A few months old, but interesting though:

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/......cks.html

I say "interesting" because in IT, for instance, seldom (if ever) they hire people coming from the "true" world of hacking.

Its a joke, the gaming learns every game in a week crash course. They hire management and dealers alike with no experience because they wont pay anyone with real experience enough. Ohio... its insulting really. More on this later.

Whiskey

Arnold, I beg to differ regarding the hiring of ex-convicted hackers.

Considering that you're only talking about the blackhat hackers (i.e. excluding people like Jeremiah Grossman / RSnake, pdp etc), there have been quite a few examples - obviously Kevin Mitnick, Kevin Poulsen... but there's also people like Mark Abene, Adrian Lamo, Robert Morris, De Wit (although that's not really counted, I guess lol) and a whole community worth of people - http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/......ll.story (although there are pretty lot of holes in this particular version of the story that can be debated about)

Those are just what's in the news. There are many more not written about.

@lisheng

I meant the real guys. Boys coding viruses, malware, spying tools, monitoring tools, etc. Guys having worked for "bad" people/purposes (administration, companies or banks attacks). Not white hats or 22 years old people writing books about security and having no **** idea about how to code a driver or a stealth assembly code . Rarely you'll see people like that given a chance to improve IT systems/security. Hence so many bugs, breaches, etc. Who knows better about robbery than a robber?

I know some people you mention (I read some articles about them in the past) and none of them belongs to the category I'm talking about, even if some are great professional and very proficient, no doubt about that. Many are very knowledgeable about networks, telephone, etc. (Poulsen, Mitnick, ...) but I would bet they can't write a polymorphic virus or deactivate an anti-virus remotely.

Do you think that many companies would hire Albert Gonzalez?

Ha Mitnick, the good old times . I translate one of his book once.

Kevin is a friend. I'm sure there's lots of things he can't do with a computer or network. But I don't know if there's anyone that understands his areas of expertise like he does. Isn't that all that matters?

I couldn't play a bridge hand if my life depended on it - but I like to think I know my way around a deck of cards in other areas.

Jason

PS: Remind me to tell you about the time I drank from Johnny Carson's coffee mug after picking the lock on a display case using one of Kevin Mitnick's business cards. True story.

With all respect and no offence intended, I don't agree with the way "real" is being used on the forum most of the time - it's as if demeaning the activities or impact of seemingly less "bad-ass" stuff. (Out of topic, but I often see references to "real gambling cheat" - who is to say what's "real" or not if money is actually being cheated when the person was gambling? And who's to say that "small private games" is less "real" than high stakes tournaments or casino games?)

Before I say anything further, let me say that I don't claim to be an expert. However, I've worked with and against people who code viruses, sell consolidated CC information, engage in HYIP scams, launch DDoS attacks, etc. over the years. I remember trying to track down and persecute 2 kids from Macedonia for operating the R0xnet botnet and launching DDoS'es. Most of them WERE 22 year old people copying code, making slight modifications, or script kiddies in general. These are the people who weren't given a chance to work. But that's just in my experience. We can exchange stories in private.

Besides, you don't need to be able to write a polymorphic virus to be a "hacker" these days - Most of the big hacks of the recent years have been focused on web services and applications. Just being proficient with testing using the OWASP Top 10 categories and a huge number of the private websites will fall. I still see sites susceptible to directory traversal attacks these days. I know quite a few "non-famous" people who have taken out racks of ThePlanet's servers, rooted a good number of HostGator shared servers, caused thousands of dollars in damages in various ways, and are employed in the security field now. In my humble opinion, they are not less "real" than guys who can deactivate an anti-virus remotely.

I think the only people who care to arbitrarily classify hackers as "real" or not based on what exact technical skills they may or may not have as opposed to what they do with their skills are those who would like to think themselves as part of their definition of "real" hackers.

Having and using knowledge most people don't have doesn't make someone any more "real", it just makes them more skilled. Being "real" is about what you do, not what you know. Someone may turn up their nose at a hacker getting login information through social engineering, preferring instead a more technical approach such as a man in the middle attack using a passive listening device followed by cracking obtained passwords with rainbow tables, but that doesn't make them into a "better" hacker or a more "real" one. The result is the same.

You can argue that the more skilled hackers don't get hired as often (I won't argue against that since I don't have enough data to back up either side and no time or interest in collecting it), but arguing that companies don't hire the "true hackers" just stinks of the "no true scotsman" fallacy. It's an arbitrary distinction.

@lisheng,

Well, for sure, we could debate for hours about what is "real" hacking. Obviously, everyone has his own definition and I certainly don't claim the way I see things IS the definition everyone should use. Let's put it that way: to me, people using other people code, software, tools are not "real" hackers. The one who has the idea, the one who codes it, the one who found the breach, the one who creates, he IS the real hacker.

