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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Finger/stage manipulation » » Sense to manipulation (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Edward Drake
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I'm developing a manipulation routine and fighting with all my lack of skill in this making a better me in that things.

But I'm curious about what do you do to make your routine have sense? and not only going on stage and start appearing things like a crazy person.

Edward
Michael Baker
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Not everyone will have the same opinion on how to do this. If you look at some of the well-known manipulation acts, you might see Neil Foster, for example. His classic Chavez style did not exactly have a logic to it, but it was unquestionably a very good act. What largely sold his act, much the same with the manipulation act of Fred Kaps, was undeniable skill. The acts of Lance Burton, or Channing Pollock could easily fall within this category. It would be hard to define a plot within these acts, but they were no less entertaining, based on what they did offer.

I think there is a place for this in a magic act, however it should at least have some sense of progression to it. There is a way by which such an act can be constructed so that each feat progresses logically from one to the next, if only in dramatic build. (See Magic & Showmanship for details on how to accomplish this).

Like an artist using oil paints, there are many ways to apply it to the canvas, but only some of those ways are pleasing to see.

On the other hand, you have manipulation acts like Cardini, or Tina Lenert's "Mop Man". Both of these acts have a plot, and the magic happens according to a natural progression of the storyline.

How do you envision your act? What are you wishing to convey to the audience?
~michael baker
The Magic Company
Edward Drake
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Thanks Michael, It is a lot information that I didn't have an a lot of stuff to see.

But tu be truth I would like to know, what do people from here do, even if it is their hobby as me, or if it is their business like Jeff McBride and others.

Again thanks for the information.

Edward
Bill Hegbli
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The 1st thing you should do is educate yourself in the different published routines, not video, but the written words. Your mind will interpert them differently then others. This will cause your imagination to take over and start thinking and creating paths for your material.

The next thing is to actually go through a few and learn the material as written. Once you learn several routines, you will see how the creator designed his material in a certain direction. As you partice and rehearse, your mind will say, I don't want to do it that way, I will use this other handling I read or seen.

One does not just go out on stage and start appearing objects. One creates a magical and mystical event in their mind the wish to present. It is not pulling and throwing, but materialzing before ones mind and eyes.

What do you mean you don't have a lot of stuff to see, then go see them. Take a walk over to YouTube and watch the greats of old and new. Michael Baker mentioned a few. Watch how they move, and connect effects together.

Arthur Buckley has a wonderful move for a manipulator, causeing 4 or 5 coins to appear directly after producing a fan of cards from the same haad. That is a move that took me 20 years to find, and it oh so simple. This move create a segway to the next phase of an act. Namely card to coin manipulation.

You must buy DVD and books to learn. No one will do it for you. I buy one DVD a month on manipulation magic. That is all I buy, because that is what I am interested in. Oh, and if you have no interest, don't even start until you do, your just wasteing your time and money.

How to make an act make sense, it is your job to do that. An example, if you produce a silk from the air, then stroke the silk and a candle appears from nowhere. You light the candle, so you could use the match to flower trick. Vanish the lite candle and stroke the silk and crumble it up, and a dove appears from the folds of the silk.

The above progression makes sense, not always the objects. You could act like the appearing silk, candle and dove are a total surprise to you. It is magic that is happening to you. Not magic you are causing, so the objects can be anything.

Well, there you have my opinion of manipulation magic and the production of items. Yours may differ.
Edward Drake
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I think I didn't explain well my question, I'm no asking about material to see (it is useful to read about material that I do not know anything about, believe me I'm thankful for that, only I need to put my hands on it) I'm asking for the feeling, the abstract process, how do you get inspired to get your routine, that feeling, I get something by talking by phone and I'm right now practicing with my mobile to do some things with it.

That kind of thinking is the thing I want to read about, as magicians, I believe that is the part of art about this, is the part that lack of technic or instruction, but is the part that make our art wonderful

And if you still can advise me what I can see or what I can read, it would be awesome, but the important part to me, today is to know about that abstract process that transform a cube of stone into a beautiful sculpture.


