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edshern
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I guess this could be addressed to Richard K. but I ask everyone, since
I haven't seen anyone ask it yet. Also, Richard obviously has additional interest in supporting Genii, which I certainly understand and appreciate & does not need defending.

Why a second forum at Genii? Is everyone there bailing on the Tenyo Forum at the Café?
Are we to make a choice? Here, or there, or both? And what of the guys left at the Café?

Please be civil in your answers. It's important to note that I ask humbly and without pointing fingers, accusations or any subtext other than knowing your thoughts on this, because the truth is I'm a bit confused.

Thanks,

Ed

PS- So I/all can get a full picture I will post this at the Genii too.
Nicolino
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That is a very interesting question.
Let me just say this: looking at the wealth of information here and on the Tenyo blog, it appears as if there wasn't really any factual need for another forum...
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stereo
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Things are actually very simple.

Mr Wizard told me that it was him who had the idea and succeed to convince Richard to make this forum In order to provide a new visibility to John Mazza after his banishment he believes to be an injustice.

In parallel Richard begin to wrote a book about Tenyo, it is logical and normal he want to starts an emulation and create visibility about Tenyo brand so that maximum people are interested about over time. Richard has its own forum, it is logical that I wanted to create a section within this one to share his passion with his members.

So finally the banishment of John Mazza by the Café was an opportunity to legitimize the creation of this forum with a greater argument for freedom of speech and more flexible rules.

It is the combination of two legitimate interest that make this forum was created now.
Nicolino
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Thanks.
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Houdini103126
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Quote:
On 2013-03-10 16:58, edshern wrote:
I guess this could be addressed to Richard K. but I ask everyone, since
I haven't seen anyone ask it yet. Also, Richard obviously has additional interest in supporting Genii, which I certainly understand and appreciate & does not need defending.

Why a second forum at Genii? Is everyone there bailing on the Tenyo Forum at the Café?
Are we to make a choice? Here, or there, or both? And what of the guys left at the Café?

Please be civil in your answers. It's important to note that I ask humbly and without pointing fingers, accusations or any subtext other than knowing your thoughts on this, because the truth is I'm a bit confused.

Thanks,

Ed

PS- So I/all can get a full picture I will post this at the Genii too.


Ed,

I have taken a stab at answering your question over at Genii.
Houdini103126
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Quote:
On 2013-03-10 17:54, Nicolino wrote:
That is a very interesting question.
Let me just say this: looking at the wealth of information here and on the Tenyo blog, it appears as if there wasn't really any factual need for another forum...


Felix,

The Genii Tenyo forum is simply another Tenyo forum to discuss Tenyo magic, it's entirely up to you to participate or not. In fact, you're very much encouraged to register and participate, there is NO DESIRE to pull Magic Café Tenyo of Japan members one way or the other, it's certainly not competitive. There is a difference in forum policies and rules and this might be a compelling reason to use one forum over the other, but it's up to you. I reckon folks will participate on both forums.

I am a forum moderator on the Genii Tenyo forum, all are welcome, despite any past banter, disagreement, or what have you.

-Tom
Houdini103126
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Quote:
On 2013-03-10 18:20, stereo wrote:
Things are actually very simple.

Mr Wizard told me that it was him who had the idea and succeed to convince Richard to make this forum In order to provide a new visibility to John Mazza after his banishment he believes to be an injustice.

In parallel Richard begin to wrote a book about Tenyo, it is logical and normal he want to starts an emulation and create visibility about Tenyo brand so that maximum people are interested about over time. Richard has its own forum, it is logical that I wanted to create a section within this one to share his passion with his members.

So finally the banishment of John Mazza by the Café was an opportunity to legitimize the creation of this forum with a greater argument for freedom of speech and more flexible rules.

It is the combination of two legitimate interest that make this forum was created now.


Not quite.

Richard had the idea of a Tenyo forum before speaking to Mr. Wizard, I'll let Richard speak to that.

What I can say is there is a difference in moderation between The Magic Café forums and The Genii forums. Richard has stated he would have approached the banning of John Mazza differently but the Genii Tenyo forum WAS NOT stood up to profess the innocence of John Mazza. I think the timing was right to actually create the forum and the Mazza situation spurred its creation past procrastination and into action.

If you think about it, there really should have always been a Genii Tenyo forum given past Tenyo coverage in the magazine. There is such a defined collector base now, especially in America and Europe, it really just made sense to create a Tenyo forum at Genii.

The Genii Tenyo forum is just another Tenyo forum, albeit one moderated differently.

Everyone is encouraged to join and participate, there was never any intent to pull folks one way or the other, that will be up to the forum member to decide. Many people haunt multiple forums about a single category or topics.
edshern
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Quote:
On 2013-03-10 18:49, Houdini103126 wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-03-10 18:20, stereo wrote:
Things are actually very simple.

Mr Wizard told me that it was him who had the idea and succeed to convince Richard to make this forum In order to provide a new visibility to John Mazza after his banishment he believes to be an injustice.