It does not mean at all that people "just" using the tools created by people I call hackers are not good, proficient or can't be brilliant professionals! Certainly not. One can be creative using someone else tools. Honestly, it's like sleight of hand in card manipulation. Very often, the one who invented a move is surpassed by future variants or fastest and smoothest performers. About IT, fortunately, it seems that people fighting hackers are slightly better than them .

Again, it's just the way I see things. I personally know a few people working for IT security for VERY big and important companies/administrations and I've always been surprised about their very poor knowledge of coding, low level system internals, etc. But of course, all is not about technique. You can secure a network knowing nothing about a microprocessor instruction set, fortunately! You can also attack a bunch of server with success merely using freely available software while been absolutely unable to analyze by yourself the structure of a packet sent over the network. You're also absolutely right when mentioning that, nowadays, "hacking" is more about the Internet world.

It's just my way of thinking. I had a long thought last night and, deep into my memory, I could find at least 2 guys (who I would call hackers) that have been successfully hired by security/anti-virus companies. So, it happens. I just think it's not that common, that it doesn't occur that often. At the other side, don't tell me you have never met "experts" who were absolutely unskilled and incompetent . Nothing's perfect in this world.

@Jason

I meant nothing bad about Kevin Mitnick, lol. Kevin is one of my favorite people of all times.

@stef

Man, you're one of the three people here I will no longer answer any post. As I wrote in a previous post, I'm tired to meaningless debates and I just came back for having nice exchanges with people. I'm sincerely sorry, because I think you're someone interesting, but the history of our fights here is too long. Peace.

That been said, I think we could have an interesting debate about this: is it really important for the gambling industry to hire people from the bad side? After all, they have cameras, conferences, police reports, books, history, etc. I mean, they are not completely "blind" and should rarely been taken by surprise. They use a lot of technology (which is very often kept secret) and their environment is seriously under control.

What is your advice?

This "what is a real hacker" conversation could just as easily be turned into the recent "what is a real cheater" conversation.

Is the "real cheater" the guy who drills the dice, or the guy who throws them?
Is the "real cheater" the guy who trims the cards, or the guy who plays them?
If you don't happen to know any "real cheaters" personally, can anything you say be taken seriously?
Would anybody who actually knew any "real cheaters" actually post something relevant about them on the Magic Café?
Would any "real cheaters" post anything on the Magic Café?

Often, the best response to a post is "I certainly respect your point of view, and although it doesn't change my own thinking on the matter, I enjoyed our exchange of ideas".

I think that, the real cheater, is the one who dishonestly acts purposely, in such a way that he's cheating someone else. I don't call the guy who build the tools he may use a cheat, that guy is an (involuntary) accomplice, at most (unless he's part of the plot, of course!). Knowing someone bad doesn't turn you necessarily into someone bad! But knowing someone bad might bring you knowledge about bad stuff, for sure.

I fully disagree about that old saying: "real cheats don't post on forums". We live in 2013, everyone is using the Net, we live a connected age. Why would a real cheat be unable to use a computer or spend some time on forums? I would fully agree though, that he would certainly not brag off about his "exploits"... I've met "real" cheats, stealing for a living. Some were like you and me, using Facebook, collecting books, exchanging ideas, etc. Some were complete idiots and certainly not able to have any decent conversation. Some were fantastic technicians, some were absolutely crap at card handling lol.

I have no problem to change "my own thinking", once in a while. I learn every day and I'm absolutely happy about it .

Let it not be said that you're unwilling to continually use the same old tired, lame excuses when someone tries to be objective and keep things peaceful. Have it your way, Mr. Holier than thou.

And my name isn't stef or anything close to it.

I don't even know why I wrote @stef instead of @splice, lol, I was certainly thinking about other things while typing. My apologies. As one of my customers, I think I know who you are (even if some of them have used ghost buyers ) and there was no intention at all to break your anonymity. Again, my apologies.

I think learning new things is the sole reason I maintain an interest in this subject matter.

Although I've shaved, polished and drilled lot of dice, modified a lot of cards, and manufactured everything from Beanshooters to dice holdouts......I've not ever cheated anybody directly.......although I suppose I'm hardly to be considered innocent of all wrongdoing as it relates to cheating in general, as I've gone far out of my way to learn as much as possible about the subject.

My own grand lesson has been about the danger of stating absolutes. I find when the topic is cheating and hustling, I simply don't have enough accurate information to make definitive statements such that I could ever declare somebody else "wrong", or equally important......declare myself "right"

My lesson learned over the past decade is that hubris would seem to be the cheaters one true downfall.

