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ElliottB
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Is this thread talking about “The Instant Dummy Billet” from “Secrets of the Masters Volume 1? As noted in my credits, the idea wasn’t mine – I got it from Annemann’s “Attention Mentalists” and Fogel’s “Beyond the Veil.” That said, I was really excited to rediscover the idea and more than happy to share the discovery with my mailing list, as it solved a problem many have with Switchwork.
ElliottB
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On 2013-02-20 12:40, Amirá wrote:
Quote:

I remember to read Swithcraft after Elliot's commentary about my routine and the "Pussilanimous Read", and I decide to publish my own because I think that have advantages that the previous one doesn't have.




Commentary?

I am sure that I must have said something somewhere, but, unfortunately, aside from my preceding post, I don’t remember the details or specifics. Could you please clarify?

I am only posting here because I saw my name came up and I am trying to figure out what this is all about.
JohnWells
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Quote:
1. The description of what is inside of my eBook is clear

2.If you knew how to do already that, why did you get my eBook?

3.In the eBook I explain my routine and the buyer got what its said on the description. Its fair on my opinion and I am still holding my argument about that with this publication I contibute in a positive way.

4.Just a case of different criterias, something in which I cant do much.
Your criteria of what could be publicated is different to mine and I understand your point.



1. That has never been in dispute. The matter of "peek" versus "read" is a technicality.

2. I know how to do lots of things, but there may always be a new wrinkle to learn. In this case, not so. I can catalogue the publication history of every step of every method in the text, most of it off the top of my head. If I have not a single "good idea" moment in reading a text several times, then I tend to dislike it. I had several "good idea" moments with IDS, all followed by "I remember where so and so published that". There was, as the officer said, "nothing to see here".

3. I'd consiider it a neutral contribution. If you taught a switch, it would at least be useful. But you don't...

4. I don't expect you to agree, though I think my criteria better reflect the general consensus among mentalists who write for the community. For my own part, I could not, in good ethical conscience, publish this as a stand alone product.

At this point, there is nothing more for me to say.
Amirá
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Quote:
On 2013-02-20 18:02, ElliottB wrote:
On 2013-02-20 12:40, Amirá wrote:
Quote:

I remember to read Swithcraft after Elliot's commentary about my routine and the "Pussilanimous Read", and I decide to publish my own because I think that have advantages that the previous one doesn't have.




Commentary?

I am sure that I must have said something somewhere, but, unfortunately, aside from my preceding post, I don’t remember the details or specifics. Could you please clarify?

I am only posting here because I saw my name came up and I am trying to figure out what this is all about.


Elliot:

John claims that my IDS effect doesn't add any new to billet work and for that reason it´s a "waste of money" because is just a reharsh of your work and others.
I add that my routine has difference with the "Pussilanimous Read" that you publish in your great eBook. First of all as you know I came up with this independently and after you read my eBook several years ago you told me that it was similar to your published routine. Fair, I place proper reference (no credits due the fact I didn't knew the routine before my publication).

If you don't have a copy of your eBook ( the original eBook in which my routine appears) let me know and I will send you other copy.

I state that in my opinion has advantages because my routine fits in the criteria of "Anywhere Mentalism", in which I don't need previous preparation to do it.


Best
Pablo
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Amirá
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Quote:
On 2013-02-20 18:05, JohnWells wrote:
Quote:
1. The description of what is inside of my eBook is clear

2.If you knew how to do already that, why did you get my eBook?

3.In the eBook I explain my routine and the buyer got what its said on the description. Its fair on my opinion and I am still holding my argument about that with this publication I contibute in a positive way.

4.Just a case of different criterias, something in which I cant do much.
Your criteria of what could be publicated is different to mine and I understand your point.



1. That has never been in dispute. The matter of "peek" versus "read" is a technicality.

2. I know how to do lots of things, but there may always be a new wrinkle to learn. In this case, not so. I can catalogue the publication history of every step of every method in the text, most of it off the top of my head. If I have not a single "good idea" moment in reading a text several times, then I tend to dislike it. I had several "good idea" moments with IDS, all followed by "I remember where so and so published that". There was, as the officer said, "nothing to see here".

3. I'd consiider it a neutral contribution. If you taught a switch, it would at least be useful. But you don't...

4. I don't expect you to agree, though I think my criteria better reflect the general consensus among mentalists who write for the community. For my own part, I could not, in good ethical conscience, publish this as a stand alone product.

At this point, there is nothing more for me to say.


Just with the idea of not adding more authors to this discussion, I will not name other person but in the past several others publish their own takes on classic mentalism work without a discussion about being "not worthy". IDS is billet work, nothing new there. The routine, the structure, sure , can be similar to other works, but especifically in my eBook IDS 2.0, there isn't just the original routine, rather several more uses and ideas.
I will just say that in my standards if something new is added, is valuable and worthy to release.
In my perspective , my routine IDS, and especifically my eBook IDS 2.0, has properties that I don't know that were published.

