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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
I have been watching this and have to say I agree with Danny and others. Tom also offers some valid points that have led me to ask the questions that I've been thinking to myself all along.
Following your posts Kameron, you seem to be very interested in doing this full-time or at least as part of your living providing for you and your family. You also have regularly come on here stating and seeking advice to get more bookings, better paying bookings and the "obstacles" you feel you have in being located in a smaller market in Montana. I've seen many people offer some great advice, some that I also don't feel you've understood or accepted, some you may have. I do agree you do seem to get defensive when someone offers information you don't like such as the post a year or two ago about your look or image. There have also been others. This leads me to my actual question. If you are trying to do this for a living, and with all of the obstacles and elements you feel are working against you, why are you choosing to perform such a small niche specialty show? A show featuring danger, glass walking, fire or whatever will lead you nowhere as it is targeted at only a very tiny limited market - a niche market. While you probably don't want to hear it, if you are trying to make a living at this you should be putting all of your efforts into focusing on and creating a commercially, mass-appealing show that offers you the most booking opportunities in the most available performance markets. I'm NOT saying you have to do the same common show with sponge balls and bunnies that so many others seem to be doing, as it is very possible to still have a commercially successful, mass-appeal (kids and families of all ages) act while still being unique and preserving some sort of image you are interested in maintaining. One of the absolute worst mistakes a performer can make is to think that the audience wants what they (the performer) prefers or likes. The majority of the time this simply isn't the truth. Especially when the performer prefers such a specialty genre, something non-commercial, off the normal path, or some kind of edgy or alternative performance. There are places and markets for these types of things but not for you where you are currently at. Even so, they still, even if you are a national act, still have limited appeal and opportunities. I've said this before and it bears repeating, not just for you but for all others at your level or in your position. You have to make the initial decisions for your performing business which will dictate how you proceed. If you make choices that are wrong or inconsistent with what is necessary or dictated by your market, abilities and environment, you will always be attempting to put a sqaure peg in a round hole. Sometimes it seems apparent that you may be creating your own limitations rather than opportunities. Please understand that it's hard for older or more experience members (who are here trying to help and save or prevent you from having problems and setbacks) to sit here and watch you make (potentially costly) mistakes, poor perspectives, and set themselves up for potential problems and dangers. It doesn't matter what the web site, logo or anything else looks like of those offering you assistance looks like, sound legitimate advice is sound legitimate advice. |
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Kameron Messmer Special user Billings, MT 742 Posts |
I guess I am just confused. The school found me, and after I told them what I do, agreed it sounded like what they want, and hired me knowing this. Now I am supposed to go in and do something else? Something I don't do/offer?
I understand what people tell me, it just doesn't always apply, and no one gets that. I have accepted peoples advice here, but sometimes it takes time. Many things they tell me were things I couldn't yet do or afford. As I could afford them I did. As I had the time, I did. This is my second year doing it full time pretty much. I have gone from a few shows a month to booking almost every day. I think some people giving advice here think there is only one road. There are many paths, and I'm trying to find my own. It may take getting lots of opinions and failing and trying, but I will get there. Just yesterday I booked 9 weeks of shows from one client, My August is filled with 32+ shows in April. I would not have dreamed that possible last year. I am traveling to other cites and states to do shows, and I would not have believed that either. Honestly, I am doing more kids and family shows than anything. I have some adult/dangerous tricks in my repertoire and I enjoy trying it every once in a while, but you are right, it is niche. My plan currently is to go full speed at children and family shows while keeping the sideshow and adult stuff on the side. I want to do kids stuff because it is fun and steady, I want to keep up on the adult stuff because that is my future. This high school gig is not normal, but it is part of my dreams. I do thank you all for the advice. I am sorry I don't al;ways take it well. I have a feeling a lot of it is the internet and limitations of text. To you, I may be a young weird punk who doesn't know what he's talking about. Just like I could look at many here and think they are just old guys, out of touch or corny, I know older magicians. I also know young stupid magicians. They both can drive me nuts. It is impossible to judge perfectly online. All I can say is the clients I talk to and perform for love me, and give me compliments on the site, or the show, or my image, or me. Then I come here and get flack. I am sure we have all misjudged each other. I will keep trying to get along with others...Can't we all just, get along??lol |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
Kameron - I think you initial question would require someone with a legal background to come in and share case law and wisdom to provide real guidance. The opinions shared here range from being totally risk adverse to not worrying about it and obviously both cannot be accurate. Likely, neither one is founded in fact, but rather perceptions. It would be interesting if someone with legal expertise in this matter was able to weigh in. I do think the risk adverse crowd would be the way to go until you received legal advice that put new light on the decision.