In parallel Richard begin to wrote a book about Tenyo, it is logical and normal he want to starts an emulation and create visibility about Tenyo brand so that maximum people are interested about over time. Richard has its own forum, it is logical that I wanted to create a section within this one to share his passion with his members.

So finally the banishment of John Mazza by the Café was an opportunity to legitimize the creation of this forum with a greater argument for freedom of speech and more flexible rules.

It is the combination of two legitimate interest that make this forum was created now.


Not quite.

Richard had the idea of a Tenyo forum before speaking to Mr. Wizard, I'll let Richard speak to that.

What I can say is there is a difference in moderation between The Magic Café forums and The Genii forums. Richard has stated he would have approached the banning of John Mazza differently but the Genii Tenyo forum WAS NOT stood up to profess the innocence of John Mazza. I think the timing was right to actually create the forum and the Mazza situation spurred its creation past procrastination and into action.

If you think about it, there really should have always been a Genii Tenyo forum given past Tenyo coverage in the magazine. There is such a defined collector base now, especially in America and Europe, it really just made sense to create a Tenyo forum at Genii.

The Genii Tenyo forum is just another Tenyo forum, albeit one moderated differently.

Everyone is encouraged to join and participate, there was never any intent to pull folks one way or the other, that will be up to the forum member to decide. Many people haunt multiple forums about a single category or topics.


Fair enough.
Thanks
Ed
Richard Kaufman
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I started the Tenyo category as part of our transition to new software on the Genii Forum. The thought occurred to me a long time ago, and this seemed to be the easiest time to do it since all the software was changing.

I have been reviewing the Tenyo line every year since buying the magazine in 1998. Some may remember that Lubor Fiedler and his Anti-Gravity Rock appeared on the cover of my second issue in February 1999.

Since I am also writing the Tenyo book, it makes sense to have a Tenyo forum in my home--the Genii Forum. Steve Brooks and I have a fine relationship--we are friends and don't like to see disparaging remarks about each others' Forums on either Forum.

John Mazza had nothing to do with my decision to start a Tenyo area on the Genii Forum, and in fact he has already been banned from Genii's Tenyo forum after accidentally sending me an email intended for someone else in which he wrote many nasty and untrue things about me. So, the Tenyo discussions on the internet are now a Mazza-free zone.
edshern
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Ironic Karma ?
cyberdave03
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Quote:
Houdini103126 wrote:
I am a forum moderator on the Genii Tenyo forum, all are welcome, despite any past banter, disagreement, or what have you.

Richard Kaufman wrote:
in fact he [John Mazza] has already been banned from Genii's Tenyo forum after accidentally sending me an email intended for someone else in which he wrote many nasty and untrue things about me


Is it just me, or does anyone else see an incompatibility between these two statements?

In the US, we have a thing called the 1st amendment. Richard, if you don't like what John had to say about you, then tell him off in an email, or on the Genii forum, even. Yes, John can be a bit of a hot head at times, but using your administrative position to ban him from your forum as revenge for bad-mouthing you frankly reeks of abuse of position, and makes it sound like the way the Genii Tenyo forum is ruled really isn't any different than that of the Magic Café.
meridianfan
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Quote:
On 2013-03-10 21:45, cyberdave03 wrote:
Quote:
Houdini103126 wrote:
I am a forum moderator on the Genii Tenyo forum, all are welcome, despite any past banter, disagreement, or what have you.

Richard Kaufman wrote:
in fact he [John Mazza] has already been banned from Genii's Tenyo forum after accidentally sending me an email intended for someone else in which he wrote many nasty and untrue things about me


Is it just me, or does anyone else see an incompatibility between these two statements?

In the US, we have a thing called the 1st amendment. Richard, if you don't like what John had to say about you, then tell him off in an email, or on the Genii forum, even. Yes, John can be a bit of a hot head at times, but using your administrative position to ban him from your forum as revenge for bad-mouthing you frankly reeks of abuse of position, and makes it sound like the way the Genii Tenyo forum is ruled really isn't any different than that of the Magic Café.


Richard,

I think John deserves a second chance here. I have bought many items from him and his descriptions are always very accurate, and I have found him to be a very honest seller. He always sends photos of things he is selling and his assessments on the condition of items have always been spot on. He has been kind enough to provide instructions for people who are missing them (myself included). His add-ons are creative and enrich the Tenyo experience. Perhaps he wrote something without carefully thinking things through? Please reconsider your decision to permanently ban him.
Richard Kaufman
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I generally don't publish private emails, but I will publish the email that John Mazza accidentally sent to me earlier this evening. Perhaps you'll see my point more clearly. He questions both my character and my honesty when in all of these cases I was doing him a favor. I don't need people like that on my Forum:


RK has tried to "Play" me on three separate occasions so be careful.

Just yesterday he tried again, you can read what happened below.

RK attempted to sell me a Paddle Collection (his friends?) for a super high price without the instructions.

