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Poof-Daddy Inner circle Considering Stopping At Exactly 5313 Posts |
I am going to say one more thing for people to think about before the mods lock this one down - and I hope it's soon as it has come down pretty much to finger pointing and blame throwing.
1) the death of Kevin has affected a lot of people from not only this board but the many others he frequented. And most of all his family and whatever real life in person friends he had. 2) it has caused many to relive a tragidy in their past as many have said, knowing someone in their life that committed suicide 3) it has caused many people to do some real sole searching, often wondering - could I have done something different that would have made a difference. The answer I believe is - NO, in the end he did what he was going to do, it was his choice. 4) I am amazed at the people berating anyone - including Octopus Sun, myself, the person who made the comment on his suicide note ( which absolutely NO ONE even knows that he saw or not the others who as you put " Piled on and threw Kevin under the bus after Octopus Sun lit up on him" . Simply because YOU are guilty of the same thing after the fact. There is a small group piling on with their finger pointing and innuendos that are taking no consideration for the feelings of any of us who are allegedly to blame. I don't know about the others state, but I will give you an example. I suffer with depression and extreme pain every moment of every day. The only relief I get is when I sleep basically under a drug induced coma. I contemplate suicide at times when the pain gets so bad I can't stand to live with it. I cry on my wife's shoulder because it now looks like a may need surgery that could paralyze me from the waist down. Go to my blog at http://www.saveshadowpest.weebly.com if you think I'm making it up my entries are all dated. But you feel you can freely pile on pointing fingers at me? I am the only person who posted the words " Tough Love " and you have absolutely no idea whatsoever how much help behind the scenes I tried to help Kevin. Fortunately there are a few people here who do know and also went out of their way behind the scenes and they have pm'd me to keep me focused. So take a minute and ask yourselves, all you self righteous people who stand before me in judgement. Are you considering my feelings? Octopus Suns? Any others? Or are you just as bad a person as you think we are, only difference - we march on and arent going anywhere. I am also amazed how many people are chiming in with such strong opinions that I have never seen post on any of his threads. Please don't jump on the misconstrued bandwagon when you don't know how much went on behind the scenes. Woulda coulda shoulda are just like hindsight - 20/20 we don't get a do over on this one. I think lessons were and are being learned by this tragic event and now I honestly think the community as a whole will suffer because its gonna be all kitty cats and rainbows for a while. People will not reply lest they be misunderstood. And that is yet another great loss. The truth hurts sometime and our motto is " MAGICIANS HELPING MAGICIANS" help is not always a pat on the back and if that is what it comes down to - I for one am outta here, I want the truth if I post a vid. I want to know if my post is wrong this is how we learn and advance. I will miss Kevin and I will always wonder why he did what he did but I am sure there was much more to it than us as a community or anyone in particular. The world was not against Kevin - Kevin was against Kevin. I was also surprised how deep Octopus Suns Knowledge of Kevin and his situation was. Perhaps he knew him better that any of us. Same with the other boards he was on. I'm sure they weren't always nice to him, he spoke of it to me once. He even posted about problems dating back to 8 years old. So, lets stop with the blaming. If you still want to blame, before you do. Ask yourself - What did I do good for him? Most people just ignored his posts, read them and didn't reply for whatever reason, at least I know I tried. And yes, Kevin did receive overwhelming and enormous support ( behind the scenes) so please don't try to dozer over what you don't even know about to fit your agenda. This is really all I have to say on the subject except that the mods have done their due diligence Thank you for your kind attention.
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure
Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased). |
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bowers Inner circle Oakboro N.C. 7024 Posts |
Amen to that brother...
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Octopus Sun Special user Wiggle Wiggle 586 Posts |
Kevin talked deeply, with me, we both had problems.