In my opinion , my routine has a new wrinkle, in your opinion, don't. Fair

If you think that it was a waste of money, it´s fair, it´s your opinion.
But whats the intention of your first post? No solid argument. It almost looks like that in recent posts you were other person.


There is a specific "pellet variation" that John told me that it was previously published. I am still waiting for a solid argument about that.


Best
Pablo
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Dr Spektor
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Quote:
On 2013-02-20 17:30, ElliottB wrote:
Is this thread talking about “The Instant Dummy Billet” from “Secrets of the Masters Volume 1? As noted in my credits, the idea wasn’t mine – I got it from Annemann’s “Attention Mentalists” and Fogel’s “Beyond the Veil.” That said, I was really excited to rediscover the idea and more than happy to share the discovery with my mailing list, as it solved a problem many have with Switchwork.


ASIDE: Switchcraft has got to be one of the best value for $ around Smile - buy once and watch the thing grow and grow and grow! After a few years I might have to buy a separate hard drive for the eventual supplement!!!!

ASIDE: Unreal ROCKS Smile - and poor Bruce has been ripped off so many times I'm glad he wrote that Essay and republished the work... its gold stuff

BACK ON TOPIC: Don't own IDS so can't comment - but I will say just like shopping for food, cars or anything else - caveat emptor and do your research ahead... one of the most interesting ploys for getting $ is similar to the $1 per song iTunes model and in app purchases that seem small but add up quick - I have had many patients (including apple employees) buy buy buy as each small item seemed cheap... versus if they bought a larger item which contained full albums, volumes, etc. they would have paid less... I kind of like buying LIBER MENTIS style stuff myself... bulk is good as usually there are a few gems in the lot that make it all worth while IMHO!!!

Caveat Emptor - especially if its Patricia Conley who has a tattoo of that on her arm!
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
David Thiel
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I only read this thread a few minutes ago but I have to say that it's refreshing to see two guys dealing with this issue with respect. I don't have the manuscript in question -- but I've worked with Pablo on several projects -- and I am very glad to see he's not being attacked here because in every dealing with me, he has always conducted himself with the highest degree of integrity.

David
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ElliottB
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Quote:
On 2013-02-20 18:13, Amirá wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-02-20 18:02, ElliottB wrote:
On 2013-02-20 12:40, Amirá wrote:
Quote:

I remember to read Swithcraft after Elliot's commentary about my routine and the "Pussilanimous Read", and I decide to publish my own because I think that have advantages that the previous one doesn't have.




Commentary?

I am sure that I must have said something somewhere, but, unfortunately, aside from my preceding post, I don’t remember the details or specifics. Could you please clarify?

I am only posting here because I saw my name came up and I am trying to figure out what this is all about.


Elliot:


I add that my routine has difference with the "Pussilanimous Read" that you publish in your great eBook. First of all as you know I came up with this independently and after you read my eBook several years ago you told me that it was similar to your published routine. Fair, I place proper reference (no credits due the fact I didn't knew the routine before my publication).


Best

Thank you, Pablo. I could not find it on my computer. But I got this computer recently and the file may be on the old laptop. You mentioned that you referenced my work in your manuscript. I definitely appreciate that. The material in Switchcraft has appeared in more than a few recent works with no credit at all. So I’ll definitely take a reference when I can get one. It shows you have integrity.

(I am assuming that a reference is kind of like a credit.)

Thanks again,

Elliott
ElliottB
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Quote:
On 2013-02-20 15:17, Smoking Camel wrote:
Bruce Bernstein covers this sort of publishing extensively in his "reading between the lines" essay in "Unreal."


LOL. The author of that essay referred me to it on two occasions when I sought permission to print a nice tip and a nice variation in a Switchcraft supplement. At least I thought they were nice Smile

Needless to say, those two items will (unfortunately) not be appearing in Switchcraft supplements anytime ever.
ElliottB
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Quote:
On 2013-02-20 18:31, Dr Spektor wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-02-20 17:30, ElliottB wrote:
Is this thread talking about “The Instant Dummy Billet” from “Secrets of the Masters Volume 1? As noted in my credits, the idea wasn’t mine – I got it from Annemann’s “Attention Mentalists” and Fogel’s “Beyond the Veil.” That said, I was really excited to rediscover the idea and more than happy to share the discovery with my mailing list, as it solved a problem many have with Switchwork.


ASIDE: Switchcraft has got to be one of the best value for $ around Smile - buy once and watch the thing grow and grow and grow! After a few years I might have to buy a separate hard drive for the eventual supplement!!!!



It is in the process of growing again. I am writing two supplements simultaneously; one for Switchcraft and one for Mind Blasters USA.

Sorry for hijacking this thread. My excuse is that my e-book and I were mentioned a few times.
Amirá
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Hope that this discussion maintains this tone of respect and solid arguments.