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
Kameron,
The advice you have been given is sound, and is given with the best of intensions. Us ‘out-of-touch, corny old guys’ are not so out of touch (although I must admit, I am old and a bit corny ). Many of us ‘old guys’ used to think that a Torch to Cane and the Fickle Fire trick were the most awesome tricks in the world and could not entertain an audience without them! The scorched carpet in my den from a fickle fire rehearsal accident still reminds of my foolishness. We simply don’t want you to feel the same pain we’ve had to endure by learning the hard way. Having said that, I agree with you in that you have to find your own path and a way to be unique. If danger tricks are your passion, then go for it! Back in the 70’s a young magician asked Mark Wilson, the leading illusionist and magic elder at the time, for some advice. This young aspiring magician wanted to know what Mark Wilson thought about selling a very large illusion show, moving it from city to city, across the country, in 18-wheeler semi-trucks. Mr. Wilson advised him it was terrible idea and that he would go broke. David Copperfield ignored the ‘old guy’s’ advice and followed his passion!
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
To be clear I don't particularly care of you like what I say or how it is said .
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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JoshLondonMagic Special user 675 Posts |
Mindpro's advice about is about as good as it gets. For those who know who I used to be (ask Danny) will be shocked to find that I am not only thriving with kid/family shows here in San Diego, but me fees are higher than any other kids entertainer here in San Diego AND my calendar is booked solid for the next 6 weeks and for the past year I've been booked solid with an average of 6-8 shows per weekend.
There are certain things that I had to put my ego aside and embrace. One of them was that I wanted to be known as a performing artist like David Copperfield and kid shows were beneath me. Then I got married, now we have a 6 week old baby girl and life couldn't be better! I go do 6-8 shows every weekend, unless I want a break and block off a weekend and spend the weekdays on my business. I had to put aside my ego and now I'm flourishing. In this case, even though judgment would probably not be entered against you, there is a possibility you could be sued. And it's those legal fees to defend yourself that will kill you. Lets face it, we live in a litigious society and people look for any excuse or reason to sue. Hell, I could sue you because you made me feel bad. You would h e to pay legal fees to defend yourself and be out a nice chunk of change. My point is, why subject yourself to that? Josh
Josh
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Kameron Messmer Special user Billings, MT 742 Posts |
I understand everyones points. I know why it is a bad idea, but this is my show. This is what I have built.
When I think "how am I going to entertain 'cool' High school students" I have to think of the coolest tricks I do. I have kids tricks, and I have not kids tricks. My show is saturday, and I don't have the material for an hour show that I think is cool. At this point, I am stuck. Seriously, what would you guys do at a high school show? |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Cool high school students? There your incorrect perception right there. Perhaps your focus is on the wrong things. It should be about YOU, not your effects. That's one of the biggest mistakes a magician can make. It should never be about your effects, but rather about you, your personality and showmanship. Plus "cool" is subjective. Seems like your trying to impress them rather than entertain them. It also seems like you have some fear of them as well. Just an observation.
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Kameron Messmer Special user Billings, MT 742 Posts |
I put "cool" in quotation marks. I don't think High Schoolers are cool. I have a younger brother and sister in High School. I know what they are like. I think THEY think they are cool. In high school it is all about how cool you are. It has probably gotten harder to entertain and impress high school students since I was one. There is the internet, and youtube, and smart phones and Criss Angel. I remember how jaded and cocky high schoolers were. I remember how nerdy I was (ahem, was) in high school. I got into magic around high school. That changed me. The more cool/dangerous the trick, the more people were interested in me.
I don't know what you all perform or how, but there is a perception that a lot of magic is corny and stupid. At least that's what it seems to me looking at pop culture. Then there are things making magic "cool" again. I am trying to stay ahead. That is an excellent point about making the show about you and not the effects. I tend to lean towards simple props or normal looking props for that reason. There are no flashy boxes in my shows, at least not this one. I use things that people know and don't pay attention to. If that is what you mean. And Hell yeah High school kids are scary. lol. Kids I can handle. Adults are nice, even if you suck. But sober teens and drunk adults are the toughest crowd I can think of... |
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Paddy Inner circle Milford OH 1571 Posts |
First, Josh, Mazel Tov on your new daughter!!!! May she bring nachus & simchas (Prie & Joy) to you and your wife.
Kameron, you have missed Mindpro's point altogether. He is saying that you are forgetting the BASIC concept of being a magician. It's not the trick, it's the PERFORMANCE. I have done some of the dumbest tricks for high school students and got GREAT response from them. Basic things like sponge balls and sponge rabbits, thumb tips, simple silk effects like a blooming silk. It is NOT what you do especially for high school kids. It's ALL in how you PERFORM what you do. Treat thes kids like you would a busking gig. Make friends, make them laugh, collect the money. |
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JoshLondonMagic Special user 675 Posts |
Thanks Paddy, she's just great!
I do t do anything spectacular in my shows, a misers dream routine, a great coloring book routine, gypsy thread and even sponge balls. Not once has a kid said, "sponge balls?! I've seen that before." In fact it's one of the strongest pieces in my show. Lets face it, at the end of the day we provide a service to our customers and we happen to do magic. It's your personality that translates to "cool."
Josh
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Kameron Messmer Special user Billings, MT 742 Posts |
I see what you are saying, I'm just saying my interpretation of "cool" is dangerous stuff. Thank you for telling me what you do in your shows.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Cool thing about being young is you grow out of it.
Now whether you learn anything is another story.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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