|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4 [Next] | ||||||||||
magicofCurtis Inner circle Los Angeles 2545 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-03-22 18:39, Steve_Mollett wrote: Totally agree with you Steve and Houdini!
Curtis Lovell II
http://www.CurtisLovell.com http://www.MagicofCurtis.com www.facebook.com/curtislovellii Los Angeles, California - U.S.A. |
|||||||||
AnthonyMaze Loyal user San Diego, Ca 260 Posts |
Very impressive Jay! Thanks for sharing!
...for the 51st time... that is NOT my card...
|
|||||||||
Ian McColl Inner circle 1493 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-03-22 18:44, magicofCurtis wrote: A person WOULD have to think and agree like that when they really cannot bring skill to the table. Houdini could and did bring his skills to his performances. Of all the people I have assisted with prison escapes, I don’t know one who didn’t have the personal drive and self esteem to actually do what was necessary to pull of an escape. Their success was not as much the measured by the media but their personal ability under the most rigorous conditions to get out. Far be it that they, said to the jailer, turn the key to lock and then back to unlock and then remove the key. (refer: Chris Chalen’s Alcatraz escape.) Yes people thought he has escaped but big deal. It’s like magicians who do stuff on TV but cannot do a stage show because they cannot edit LIVE! To go with the notion “what the public THINKS you DO.’ Leads to the most shoddy and dodgy line of entertainment. It’s like sending out the same press release you wrote to every man and his dog and getting lots of write ups which are all worded the same and have similar phrasing. Any fool can have a photo in front of a barred cell door and write up a story to go with it. Any unskilled EA can suggest to a turnkey to give him the key and both the establishment and performer can get some publicity. If you’re only mantra is “THINKS you DO” then I know you haven’t got the goods. It is all pretend.
handcuff keys https://www.facebook.com/groups/274871910110997/
old business https://www.facebook.com/Stockade-locksmiths-276492435716704/ |
|||||||||
jay leslie V.I.P. Southern California 9498 Posts |
I will get off my soapbox after this brief statement: You can't call yourself an escape artist unless you can accept challenges.
Anyone can buy a magic kid, print business cards and call themselves a "Master Magician". Many do that exact thing. Being an artist means you understand the pallet, contrast, complementary colors, how light plays on the object and more. Painting by numbers does not an artist, make.
Jay Leslie
www.TheHouseOfEnchantment.com |
|||||||||
magicbymccauley Special user 830 Posts |
Wow Jay! That's a pretty high standard. Everyone who calls themselves an EA has to accept challenges like a jail cell? SHEESH! That's tough. I'd accept a straight jacket challenge, a lock challenge or a rope challenge but ANY CHALLENGE? Like I dare you to escape a moving prisoner transport van filled air tight with water and live sharks?
Accepting challenges can be dicey. I don't mind someone escaping from a museum as long as they claim they are escaping from a museum. I think the problem with the museum escape is that it made the audience think of it as a jail cell not as a museum. In one of Houdini's books (How to do wrong the right way) he was LIVID, absolutely INCENSED that the method that other imitators used was that of a confederate in a jail break. Houdini accepted tons of challenges but these challenges were ones that he pre-arranged in advance with people who he wanted to challenge him in a particular way, with a particular prop. Is it really a challenge if you think up the challenge? I guess my point is that an escape artist seeks control, while accepting a challenge is a giving up of control: the two are ideologically at odds. The EA wants to stack the deck in his favor while a challenge has the concept of being a fair test of skill. If you walk into another karate school and ask to see the top dog and request a sparring match, now THAT is a challenge. You're asking directly for a fair and open challenge, everything is above board and you are genuinely testing skill against skill. If you and a friend choreograph a fight and agree to display it in a demo at the mall, that is not a challenge, that's an exhibition. Yes there is still risk, but the deck is stacked in your favor. You know what's coming. I think of EA's more like the second and less like the first. But I guess not neccesarily. Your challenge could be a bobby pin and a shim vs. any padlock. That's a real challenge granted that you are really doing it.
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven |
|||||||||
Ian McColl Inner circle 1493 Posts |
Not everything revolves around karate nor needs to be compared to it.