Edward
Bill Hegbli
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Edward, are you trying to be poetic, or is beautiful sculpture what you are looking for? If so I believe plain English would be better way to communicate. When you write your book, you can be poetic, thanks.

I believe I mentioned in your 1st post, which you should have continued, as this is the same question. There is nothing published on non-standard objects. Nothing.

If you search this section, there was a young guy who came up with some finger flinging with an ipod phone. He posted 2 different sessions.

I cannot find it now, but you can look if you desire to search, or maybe a member remembers the postings.

Found one, read and watch this:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=10
Anatole
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I'm uncertain about what is meant by the phrase "sense to manipulation" that Edward introduced in his original post/question. I'm guessing that he means "What is the reason/motivation behind why a magician would make cards and billiard balls appear, disappear, change color, change size etc." (If I'm misinterpreting the point of the question, Edward, please let me know and clarify.)

As some writers/theorists have pointed out, there is an inherent logic behind wanting to have the power to make coins appear at the fingertips in, for example, a Miser's Dream routine or dollar bills as in Fred Kaps's act. Everyone would like to be able to pull coins and dollar bills out of the air. You can use the money to buy stuff. But why would anyone want to be able to pull cards and billiard balls out of the air? What benefit can be derived from linking and unlinking metal rings? Why produce doves from silk handkerchiefs only to put them in a cage as they appear and then make them vanish?

I answer that question by borrowing and modifying slightly the concept from Emerson's "Rhodora"--Magic (or wonder) can be its own excuse for being.

----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez
----- Sonny Narvaez
Edward Drake
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Anatole, almost you get my point, but is something else.

Bill, thanks again, but I still thinking I'm not explaining my self enough.


I'm going to try to explain with this:

If I would be able to ask Cardini what was the "why" he made their routines, I would for sure, but since he is dead, and in any book I can't find that, that feeling that made people do what they do, I'm asking you, another magicians, why make what you do in manipulation, and what is the sense about it, to you.

In this post I'm not caring about the technique, the was to do it, the objects we can use, even less the books about it or videos about it, I'm caring about what you feel when you do it, and to full fill what desire and feeling you do it.

That is, I hope I was able to explain it now, I need to apologize, English is not my natural language is spanish, then some times, Is hard to transmit (at least to me) the artistic thing I want to share or to make when I'm not in my language.

I know my stage name sound british, but it came in one of that parties where there are more bottles than persons, dedicated to Baco (or Dionisio, god of wine)

Edward
Michael Baker
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Edward, should you wish your magic to make sense, then let it tell a story. The story can be as simple or involved as you care to make it.

Watch this routine... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsY7fqfKwAk

The story is simple: Man vs Ball

Although magic itself exemplifies the illogical, there is a logic to the proceedings in this act. Not only is the magic virtually impeccible, it makes sense.
~michael baker
The Magic Company
Bill Hegbli
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Edward, I would imagine the answer you are looking for is simpler then you might imagine. For a magician like Cardini, his chosen act of magic tricks were guided more by him traveling the world to foreign lands with languages he did not speak, and the convenience of traveling with props then anything else. Cardini did do other type of magic in his career. I am sure he wanted to do other trick, but because of the difficulty to carry them, he could not.

Today, it is useless to create an act with fire or knives. Fire is not allowed in many places today. Knives you cannot get on an airplane and travel the world. So if one wants to perform they must find something they can do everywhere and travel the world with.

For me it is because I like manipulation magic over any other type of prop magic trick. It feel like I am doing the magic, not the box or tube I bought. Thus anyone that buys the same box or tube, can do what I was doing. This is what drives magic and learning as well, when you see a performer, and he does a miracle, you wish you could do, you buy his DVD if it is available.

There is two kinds of life, one that excites you, and one that all you need is the basics to get through each day. The latter you only need food, water, and shelter. Nothing more. If that is you, then good. Every person is different, in what they want out of life.