I was born in Japan, I think that was our click. I've always talked to him about his speech. I thought it was important to try and light a fire under him cause he got depressed easily dropped the ball. His speech was important to him and I felt that if he got his voice stronger with more joy, he would project more than his magic. It doesn't matter if one has an amplification system like Laurie berated me about, if your voice is weak it will be amplified as weak, and myself being a experienced MC and public speaker, I could get Kevin groomed for his show. If we all could sit and talk you would understand how I talk with a jibe in my voice and a humorous tone to things like I said to Kevin. Thing is we can't write the lilt tone emotions added to our voice in order for our brains to decipher the jist of what has been communicated...between parties. In person one can hear sense, understand each other, what I have learned the hard way is that communication on the net is not the same. Poof msg me a bit ago, I'll confess my life has taken a turn for the worse now. I caused a person to hang themselves because he asked me for constructive criticism on hi latest work. He didn't have his speech written, nothing going on with his dvd. he needed a little fire under his rear to get him going. Kevin was given the chance of a lifertime an open door thousands of young magi wish they could get. A door where his foot was in but not fully steped through. I told Kevin for good or bad Iwould be there, I would fly to AZ to see him and his magic. We had allot of good talk and allot of sad talk. He knew where iwas coming from when we talked, but it seems something was missing in my post, because when we talked together I talked to him the same way I write. I'm firm, I don't shade things, I'll tell youif you are good or bad, what you need to do to improve. I'm good at that analysis. so point your finger wag it more, IDC what you think. My life is f'd my wife leftme today due to this crap. there are at least a dozen other people who feel as bad as myself, and it's not our fault. Kevin did this to hurt people for some weird reason. Like poof said this suicide has opened old wounds. Last note how many of you have delt with suicides? not one of you. When I was 15 I went over to my best friends house to get him so we could go surfing, he said come in here check this out, and as I walked into the room, I saw him holding his Dad's 45 at the same moment I said how did you ge...(places gun to head pops like a balloon)t your dads gun. all in one sentance and moment blood abd brains on my face. so fu each and every one of you finger pointers I curse you all (fingerpointers and grommets)to think about Kevin each time you go to perform a magic trick, and that as you start the trick you realize just how much you suck as a magician and how good you could be if you didn't point fingers all the time, and while you stand on stage or in front of your specs you get a bad case of loud bellowing farts that cause your specs to laugh you off stage. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
I think we could all do to see more of the good in people.
Octopus Sun, one thing is absolutely true, you did NOT cause anyone to hang themselves. Please, do everything you can to know that.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Poof-Daddy Inner circle Considering Stopping At Exactly 5313 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-04-17 01:11, gdw wrote: Absolutely,
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure
Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased). |
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Michael Jay Regular user Toledo, Ohio 180 Posts |
I'm amazed at the finger pointing that's going on here. Having known 3 people personally who have committed suicide, let me give you a different scenario:
It wasn't the cold, hard facts that pushed him over the edge, it was the supportive posts that drove him to it. By feeding his fantasies you made him believe things that would never come to fruition. Once he jumped in with both feet and found out that those of you who were building him up were completely wrong, he couldn't take it anymore. He took the only road that he knew was certain. Since you don't know what went through his mind in those final moments, my scenario is just as valid as the scenarios that are being proposed prior to this. I've been a pallbearer more times than I can remember. I know it's around 20, probably more. Not two weeks ago I had to lay my cousin to rest. She was in poor health and made the conscious decision that enough was enough. She chose her death. Over my 48 years on this planet, I've found one thing to be true - you either watch your friends and family die or they watch you die. So it has been since the beginning, so it will always be. Quit pointing fingers. Let it lie and move on. What's done is done and there are no answers as to why. It just is. Mike. |
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J-Mac Inner circle Ridley Park, PA 5338 Posts |
I haven't commented much on all the negative posts here, but I will ask again, why must there be ANY talk of blame here? I don't believe that any Café posts were the cause of what happened. And while we are all free to post whatever we like, I don't believe that any posts are helpful other than expressions of sympathy for Kevin's family.
