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Magician Shaun Special user Huntington BCH, CA 924 Posts |
Lassen Gaffs are expensive and rightly so. When you talk to Todd and place your order you can make any customization's that you need. The coins are hand made with love and precision. If you get a shell it will PERFECTLY fit the coins in the set. It is a PRECISION made tool for a magician.
I cannot comment Schoolcraft as I have not purchased anything from him. I would like for this thread not to devolve into the ****ing matches that I have seen in the past. Now, more on my logic of only buying the best tool for the job. Let's start with some examples. I have known some framers in the past and they all buy expensive Eastwing hammers. I know graphic artists and they work with either Maya or Adobe tools. I know software engineers that write C# and VB.NET code and they all use Microsoft Visual Studio. All of these examples have a couple of things in common. They are professionals in their field, meaning that they use their craft to make a living. They each also use very expensive tools to get the job done. Could they use cheaper tools? In every case yes. You can get a CHEAP hammer from Wal-Mart for a few dollars, you can get Gimp or Inkscape for graphic design, and as a programmer you don't even need an IDE that costs $10,000 because you can use Notepad. You see when you make your living with something you want the very best. You want the highest quality and reliability. If you just dabble, it doesn't matter as much. If I need to hang a picture at home, there is no reason for me to buy an Estwing hammer. I can go to Walmart and buy the $4 hammer or I can use a wrench to put the nail in the drywall, it doesn't matter. If I frame houses for a living and need to drive thousands of nails per day all that changes. Likewise if I want to play with photo editing then I can get Gimp for free no need to spend thousands of dollars on Adobe. It is also hard to justify. Does what I am saying make any sense? I am a part-time professional magician. I work about 15 hours per week actually getting paid for magic. Every time I buy a prop, I look for the very best I can afford. I realize that this prop has got to last as long as possible and it has to endure thousands of shows and spectators. A lot of my time is spent busking and I take offense to a comment earlier I read that stated, "If you are busking, clad Johnson's are good enough." I will trade with for a day with any parlor or walk around magician and at the end of the day compare how well I did his job vs how well he did mine. I bet you in most cases he can't do mine at all and I will do his just as well. But I digress, this is not a thread about busking. My point is that buskers need good solid, reliable, props as much or more so than anyone else. If you are making a living doing magic, you should buy the highest quality tool you can afford for the job. If you are a hobbyist that just does tricks for friends, get cheap mid quality stuff. It only has to last for a couple of performances in most cases. |
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Al Desmond Inner circle Secret Mountain Lair in Conifer, Co 1511 Posts |
And how does your audience distinguish a clad Johnson coin (let's assume a Johnson's expanded clad half) from a clad Lassen commercial clad coin (let's assume a Lassen's expanded clad half)? And how does that distinction alter the audiences perception of the quality of the performer or performance?
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Magician Shaun Special user Huntington BCH, CA 924 Posts |
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On 2013-04-22 08:46, Al Desmond wrote: you even read my post, or just the title? How do you know that the framer that built your home used Estwing or cheap $2 hammer? You don't and you don't care. This isn't about the audience. It's about the tools I chose to use in my profession. |
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Al Desmond Inner circle Secret Mountain Lair in Conifer, Co 1511 Posts |
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On 2013-04-22 09:31, Gr8gorilla wrote: I certainly read your whole post... and actually I could address a number of the points you made... and I was certainly addressing the tools you use... and many other magicians use... and I decided to present a simple point... the way your audience perceives your performance using those props. I have numerous flipper coins from both the custom manufacturers like Lassen and the commercial vendors like Johnson. They all perform well, do what they are suppose to do, hold up to usage and they... well... flip. The bottom line is... everything you do, all the props you use and your ability to amaze... has everything to do with the audience. I do care... and my bottom line is ALWAYS the audience. You can't divorce them from any phase of your magical journey... from concept to execution... you should have your audience in mind. I'm happy that you like the tools you use, and that you demand the best. I am saying that the best is not always a measure of a props ability to get the job done reliably. And I like your Facebook page... but one suggestion... that sign hanging from your portable close up table... the "Magic Show" sign... I really think you could have a professional sign maker (find the best) do better than that. I do care. |
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Magician Shaun Special user Huntington BCH, CA 924 Posts |
Ok, Al, sorry for my snappish reply. My post is/was meant to be a rebuttal to another thread. A separate discussion about how your props don't matter to the audience if you use them well and are a good entertainer would be the perfect place to discuss this. The point I was making really just had to do with fact that the choice of tools is really up to the artisan no matter his field. The end product is all the customer (in our case audience) cares about. But I really feel as if these are two separate and distinct discussions.