I will leave for a moment, I have a gig, I will comeback tomorrow.


Best
Pablo
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Mentalism Center: The best online space to get quality Mentalism
www.mentalismcenter.com

Arkanosophy: The Boutique for Mystery Performers
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John C
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I may purchase an item from an "unknown" once. That's enough to know what they are up to. If I like it I go for more. If not I stay away.

J
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JohnWells
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Quote:
There is a specific "pellet variation" that John told me that it was previously published. I am still waiting for a solid argument about that.



I've listed a dozen sources for him to check, though anyone with familiarity with the pellet switch can confirm my assertion.
JohnWells
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Let me clarify, once again, that I dfo not dispute the value of the techniques in this manuscript or their independent origination by Pablo. I dispute whether the contents of the manuscript reflect an adequate improvement over available published work to warrant re-publication. That, to me, is the only issue. Are negligible variations adequate warrant for publishing material?
Paul Shirley
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Quote:
On 2013-02-20 22:49, JohnWells wrote:
Are negligible variations adequate warrant for publishing material?


Hey John Smile

In short, no. I understand your perspective entirely. However, I shall play Devils Advocate for a moment.

Despite some variations having already been in print, unless you are a true historian, or lucky enough to have stumbled upon the same idea in an old book somewhere, how is Pablo to know that it has been previously published. The answer could be: A little more time researching, and asking some of our more knowledgable comrades wether or not the idea has been published, and if so... where. This would allow the creator of a "new" presentation a chance of crediting correctly, and/or working harder on their presentation, to ensure enough difference, and added value has been made.

The down side to this... as some of us know is.. despite having some very knowledgeable friends.... you just can't get all the answers, all the time. Despite an effort to do so.

A second point to consider, is that a collection of ideas... that may have been published over the years in various books, are now ALL in one place. Kind of like a 'best of' C.D Smile
Some of the GEMS that are in PRISM, for example. But... I am glad that Max put his spin on them... and released the collection... as there is no way on earth I would have found the original routines, without scouring for years through old tomes.

Lastly, I feel that even the slightest change to a script, blocking, of handling can make the world of difference to an existing idea. Equivoque for example.. relies on very cleverly thought out scripting, and timing.. And despite reading many variations on the same method... I am always on the search for that one small difference that enhances my performance.

Again... I do understand your frustrations. It seems that every one and their dog is relentlessly releasing PDF's .. within a week of having an idea... without proof reading... or even checking to see if the idea has already been done. Gets on my nerves too. . . but, hopefully some of my 'Devils Advocacy' Smile .... may soften your opinion somewhat.

Cheers fellas.
JohnWells
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Paul, I considered the Devil's position before my initial post. The sausage argument is the strongest (the blending of varied ingredients), but I would posit that all the ingredients, and something very like the completed sausage may be found in Switchcraft. I do think a proper vetting would have solved some problems (the source material are things with which Pablo has an acknowledged familiarity), and, as I've said, in the context of a larger work containing substantive original material, I would have no problem at all. My objection is that excised from a larger context, even with the additions, this manuscript does not represent an improvement, elaboration, innovation, or elucidation of its source material (whether independently developed or not) that warrants its publication.

I would add that those minor points that make so large a difference are less common in the field of billet work, which is principally manipulative. Certainly your equivoque example is valid. Even an identical method with a tweak of presentation can warrant existence (a minor quirk on the cener tear I found in Magick comes to mind), but I find none of that here. The method and presentation are rudimentary. Again, if it taught a basic switch to use (there is a pellet switch, but why would you crumple up a blank piece of paper to uncrumple it a moment later to write on...) I would have less of a complaint as the neophyte would have all the information necessary to use the product.
I have given Pablo an open invitation to demonstrate my error by showing me an original idea in the manuscript. He has asserted there are meaningful variations, and I am asking for clarification as to what those are.
NYNick
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The idea to compare Amira and Max made me near die!!
Love how Amria turns every answer into more advert. He could be very successful salesguy if he sold good stuff everyone needs like soap.
~NYN
Paul Shirley
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Quote:
On 2013-02-21 10:24, NYNick wrote:
The idea to compare Amira and Max made me near die!!
Love how Amria turns every answer into more advert. He could be very successful salesguy if he sold good stuff everyone needs like soap.


Well, Im glad you survived your near death experience, as there was no comparison made (between Max, and Pablo as creators) by me. I was simply using PRISM as an example of a book that is full of routines, most of which have origins in other books by different authors. And... it just happened to be the book I had sat next to me at the Café, while making my post Smile
Paul Shirley
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John,

All very valid points, sir.
Simon (Ted) Edwards
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Hi Paul,
Is PRISM not a compendium of the Color Series booklets? I don't honestly know how many, if any, of the effects in each booklet were republished elsewhere. I certainly think that all were devised by Max and not other authors though.
T.
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