If anyone feels differently, please express it via the Café's PM facility. There is no benefit in posting recriminations here. Can't we just mourn peacefully and then move on? Please? Thank you. Jim |
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-04-17 00:04, Octopus Sun wrote: No dude, you didn't even come close to doing that. Not even slightly, not even a little bit. People sometimes get this sentiment wrong and take it as a chastisement (it's not), but this sad turn of events has nothing in the world to do with you. Suicide is never logical, so looking for logic, or trying to apply logical assumptions to the how/why/where/when of a person who commits such a desperate act is utterly pointless. Good thoughts about Kevin are all that are required of anybody at this point in time. Octopus Sun, what are some of your good memories of Kevin? |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-04-17 09:47, silverking wrote: Interesting points, Michael Jay. And yet another couple of salient posts here from J-Mac and silverking...I totally agree.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
I love getting phone calls and emails from folks I met on the Café.(including Kevin's)
Magic...like other forms of entertainment is much more than technique..it is connections....creating hope...dreams...and yes sometimes sharing tears. Earlier this month, I was asked to share a workshop with other clinicians at a state conference. I titled it, Working with ordinary people ..with extra-ordinary problems. One of the important things for me as a clinician is to know things that are out of my area and to use referals. We all have things we are good at...dreams...and yes reality does not care if we believe, trust...it just is. It was mentors in my life that helped me see truth and fantasy...and how to build foundations under some of my fantasy based castles in the sky. love and prayers... brother Harris
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-04-17 11:16, Harris wrote: "Working with ordinary people ..with extra-ordinary problems" The way you worded that reminded me of something. My sister went to school for working with people with disabilities (I forget the actual name of the program.) Any who, she informed about one of the changes to the phrase(s) which were used to refer to people with disabilities. Namely, "people with disabilities." Now, a lot of the constant changing of acceptable terms for different people, conditions, job titles even, etc, can drive me nuts. I'm all for calling people what they wish to be called, which is really much more up to the individual of course, however constant re-defining by organizations and such, overly political correcting every word, can be insane, and often completely misses the point. However, the point my sister made/pointed out with the phrase "people with disabilities," over, say "disabled people," is a valid one, and an important one in my opinion. Basically, the latter defines them by their disabilities, where as the former defines them as a person, and the "disabilities" is in addition to, if you will. I have Tourette's, and OCD. No, not the usual "cute" OCD personality, though both the issues are relatively mild, and under control for me. There are many others with far more prominent, and potentially embarrassing ticks and compulsions than I, but I have been, in many cases, thought to be a "coke head." Any who, I'm going on far too long here, point is, as with the title of your workshop, I am, you are, we are, not defined by disabilities, nor are we defined by our abilities. Though, the Tourette's and OCD can make for some fun performance character moments. One last thing, has anyone heard from Octopus Sun since the post above?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Not that there's reason to be concerned. OS seems to have been posting around once a day. Sorry, just over thinking, given the topic at hand.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Octopus Sun Special user Wiggle Wiggle 586 Posts |
All is good, lots of work to catch up on, Thanks G
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
No problem. Good to hear.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4665 Posts |
I have read these posts after Kevin tragically passed away. I felt bad that people here took blame and pointed blame. This was no one's fault. Kevin was getting the best help his parents culd give him, and still this happened. I thught it might help to post a PM that Kevin sent me on April 9, where he talks abut posting on forums. Here it is:
Hi Michael, I'm going to quote you here: "We all want our egos caressed, but we have to realize that not everyone is going to like what we do. So listen to criticism if that is what you want with an open mind, but never take it as a personal attack. I hope that I have made some sense here." ---- I hate using the word "ego" because I think of it as bragging. And, bragging was the last thing I was trying to do. I was thinking about this, and I realized that years ago I used to attack people on message boards constantly. I was very immature. I honestly don't think I'm that immature anymore. I think I've grown up, despite what is said here in what I say, is acting immature at times. The difference between then and now (I'm not justifying that I should've said what I said to him, I still feel bad) is before I that person was being geniunely mean and I was right (when people tell you to kill yourself on a numismatic (coin collecting) message board and how to do it, I was very depressed and it didn't help, and I took his attack way too seriously. Something I learned is I cannot let this effect my life.) Now I'm not the same. I honestly misunderstood him and wasn't trying to attack him, just justify how it made me feel (bad). I think some things on message boards are sometimes taken out of context. I feel very bad for what I said to him still. I can't forgive myself for that. I'm very hard on myself and my magic and life too. I'm very much a perfectionist. But I wanted to get back to what you said, that is extremely importart: " but we have to realize that not everyone is going to like what we do. " This is absolutely right. I am always trying to please everyone. I often forget (and I forgot this time) that some people aren't going to like me. I need to grow tougher skin. Someone else said something absoultly horrible to me in an attack on a very mean forum in a game I play (I recently started playing a game I was addicted to for years again. I'm having trouble quitting again, I haven't played it for 2.5 years. I'm doing very well in school though.) There are people that have said they're not a fan of ponta because of his style, or any other magician. When I was working on the Monster DVD and realized it was going to be released worldwide, I had tremendous guilt that I did a bad job. I was constantly worried what others were going to think (That I did a horrible job) and regretted every little (minor) mistake I did. When it was reviewed in genii it was never mentioned I did a bad job. If anything, it was the equipment used, not my fault. French Drop liked my job alot, and now I'm working on another DVD with them. I need to view that as a lesson. I'm not sure how to put together a DVD or lecture notes. I was just thinking about this, and I think I could make a lamented cover for the lecture notes, and draw the best I can. I think a DVD would be better though. I just have my phone camera though. We don't really have a video camera. Do you have any advice on this ? Or should I not do the lecture? What do you think? Thanks for always giving me advice when I need it. I appreciate it. Honestly I'm tired of people taking things out of context here. There's too much drama sometimes and I create most of it. I'm very upset at myself for this. It's my fault. I just don't feel I deserve to post anymore, I feel nothing is worthwhile in my magic. It's hard not to take his comment to heart. Yes, I have to, but it's hard. Both his comment and the other one on the message board is tearing me up alot. The other person actually attacked me as a person, in a mistake I made, on something I regret deeply in the past. This was on a video game forum. I need to somehow figure out how to not let these comments effect me. I have to remind myself constantly not everyone is going to like me, and that's ok, and let the comments brush off me. Thank you Michael. I was going to ask you also, if I'm able to put these lecture notes or DVD together, can I use one of your effects? Which one is a simple coin routine you recommend? Thank you. Your friend Kevin I think its time to let Kevin rest in peace. Take care Kevin, wherever your soul now wanders.
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
https://youtu.be/aFuAWCNEuOI?si=ZdDUNV8lUPWvtOcL $325 ppd USA (Shipping extra outside of USA). If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com |
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rannie Inner circle 4375 Posts |
Rest in Peace Friend!
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."
-Rannie Raymundo- aka The Boss aka The Manila Enforcer www.rannieraymundo.com www.tapm.proboards80.net |
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Poof-Daddy Inner circle Considering Stopping At Exactly 5313 Posts |
Thanks for that post Michael, it's good for people to see he was being hammered on several message boards and it wasn't the only place he hung out. I truly feel for his family, I have been there, and I hope he found some kind of peace.
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure
Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased). |
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Rindfleisch Special user New Jersey 502 Posts |
Here are conversations I have had with Kevin.