A person posted that they would never buy an expensive custom gaff because they recently dropped their Johnson gaff and damaged it. They couldn't imagine doing the same with an expensive custom prop. My statement was meant to highlight the differences between the tools that professional chooses and those that a hobbyist chooses. Not just in magic but in any type of work we do. Any of the tools mentioned get the job done for any of the mentioned professions. I would always argue that a hammer is a hammer but the framer would say I didn't understand and he likes buying $100 hammers. He is buying the hammer for himself. The pride he takes in his work and profession show in the end result but to other framers, his peers, he wants them to see that he swings the best hammer. Thus it is in magic. If you feel proud of your work you will take pride in all aspects of it. You will want the best tools that money can buy. You will justify this cost through earnings you get from performances. Your audience may not know the difference between a Lassen or a Johnson but you do. Your audience can perceive things in you that you don't mean for them too. An artisan proud of his tools will create a different end product than one who is not. This is really a philosophical discussion but one that I think everyone can understand. Do you see what I mean? Do you see why I feel we are talking about two different but connected subjects? I don't know if my ideas are clear, they seem so to me. |
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Magician Shaun Special user Huntington BCH, CA 924 Posts |
Oh, the sign. I forgot about that. It's part of the show. I like the silly handmade sign. Yes I could certainly afford to have a professional one made (would cost a lot less than coins) I just think it sets a certain mood. That is for my Street/Festival shows though, not for performing for private paid events. I think it is important to portray a certain image for street performing. Not cheap or poor just individual, unique, something that makes people go, ooooooooo. This is even harder to explain or talk about and I will have to say certainly deserves a thread in the sidewalk shuffle. Come on over there and lets talk more Al!
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mixman Loyal user Northern Colorado 294 Posts |
I have both a Johnson Kennedy expanded s*#ll and one that Todd custom made for me. I have used both in real life performances. The biggest difference is that the Johnson works great for effects in my hands. But when lying on the table next to other halves, it looks just a little off. Now granted, most spectators would probably not notice and the performer should be controlling their attention anyway. But with my Lassen set, the four coins can sit out there all day and you couldn't spot the difference with a magnifying glass. Perfect for coins thru or chink a chink. As far as cost goes. I believe the Johnson cost me $30.00 plus shipping. With the Lassen set,I actually sent him 8 matching Kennedys I bought at a coin shop. He picked out the 4 that were the closest to identical in size and created the s^*ll to perfectly fit those four. He even took one of the remaining Kennedys and made a karate coin for me which also fits in the s^*ll. All this cost me $65.00.
It has been mentioned above that these are just tools. and that is correct. but unlike a carpenter or a framer, our tools are being used in full view of the client and their appearance is an integral part of the performance. the bottom line is, if you are comfortable with the appearance and the performance of your tools, you are good to go. The audience will never know nor would they care that you are using a Lassen or Schoolcraft. Use what makes you look good and feel comfortable. |
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Magician Shaun Special user Huntington BCH, CA 924 Posts |
Mixman,
said something I failed to put into words. Our tools are on display and part of the end product. This is the thread that ties Al's and my points together. I think this is another reason for magicians to buy the best tool they can within reason. also said if the tools work then great and that is also true. Use what makes you happy. It's your performance after all. thread is simply my opinion please don't take it as if I am stating a fact or hard rule. It is just my opinion. |
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Al Desmond Inner circle Secret Mountain Lair in Conifer, Co 1511 Posts |
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On 2013-04-22 10:56, mixman wrote: I would basically agree with you if you were using gaffed quarters. You're using a coin that is hardly recognizable anymore by the general public. And you're looking at it from the point of view of someone who handles these sort of coins on a more steady basis than the general public. You know what they feel like, what the actual thickness looks like... how they sound. The general public doesn't. By all means buy the best coins you can afford... if that both pleases your professional sensibilities and your aesthetic values. But I disagree with your overall assumption that is the props that makes you look good. The bottom line is if you are good... then you are good to go. And please... don't leave your Lassen's out that long... they're going to get a sunburn. |
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Magician Shaun Special user Huntington BCH, CA 924 Posts |
I have to agree with one major point of Al's, a monkey with Lassen gaffs is not a great magician but simply a monkey smashing expensive silver gaffs...