Then there is the person with an inner drive to be able to do some things other cannot, or to make other people feel pleasure because you can offer a moment that they forget their problems and join you in an adventure of mystery and wonder in the form of witnessing magic.

I just purchased King Coffee Manipulation DVD from Hong Kong. I like the way some of his hand and arm gestures are used during his tricks. I know all the tricks he does, but they are a little more exciting the way he does them.

That I find exciting.

Then there is the simple fact, that there is something about playing cards that draws my interest. What you can do with silks, CDs, etc. also create wonder that excites one self.

As I said if you have no interest or excitement with anything, then do not bother, move on to something that does interest you.

It is all an inner drive for every person to achieve something in life.

Now lets have your thoughts on your question.
Edward Drake
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Bill I'm interested in this, a lot.

Thanks for your message, you believe it or not, answer me what I'm asking.

I'm not as professional magician as I would like to, but the way I earn my living is being an advisor, I'm kinda good in that, but to be as good as I'm, I needed to understand what does people was feeling and my mentor teach me that, here in my country I do not know any manipulator (at least descent) to be able to share with him the feel he have, that is why I'm asking you magician that like manipulation (I hope as much as I do) what drives you to do manipulation (you answer me) what feels when you manipulate (The first time I back palm a card in front of a person, then show the rear of my hand empty and again show my palm empty to produce it again, with a person about less than a half meter from me, and see her face was awesome, more awesome than do an ambitious card, more than make a color change in the hand of the spectator, that is part I like manipulation, the other part is tat as you say no every body can do it).

That is what I'm asking you, what to you give you sense to manipulation, no, routines of the best, no books from the best, to you, people who are here, and if your are one of the best is good but if you are a beginner like me is good to, is the same at this question, because what I'm asking is not technique is something that only each of you (me included) know and only us know by each case.
jay leslie
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You should invest in some good old acting classes and concentrate on learning "motivation" and "inner script"
All will be revealed, as you learn to understand those aspects.
Jeffrey Korst
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If I understand your question, I can tell you that books have been written on the subject so it's going to be tough to get much in an answer on a forum.

Out of print, but if you can track it down, "Get your act together-Producing an effective magic act to music" by James Alburger is very good.

One part that (I think) closely speaks to your question suggests listening to music--a LOT of music. Think about what mood the music creates, note the beginnings and endings. When you find a few that you think might create the mood you want for your act, listen to it over and over and think about the builds and climaxes in the music and how they might work together with the magic you have in mind.

Magic wise, you need to have a large vocabulary of effects and moves. You need to be fluent so you can see that after you do one effect, you are left with your hands and props in position for another one. Or in position to steal a load, or ditch something or . . .
Why, yes. I do need new pictures. Why do you ask?

Jeffrey Korst
San Francisco Bay Area Magician
funsway
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Taking a different slant -- I am going to suggest that today's audience doesn't want your magic to "make sense." Decades ago folks "went out" for entertainment to get a bigger than life experience in comparison with home entertainment like reading, hobbies, gardening, parlor and table games, etc. Recently people seem to have lost the ability to "entertain themselves" and go out of the home "to be entertained." Big difference! They may delight in your juggling even more than any profound magic effect, have little experience with "good magic" and are conditioned to be bored unless there are loud noises and flashing lights.

In a restaurant setting, why are "sponge bunnies" at the top of the list for popular effects -- certainly not because of the powerful magic. If you wish to have an impact learn ballon tying. Look at Pop Haydn's success with variety shows -- something for everyone and only part is magic. Each routine is congruent unto itself but there need be no overall "sense" to what is going on.

Personally, I do not like manipulation and flair in conjunction with my magic performance -- which is why I do not perform much. I have little desire "to entertain" anyone. If you chose to be an entertainer, then art must play second fiddle to knowing your audience and joining them in a fantasy play to escape their mundane sorrows. If you are called to art and poetry then make you show be an expression of yourself by nay means, become good enough to sell tickets and attract only those spectators who will appreciate what you do.