10 Paddles without the routines are worthless. Do I come across as stupid? I don't think so.

At first I thought he had the paste-up boards but now I don't think he has them, I think it was another attempt to separate me from my money.

I told him to sell it to "quite a few people who want it."

On another occasion he wanted to trade me the entire ADD-ON collection for an item I need/want, Super Vase a la India. He said he wanted to put the ADD-ONs in the book.

When I agreed to the trade the Super Vase a la India got "lost." I guess he was expecting me to send them for free after that so they can be in the book.

I just ignored him and then he bought some off of ebay and Paypaled me for the rest.

At best he is at least "questionable."

Caveat emptor
John"


So there you have it: according to Mazza, I am "questionable." The editor of Genii, the author and publisher of many books, all of which have been delivered. Genii gets published every month. Yet I'm "questionable." And I've "played" him.

Malarkey.
Richard Kaufman
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He was banned from the Magic Café for selling illegal copies of Tenyo packaging and Tenyo's "specials" tricks that violated Tenyo's copyright.

His Tenyo Add-on for Mobile Illusion illegally uses a photograph of a celebrity.

I've banned him from the Genii Forum for essentially calling me a crook.

CyberDave: you don't understand the first amendment. It gives you the right to stand in the street and say whatever you want. It does NOT give you the right to insinuate that I'm a crook and expect to continue posting on my Forum.
pierredan
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John Mazza banned again?

Say it ain't so Richard.

I can understand you being upset by John's email above but I am lacking the proper context to pass judgement. I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt as it appears this email was not meant to be sent to you and maybe his opinion was based on other considerations.

I have been a Genii subscriber for more than 6 years and have bought the greater part of your books and have nothing to raise that is questionable about you. Always very satisfied with the Genii.

I have also had many dealings with John and he is one of the most honest and fair Tenyo sellers that I have met. He has been very helpful to me in providing me advice about Tenyo collecting and pricing. I always look forward to seeing his clever routines on Tenyo items. I consider myself a good judge of character and I truly believe John is one of the good guys.

John's passion for Tenyo is infectious. He has a lot to contribute regarding Tenyo and I think that our little community will miss out if he is banned yet again.

Please reconsider your decision.
Houdini103126
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Quote:
On 2013-03-10 21:45, cyberdave03 wrote:
Quote:
Houdini103126 wrote:
I am a forum moderator on the Genii Tenyo forum, all are welcome, despite any past banter, disagreement, or what have you.

Richard Kaufman wrote:
in fact he [John Mazza] has already been banned from Genii's Tenyo forum after accidentally sending me an email intended for someone else in which he wrote many nasty and untrue things about me


Is it just me, or does anyone else see an incompatibility between these two statements?

In the US, we have a thing called the 1st amendment. Richard, if you don't like what John had to say about you, then tell him off in an email, or on the Genii forum, even. Yes, John can be a bit of a hot head at times, but using your administrative position to ban him from your forum as revenge for bad-mouthing you frankly reeks of abuse of position, and makes it sound like the way the Genii Tenyo forum is ruled really isn't any different than that of the Magic Café.


How are the statements incompatible? This doesn't make sense.

I posted before Richard did and he posted after I did, the statement I make above was taken out of context. I was specifically speaking about the little cliques and groups that have formed here on the Café that divide us. I was simply saying let bygones be bygones, all are welcome to join the Genii forum. Just promoting the forum a bit as I am a moderator.

I have built and run my own boards before and everyone has a different style of administration and slightly differing policies/rules.

This is a perfect example of how quickly the tides can change. The John Mazza case isn't indicative of any particular way of administering a forum.
MrWizard
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Just when you think all is well the ceiling once again falls in. : (
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Houdini103126
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John was banned from this forum for violating acceptable terms of use (the mods can be more specific). John was banned from the Genii forum for calling Richard a crook to another forum member. It's apples and oranges. The results were the same, the reasons were different.

What you and some others are failing to realize is that Richard felt John should get another chance and gave him that chance on his new forum. John then repaid him by calling him a crook to another Genii forum member. The Genii forum is Richard's forum, why shouldn't he be banned? Richard kindly reached out to John and told him to STOP his copyright infringements and gave him another chance. This latest move was strike three. At this point you begin to see a pattern about someone's character. It's up to the forum owner(s)/admin(s) to determine what constitutes a second, third, or umpteenth chance. It's quite obvious he was given multiple chances and did something really nasty to someone trying to help him. If someone does something nasty to you, should they be given another chance? It's up to you to give them another chance or not. There's nothing to debate. What's so hard to understand about that?

Considering the underhandedness of Mazza's email, what good reason should he be given to respond?

Richard's right about the first amendment, you can stand out on a street and yell what you like (BTW, there isn't such a thing as totally free speech BTW), doing it in a forum privately owned and funded is another story. It's the same across the board with all forums so the point is moot.
Houdini103126
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Quote:
On 2013-03-10 23:23, MrWizard wrote:
Just when you think all is well the ceiling once again falls in. : (


The ceiling is intact =)
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