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Chessmann Inner circle 4242 Posts |
My thinking:
With a 50 cent piece [ or flipper, there is surely no difference to the audience. With other gaffs, there is. I would never hold a Johnson C/S/B shell right under a spec's eyes with the insert on top (or, with the [ upside-down, if that makes sense). On the other hand, with a Lassen version done with the infinity edge, it would be an absolute pleasure to show the coin every which way but loose If I were going to do a performance, and lost a Lassen 50 cent piece flipper, and someone said, "Hey, you can use my Tango flipper", I wouldn't bat an eyelash. So, for somethings like a clad 50 cent piece [ or flipper, Johnson or Lassen makes little difference to the audience, but can for the performer (I like the fact that my Lassen ['s and inserts have no 'play' in them). For other gaffs common to both makers (C/S/B, Sun/Moon, etc...), there is a world of difference. *** Off-topic: For still others, Lassen is either the only one, or one of a very few, who manufacture certain things - either the effect, itself, or the effect in the desired coins. Again, just my own thinking.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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Al Desmond Inner circle Secret Mountain Lair in Conifer, Co 1511 Posts |
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On 2013-04-22 13:16, Chessmann wrote: I'm 60 years old. I've been performing professionally off and on for 38 years and when I wasn't performing I was producing various shows for various venues and booking talent. I've used, and the performers I have booked have used some of the coins you have mentioned above and I can't remember a single time ANYONE questioned the gaffs. Can someone explain to me this obsession with props over performance ability? Do you honestly think Giacomo Bertini, David Roth, Homer Liwag, Thomas Nelson Downs (I could go on for another paragraph) couldn't perform time after time with the lower priced gaffs you mentioned above and never be questioned on the "look" of the coins? I've already said it a number of times on this thread... I see nothing wrong with purchasing and using the custom made high priced coin gaffs. But any suggestion that you would get "caught" with the lower priced gaffs reflects only on the performer and his skills, not the coins. Not my own thinking. Facts... as I know them from a long road in this business. Style over performance... it a curse that I've seen infect so many magicians. If you haven't seen the "Wonderstone" movie (I just saw it yesterday)... please do so. Maybe you'll better understand where I am coming from. Make believe I'm Rance Holloway telling you these things. |
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Chessmann Inner circle 4242 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-04-22 13:53, Al Desmond wrote: Al, I think you may have responded to the wrong post, as I really didn't recognize what I wrote in your response. Never once did I suggest, for example, that *anyone* cannot perform superb magic with a Johnson shell. In fact, I stated that I would happily use a Tango flipper (or [, for that matter) in place of a Johnson, as - in the case of that gaff - there would be no difference to the audience! I did say, however, that higher end gaff-makers, due to their precision, make some nice little extras possible. As you were working among professionals, I am not surprised no one they performed for questioned the gaffs - they knew what they were doing, and how to perform with what they had. As to the list of performers you mentioned, of course (duh!) they could perform superbly with lower-end gaffs, but if they turned the shell over on a Johnson or Tango [ just inches from the spec's face, they would expose the gaff. The same would happen on a Lassen exp [ set. Naturally, they wouldn't do that. But if they were using a Lassen TWIAD or C/S/B, they could do that, if they chose to. And that is all I suggested.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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Al Desmond Inner circle Secret Mountain Lair in Conifer, Co 1511 Posts |
Quote:
[snip] This is a THREAD. Yours is not the only thought floating around these bits and bytes that make up a thread topic. A good part of my comment certainly addressed your post (or else how in heavens did you manage to respond with a rebuttal)? And the rest of my comment addressed ideas that have been batted around up thread. This method of communication may be all digital and we are not all sitting around the same table verbally communicating... but it's still a conversation. |
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Chessmann Inner circle 4242 Posts |
Yes, Al, I know this is a thread.
But as you quoted my post in your response, and not others, I thought you were responding to (or had mistakenly responded to) my particular post in that particular response from you.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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Al Desmond Inner circle Secret Mountain Lair in Conifer, Co 1511 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-04-22 16:30, Chessmann wrote: I'll try one more time "A good part of my comment certainly addressed your post (or else how in heavens did you manage to respond with a rebuttal)?" |
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Chessmann Inner circle 4242 Posts |
Don't worry, Al. I got it.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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bowers Inner circle Oakboro N.C. 7024 Posts |
Its true a lot of coin routiens can be performed
with low or high end galfs.But very close slow views of the coins at different angles would expose some of the galfs.and there is no talking of the coins with the high end galfs. Todd |
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BanzaiMagic Inner circle 1339 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-04-22 13:53, Al Desmond wrote: Stradivarii are not necessary for a beautiful violin performance, but in the right hands, they can make for a better performance - yet the audience may never know that a Strad is being played. Perhaps the Strad is a challenge to the performer to always give a performance that lives up to the potential of the instrument, or perhaps it really does improve the performance. Whichever, it serves it's purpose. I think that is why the best coin magic performers today all have their favorite high end gaffers. I think that is why Roth uses beautiful matching Walker Half dollars in his performances. The fact that these performers can perform with lesser cost and quality props, but don't, speaks volumes. Alan |
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David Neighbors V.I.P. 4910 Posts |
I always Use Barbar's half's! For 3 reasons 1. I get the junk silver So when I get then they are always vary Soft! So they are Not as hard to work with! 2. They are vary thin! You can set 5 Barbar's down by a set of 4 walkers And they are the same! So I can back palm 3 With less work! And 3. I can hand them out to be looked at because they are OLD Coins, Using the Grandpa Story! So I was vary happy when I could talk Todd In to make gaffs for them! So then I could combine Soft coin work with gaff coin work!!! Ok that's my 2 cents!
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