handcuff keys https://www.facebook.com/groups/274871910110997/
old business https://www.facebook.com/Stockade-locksmiths-276492435716704/ |
|||||||||
dave_matkin Inner circle 4522 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-03-22 20:00, Ian McColl wrote: :applause: I'm not the only one that spotted that then? I love it when the exact same grammatical errors crop up! Makes me my head off! It's like the person putting it in the mag / whatever knows that it's so lame that they can't be bothered to correct it / make it sound any good. Maybe we should see more [sic] though ...... Or does that just reflect the quality of the media re-posting the press release? The other thing I laughed at once was a writer who said "this person is doing this thing so lets talk about movies!" . Any way time to throw the kids out in the snow in their PJs ...... If anyone asks their playing TLTWATW! |
|||||||||
Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Okay...since we seem to want to get HARD NOSED about this:
A REAL escape artist can get out of ANYTHING, ANYTIME, under ANY CONDITIONS. Anything less, and you're just a trickster. A LEGIT Jail Escape requires the following: 1. You must be UNDER ARREST and awaiting a COURT DATE, or you will be treated differently than a regular prisoner. 2. You must go in COLD; no tools or preliminary knowledge of the jail. 3. You must work out an escape method/route on the fly, before you are sentenced (if found guilty), and possibly sent to a tougher institution, and execute your plan successfully. 4. Failing that, you must make good on repeating the process at the tougher facility. 5. If recaptured, you must repeat the above. Now then--are we going to be entertainers, or convicts on the run? Make up your mind.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
|||||||||
magicofCurtis Inner circle Los Angeles 2545 Posts |
Steve,
Copperfield is the great example about what people think and talk about after. He floated over the grand cannon, made the statue of liberty disappear and walk through the great wall of China.... Those are all basic magic effects on a grand scale.... But, the talk and the legend after is HUGE. Same as Houdini. Lots of his stuff was basic type of escapes on grand scale, but it got people talking. ITs funny how magicians/escape artist has a different view than the layman and press.
Curtis Lovell II
http://www.CurtisLovell.com http://www.MagicofCurtis.com www.facebook.com/curtislovellii Los Angeles, California - U.S.A. |
|||||||||
magicofCurtis Inner circle Los Angeles 2545 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-03-23 04:59, dave_matkin wrote: Dave, don't forget all the other full stories you have read about me that are pages long. You keep bringing up one little thing and turning it into a joke, But people see pass your BS. I never claim to perfect, but on the right track. HMM... why doesn't your website link work? At the end of the day I sleep well and happy of my accomplishments. Have a lovely day!
Curtis Lovell II
http://www.CurtisLovell.com http://www.MagicofCurtis.com www.facebook.com/curtislovellii Los Angeles, California - U.S.A. |
|||||||||
magicofCurtis Inner circle Los Angeles 2545 Posts |
Ian and Dave,
Thank you for making almost every thread turn into a subject about me. I guess that is some level of fame, if I have hit a nerve and all you can do is think about me!
Curtis Lovell II
http://www.CurtisLovell.com http://www.MagicofCurtis.com www.facebook.com/curtislovellii Los Angeles, California - U.S.A. |
|||||||||
magicofCurtis Inner circle Los Angeles 2545 Posts |
BTW Jay,
I did enjoy your video!
Curtis Lovell II
http://www.CurtisLovell.com http://www.MagicofCurtis.com www.facebook.com/curtislovellii Los Angeles, California - U.S.A. |
|||||||||
magicbymccauley Special user 830 Posts |
Curtis, don't let them get to you. These guys get riled up a bout a lot of things which I'll never understand. They get in a fight with me about how I said Harley's lecture was great and now they're upset about punctuation. Next they will be upset at the color of your rope, or perhaps they'll be angry at your haircut.
I'm sure most of the people on here could start a fight in an empty room. LOL.
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven |
|||||||||
magicofCurtis Inner circle Los Angeles 2545 Posts |
Well, I upset with my haircut too! ahahah
Curtis Lovell II
http://www.CurtisLovell.com http://www.MagicofCurtis.com www.facebook.com/curtislovellii Los Angeles, California - U.S.A. |
|||||||||
magicbymccauley Special user 830 Posts |
You know in some ways I want to just say "Nope, everything I do is a real challenge and all my props are simple and examined". I don't even want to acknowledge that there are methods other than skill to escape things. So in some ways we should maintain the illusion that EVERYTHING is an above the board challenge.
Like in the "Prestige", there's the Pledge, the Turn, and the Prestige. In being an EA we want to emphasize the Pledge, and perhaps some of the Pledge is actually real. But we don't want anyone to know that a Turn is even possible in an Escape. So an EA should be Pledge and Prestige, because that's what it would be if there were no trickery. The fact that EA's CAN do certain things without ANY trickery is what makes Escapes different from other magic tricks. There is no way to actually make a ball disappear. There is a way to open a lock without a key, to escape rope to pick a lock and so forth that aren't "tricks". Our goal is to make the audience think that we're doing this all the time, that each escape is based on skill not on trickery. So yes. Everything I do is a challenge and 100% above board. There is no trickery. I Pledge this to you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4gHCmTQDVI
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven |
|||||||||
magicbymccauley Special user 830 Posts |
And see Ian! There's no Karate metaphor in the above post.
(Ian was getting riled up by the fact that I use the same metaphor too often. See Curtis? They get riled up about anything).