Cheaters are the people who have actually applied cheating methods under fire, either presently or in the past. I would not classify those than manufacture or supply cheating equipment as “real” cheaters.

Depends on what is being discussed. Because of the massive exposure of recent years, there are a lot of students of the subject that can make academic statements in different areas. Some of those statements have relevance and some do not. In some cases it is akin to the blind leading the blind. The areas where most are very weak is understanding the real time use and application of various cheating methods. If someone has no direct experience in this regard they for the most part don’t really understand this aspect of hustling (although of course they think they do). Their opinions are not based upon experiential fact. There is no question in my mind that one has to have been there to truly understand this subject at its most meaningful level.


Only if they were total ******. Certainly not about professional current cheaters or current methods. Really can’t do something like that. Exception might be explaining what was used in the past by some old timer who is no longer with us or retired and/or using something that has been exposed and is no longer very practical or relevant.


I doubt that currently active professional cheaters would post on the Café, but it depends on what level they hustled at. Someone who considers himself a “expert” cheater because he read the Expert at the Card Table, deals an Erdnase bottom or does an Erdnase overhand stack is technically a cheater, but of a very low order and has little of relevance to say. Professionals would have little to gain and maybe a lot to lose by posting anything worthwhile on this forum.

The Café is not designed to discuss practical hustling methods and their application. It is a forum for magicians/hobbyists who are interested in gambling/hustling type material.

A person that hustled previously or a retired hustler might post, but would probably do so in a very light manner without getting deeply into real details that are important and currently relevant. Passé stuff, old plays and so forth are okay.

The forum which came closest to the “ideal” hustler site was the now dormant CardShark forum. Membership was very small but some very interesting and valid discussions were had therein. Members had to abide by a code of posting and a doped up degenerate Cretan who has never had anything meaningful to say, like the Yellow Punk, aka Yellow Kid, would not have lasted for more than one delirious post before being banned from the site.

Other than that, silverking had a good site (Stripper Decks or something like that) in which only more serious students/hobbyist/magician types posted, but it eventually died because of a lack of activity. Let's face, how serious can you get on a public forum, or an internet forum of any type.

Generally speaking, magician/hobbyists discuss this type material on internet sites and those type sites have a following. Professional hustlers discuss what they use among themselves. To them, who they are, what they use, how they apply it and the fact they are capable is actually kept secret. It is still done that way among the pros.

Magicians/hobbyists really get the wrong impression because their are many expose guys who will drop their pants, bar their ass and blab about whatever they know to every man, woman and child in hearing distance to show how truly sharp and knowledgeable they are. Of course, magicians love those type guys because that is how they learn this material. But the smart hustlers who hustle in casino and in big public and private games simply don't do that nor do they carry a miniature copy of Erdnase in their back pocket.

All good answers.

I've said it a few times before Cag, but beyond the magician/hobbiest category, I think there's a third category that approach the entire subject with a totally different perspective.

That would be the scholar, be they a student, or somebody who may have done enough research to perhaps teach a couple of things.

I do agree that none of us can know, because none of us can do.
I also believe that the scholar has a different reason for learning (than the magician), and also is painfully aware of their shortcomings when it comes to real work and those for whom this is their source of income.

You may equate the scholar with "the hobbiest", which is fine......but I personally believe that studying something is also fundamentally different than doing something for pleasure.

Regardless, there's so much depth to the subject matter that one (whatever you want to call him) can never stop learning.

Thanks for the insight Cag.

Okay, your argument is compelling and I acquiesce to a new category of gambling aficionado – “The Scholar” – if…you change the “Rabbit Coming from a Hat” to a picture of a Zen Master type with a long robe and flowing beard holding up a magnifying glass exemplifying critical examination.

Times have really changed. Years ago we primarily had the category of either hustler or thief...those that could get the money. Now we have “evolved” to categories like magicians, hobbyists, “experts,” demonstrators, “world’s foremost expert,” Erdnase Expert, dilettantes and now…Scholars.

Hey, it makes perfect sense to me so henceforth the category of “Scholar” will be included in my future writings on the subject and I apologize for previous omissions and oversights on my part. Thankfully I learn something new every day.

Oh well, time for a double Scotch on the rocks.

In the old days the casino owners were some best hustlers and conmen around. Hustlers don't measure who is best by skill but by how much money they have got from the game. The casino's owners make more money than two the two bit hustlers that try to cheat them. As long as they are around you had better used to being second best.

Ok, Jason, I'll bite. PLease tell me the story of the coffee mug and the lock. (btw, just getting into lock picking...a business card??)

Wow Kcg5, this post has gone in so many different directions that you asking about a coffee mug and lock really confused me. lol though that does sound like a great story.

~Whiskey