in other types of purchases e.g when the new ipad comes out people look to see if its worth upgrading.... they will be asking why it's better. I don't see why we shouldn't be asking the same questions here: Who have you credited in this work? Why do you think this is an improvement on what they've already released?

To be fair to Amira - he did release an effect a while back called 2 thoughts - I was a bit hesitant to buy because it sounded like a variation of one of Looches/cassidys effects - he clearly explained where the departure was, what he had improved and added etc, I was satisfied with his answer and was happy with the purchase.
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Amirá
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John:

The description of what is inside of my eBook is clear


"Lose the fear of billets with IDS 2.0

Originally published in "Mysteries Anywhere", IDS gives you the opportunity to work with billets (pieces of paper that contains information) in a simple, easy and impromptu way.

No preparation (Anywhere Mentalism)
Borrowed material
Any type of paper
Full billet p**k

In IDS 2.0 you will find not only the original routine, but also new techniques and routines using the same thinking from the original routine.
You will also get access to a streaming video in which you can gain visual aid. "



If you knew how to do already that, why did you get my eBook?


In the eBook I explain my routine and the buyer got what its said on the description. Its fair on my opinion and I am still holding my argument about that with this publication I contibute in a positive way.

I don't think that a list of credits can help in this. When we get a product we are getting a secret.
Recently j got one product and I learn something not completely new, but I feel good becausr it was a new use of an old technique.
I can understand a complaint if my eBook is a complete rip-off of other product. I know and you know that this isn't the case.

Just a case of different criterias, something in which I cant do much.
Your criteria of what could be publicated is different to mine and I understand your point.


Best
Pablo
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Mentalism Center: The best online space to get quality Mentalism
www.mentalismcenter.com

Arkanosophy: The Boutique for Mystery Performers
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Amirá
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Quote:
On 2013-02-20 16:52, Smoking Camel wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-02-20 16:22, JohnWells wrote:
Smoking CAmel, probably not, or the credits would need to be so detailed as to let me, more or less, reconstruct the method if I know the source material which is a bit of a non-starter in terms of sales. What would be helpful is the sort of thing suggested by Doug Dyment, that anally retentive wild man of such devilish creativity: that authors explain why their work is an improvement on existing methods/presentations. His own r2-d2 is an excellent example. The ad tells you, very clearly, the definciencies he was attempting to correct in other tears. That sort of paradigm would reduce the pointless publication of redundant materials, and, in curtailing much "salesman speak", permit more effective pre-purchase evaluation of material. To paraphrase Doug, don't just tell me it's good, tell me why.


Thanks for this. This sort of questioning is common in other types of purchases e.g when the new ipad comes out people look to see if its worth upgrading.... they will be asking why it's better. I don't see why we shouldn't be asking the same questions here: Who have you credited in this work? Why do you think this is an improvement on what they've already released?

To be fair to Amira - he did release an effect a while back called 2 thoughts - I was a bit hesitant to buy because it sounded like a variation of one of Looches/cassidys effects - he clearly explained where the departure was, what he had improved and added etc, I was satisfied with his answer and was happy with the purchase.



2 Thoughts is an excellent example on this. This routine can be seen (in a simplistic way) just as an old classic technique with a little finesse.
Well, this little finesse , in my own criteria, is enough to think that I can offer it as a valid release.


The same happens in here, IDS is a billet routine that is similar to other previous works ( and I state my credits and further references clearly) , so in my opinion I did correctly.


Best
Pablo
Performer and Author

Mentalism Center: The best online space to get quality Mentalism
www.mentalismcenter.com

Arkanosophy: The Boutique for Mystery Performers
www.arkanosophy.com
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