Rindfleisch Posted: Mon, Aug 27th, 2012 - 9:40 PM (EST) Hey Kevin, Just wanted to send you a note and see how you are doing? I have been praying for you and I hope you are doing better. Were you able to make it to church? Here is also the info I gave you over the phone: Open up the bible starting in the new testament, try reading The Gospel of John. If you don't have a bible you can download one for your phone. Youversion.com is very good. Also there is biblicaltraing.org go to all classes and look for bill mounces class. Its called "what do I do now" or something like that. Ok be well and stay in touch my friend, remember you have my number and we can always talk Strange Tasting Fish Sticks Posted: Tue, Aug 28th, 2012 - 1:01 AM (EST) Sorry joe. I'd rather be myself truthfully than believe something that isn't me. Im sorry, I know you care deeply. I would love to talk magic. I hope you remain the great friend you are, and an absolutly incredible magician, I can only dream of being as good as you. Your are an inspiration!Rindfleisch Rindfleisch Posted: Tue, Aug 28th, 2012 - 10:26 AM (EST) Sure no problem. Your an analytical guy I would encourage you to scientifically come to a conclusion about God. Gather the evidence about Jesus and the bible. Look into non christian historians that document things about jesus and the early apostles. Two off the top of my head are Flavious Josephus. And Philo. There are also early 2nd and 3rd centry church father writings many who gave up their life for their faith. My qustions is with all the apostles that were killed, would they have freely died for something that was fake? I suggest you gather all the imperical evidence and know beyond a shadow of a doubt you have done your due dilligence, if jesus is real your gambling your soul. With all the evidence I have read and seen I just don't have enough faith to believe there is NOT a God. As far as magic it is my passion so feel free to stay in touch and chat. If you get access to a computer we could also skype and I could show you some crazy unpublished stuff. Joe Strange Tasting Fish Sticks Posted: Tue, Aug 28th, 2012 - 2:31 PM (EST) Joe, I would love that. You are very talented. I want to be that good one day. I can video skype with my psvita anytime. Thanks bud. Your friend, Kevin
check me out on facebook #MAGICTOTD
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
I too have had many conversations, PMs, and posts with Fish, and I always filled them with encouragement and focus for him to understand better that it is done unto you as you believe. Our thoughts are so powerful and truly create our lives in this process of life. It is a great power given to us that if used well produces many wonderful things, and if not, can as easily produce to the contrary. A large part of that is how we learn things and develop ourselves as we grow, trial and error toward greater and greater success. Sometimes our powerful minds can get away from us a bit and cause some real issues that at times are very hard to get a hold of.
I dreamed about Fish last night, saw him as I seemingly sat near some swings watching children play. A little boy had kicked a ball my way and when I went to turn to retrieve it, as I turned back to give it to him, there was Fish. We just stared at each other at first as he sat down on the other end of the bench there and smiled. He said, "How are you, Mb?" And for the first time through all the many photos and clips I have seen of him, his eyes were not empty but full of purpose, and his smile was of confidence and knowing. I responded that I was good and said, "And you Fish, how are you, my friend?" He rubbed through his bushy head of hair and said he was fine, and continue to smile at me. After a moment, I reached into my pocket and pulled out a silver dollar, and he immediately said, "That ones from your grandpa." I smiled as Fish would know that. I tossed it to him and he looked at it, seemingly thought upon it for a while, and then merely closed his hand over it. When he opened his hand, the coin was gone. I smiled at him and he smiled back and said, "All is well now, Mb." I nodded to him and he gazed off happily at the children playing and never looked back at me. I bid him farewell and slowly walked away. Upon leaving the park, I happened to stick my hand in my pocket, and there was the coin Fish miraculously vanished. When I looked back, there was nothing behind me but I could still very faintly hear children playing off now in a vast background with no real definition to anything. Anyway, I remembered that of my friend, Fish when I woke up this morning. And I think I will choose to remember him simply this way from this point forward.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
Praising God, for all of your coins and seeds to be planted in good soil.
Let us love those that are with us, that are not yet able to love themselves. Sometimes people only remember the need to change our actions and words for a brief time. Our words...written or spoken, can seem to us like pebbles thrown into a stream. To others, they are perceived as large boulders. Be safe, well and creative. Harris still to old to know everything
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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