Thus, manipulation will never "make sense" to magic, but make be essential to a "sense of entertainment." Life is about making choices. Happiness comes from finding joy in what you have. You are looking for contentment. Your question is sound -- then answer must come from within.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Bill Hegbli
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Edward Drake, if I understand you correctly, you miss the most important thing, KNOWLEDGE. Without knowledge you will not create of do anything. The more knowledge you obtain, the more your understanding of become apparent. Thinking and opinion keep changing with more and more knowledge.

Just like a child learns to walk, he will not ever walk without the learning process. Each phase can be broken down, as in learning how to keep his balance, why he cannot walk without standing. So how can he stand, he must learn to keep his balance. He gained knowledge from seeing others walk. If he never seen anyone walk, most likely his learning process would be stalled until he sees someone accomplish the movements. Every child would learn it faster if he could understand language, but he cannot, so learning to walk takes a lot longer to succeed.

You can not create anything without knowledge, and knowledge must be obtained by ones self.
Edward Drake
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Bill, I know that, but knowledge is not the more important thing, the most important thing is imagination, and to trigger the imagination, you need emotion, feelings and a little of knowledge. I'm not asking for knowledge in the matter of technique because today for me that is not important, I'm asking for knowledge of your feelings and emotions because today, at this day, that is important, feelings and emotions can inspire people to become better than other people, but technicality only make your moves better but not your way to do the moves. When I was practicing kendo, my sensei asked me a lot about why I didn't use some technique that their senseis showed me and taught me, and after saw me practicing that moves and saw that my technique was flawless, he share with me histories about combat, not about technique, not about knowledge, only about the feeling of combat, that inspired me a lot and let me loose my self and use the techniques I knew that I haven't used.

Knowledge is easy to obtain, Technique takes time to obtain, but feeling is the most difficult thing to obtain and in my experience when your sempai's (sempai in japanese martial arts are the people who are beyond you on that martial art, by rank or by time, but their aren't your senses) share that emotions with you is when you are able to reach that inspiration.

That is why today I do not care about crude knowlege about technique or about person who I can't talk with they, I'm more insterest in the feelings of people that I can say hello even through internet but I can said it and have a feedback.

Have a magical day

Edward
mtpascoe
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Knowledge may be easy to obtain, but few go and seek it. On American Idol, they complain about the singers that sing techniquely, but do not sing from the “heart”. I don’t agree. You need technique. If you don’t sing or do anything in entertainment with technique, then you shouldn’t be asking to be a professional. And once you perfect the technique, then it’s easy to sing from the heart.
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Edward: What country are you in? Jay Leslie made a great comment...
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Bill Hegbli
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Edward Drake, I have to somewhat disagree with you. Without knowledge and the meaning of right and wrong, there will be no feelings.

If a farmer raises animals for food for himself and others, then why does he have pets, that he does not consider food.

Now we would be getting into cross education, that involves other learning and emotional possibilities, so it would be hard to only deal with one feature at a time. I believe this discussion is beyond this text forum. Even the television discussion groups have a hard time staying on subject in this arena and ones like it.
Sealegs
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Ask yourself what it is about you that you want to communicate with the audience. What do you want to tell them about yourself? What sense of your persona or personality do you want them to have of you?

Maybe you do this by asking yourself what you are passionate about and find a way of verbalising that. Then you can start to look as to how to go about letting the audience find out about these qualities you wish to project and maybe that will give you a style, a look, an attitude, a feeling, of how the act might come across to your audience. It might then possibly even give you a direction for what you do in your act.

At first thought this seemed like a strange way to approach putting an act together... but the more I think about it the more it makes sense. The message first; This is who I am... and the means of communicating that second.

Of course it may just be an overly artsy way of going about things but shouldn't art be what we are striving for rather than doing a collection of clever manips?

I'm sure many, if not most, performers start with the effects, manips, and things they do... and develop an act around their persona using and adapting from their repertoire and skill set but there's nothing to say a purely cerebral starting point can't be a good place to begin too.
Neal Austin

"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw
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