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven |
|||||||||
jay leslie V.I.P. Southern California 9498 Posts |
Steve
If I say the grand canyon is deep. Why do you want people to jump in, to prove it's deep? If an EA should accept a challenge, that does not mean they must die and come back to life. Accepting various challenges is no higher a standard then training for the olympics. I never said we should accept ALL challenges or impossible challenges. Being able to present a challenge escape separates the tricksters from the artists. For example, I was on AM Philadelphia promoting an appearance at the Atlantis Casino/Hotel. I said 'Bring your own locks and I'll escape from them" A man from Harley Davidson brought a brand new Kryptonite. He claimed that HD would contribute 1000 dollars to any HD owner that had their bike stolen, if they used that lock - and - that it was unbreakable. I told the disk jockey to play some music, ran offstage and came back in under a minute with the lock open. The house went wild... The man said "I don't want you in my town" I responded "There is no way you can keep me out"! So.. Did the lock have to be on a bike that belonged to a stranger? Did I have to open it while the alarm was going off? Was there a threat of arrest? No to the three conditions. I therefore have to disagree with your assertion (this one time) that a challenge needs to be impossible. All I'm saying is that a challenge needs to involve skill.... real skill. And again. I'm not saying that anyone should accept a challenge that's impossible or where you will get hurt............ Although... you may split your pants sometimes ! (Ha... A Michael reference).
Jay Leslie
www.TheHouseOfEnchantment.com |
|||||||||
Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-03-23 14:27, jay leslie wrote: I was engaging in reductio ad absurdem. You took Ian's description of a legitimate jail escape (already a subjective definition) and pushed it one step further (if the jail is closed and has become a museum, an escape from a cell there doesn't count). I pushed it completely off the cliff, hoping to give you some perspective. Quote:
If an EA should accept a challenge, that does not mean they must die and come back to life. Accepting various challenges is no higher a standard then training for the olympics. I never said we should accept ALL challenges or impossible challenges... So...tricksters aren't artists, and escape artists don't use tricks. Alllll-righty-then!!! Lee Jacobs just did ONE escape: the 75' rope CHALLENGE tie. Does that count, or is it like being canonized as a saint, where you need a certain number of miracles to make the grade? How many challenges are required for 'canonization?' Quote:
All I'm saying is that a challenge needs to involve skill.... real skill. Defined as--what? Just as importantly, WHY? Deception is just as much a skill as lockpicking. If a pickpocket 'lifts' the key to escape a handcuff, and re-plants it in the challenger's pocket, does that count? If a performer can perform 'temporary sabotage' on a restraint to keep it from securing properly, and not get caught, does that count? If a performer uses misdirection to switch a challenger's lock for a duplicate, for which he therefore has a key, switching it back after the escape, does that count? If someone doesn't meet your arbitrary standard, does he have to quit escapology and spend the rest of his days doing Hippity-Hop Rabbits? As Norm Bigelow pointed out long ago, just because someone decides to draw a line in the sand and say, "This is where escapology begins and ends," doesn't mean that everyone else has to TOE that LINE. But, hey, if you want to create a little box painted, "He-Man Escapologists Club - No Tricks Allowed," go to it. I'll keep thinking outside the box, thank you.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
|||||||||
Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Oh, and if you want to promote 'legitimate escapology' and not 'sully the art,' don't sell trick restraints/locks and/or books/videos describing them. Sell only REAL restraints/locks, pick sets, locksmithing books and military/CIA POW escape manuals.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
|||||||||
jay leslie V.I.P. Southern California 9498 Posts |
I offer a definition and you react.
Not respond....... react. reacting is emotional. Would you consider Tony Curtis an escape artist? He escaped from restraints, didn't he? I merely want to point-out that EAs as well as magicians, doctors or car mechanics cannot claim to be legitimate or proficient just because they have props, tools and equipment. But there is a difference between someone presenting escapes and an artist in the same way there is a difference between people that perform standard box tricks at birthday parties and people who have developed original illusions with original music and the public knows it. There are degrees of experience and ability. In every other profession, people are recognized for being mundane or being specialists and experts. There are general practitioners and specialists in the medical field. There are people that read poetry at libraries and people who have won the Pulitzer. There are minor-leaguers and major-leaguers. There are people who cut keys at the big box stores and then there are locksmiths that offer full service. What I find strange is that at no time did I say that people who were practitioners at a lower skill level, are bad people. At no time have I written that one person is better then another. What iI have written is, that there is a distinction between skill levels. I have obviously hit a nerve so I apologize. I did not know anyone felt threatened by a definition of the word "challenge". That's the operative word- challenge. So please forgive me for being specific about a word. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/challenge I am forever done with this thread forever. Did I say forever? I meant forever, and ever and will never open this thread again. Should anyone wish to post their "challenge escape" I would love to watch it. (Note to Michael: See what you started... with all your fancy, pants splitting escapes?)
Jay Leslie
www.TheHouseOfEnchantment.com |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » All tied up! » » Jail escape (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.08 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |