The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Forcing is not growing vegetables out of season... (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
Chad Sanborn
View Profile
Inner circle
my fingers hurt from typing,
2206 Posts

Profile of Chad Sanborn
This post is an outgrowth of an earlier discussion in the "actually selecting cards" thread. In my last post there, I brought up some very interesting points. Why do we force cards? What card trick is better because you forced a card? I can't think of any! So why do magicans force cards? because they can?

This is going to be a controversial subject. I know. But I think (just my personal opinion, and we all have those just like we all have...well certain bodily orifices) I think that magicians get some sort of a rush from forcing a card. You feel somehow superior. You made them do something they didn't want to do, and they don't have a clue you did it. And I think we do it, to reinforce to ourselves how superior we are.

Most people who get into magic, were loners when they were young. Maybe we even got picked on. Then we saw a magician. And we thought, "I wish I could do that." Which translates into, "I want to be able to do things that no one else can do." We feel that the magician we saw was superior to us because he could do these things. And because of our own need for attention we too become magicians. And we then need people to want to "wish they were like us". Again feeding our need for attention. But then we study magic and realise that it is all just a bunch of secret actions that nobody is ever supposed to see! Wow!

That does something to our subconscious. Which is why most of us have some sort of a "tell" when we do sleights. We want to be recognized for our skill, but we can't let you see the secret moves. A catch 22.

This is why I feel most of us have a need to force cards. It is a way to feed that need of superiority.
Again, just my 2 cents worth on the subject.

Chad
Thomas Wayne
View Profile
Inner circle
Alaska
2240 Posts

Profile of Thomas Wayne
There are only two reasons I would ever force a card:

1) Because a specific routine requires that the spectator "select" a certain card. There are some GREAT routines that require a forced card; I certainly wouldn't walk away from them just because you think magic has somehow "evolved" away from forcing a card.

2) Because it's good practice for when I absolutely need to hit a force for a certain routine, as mentioned in #1 above.

Finally, speak for yourself about having a "tell" when you do a sleight; I work VERY hard to keep my secret sleights secret. Contrary to your assertion, many of us prefer to be recognized for being ENTERTAINING, not "for our skill" (which is really just showing off).

Regards,
Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Mark Ennis
View Profile
Inner circle
Raleigh, NC
1030 Posts

Profile of Mark Ennis
Chadmagic. I couldn't disagree with you more. When I perform magic, or even when I construct a magical effect, I take into consideration what I need to do to accomplish my goal. If the effect in question requires them to pick a card from a certain suit (as in John Bannon's effect Play It Straight") or a specific card, it is because it is an integral part of the effect. Any card I end up forcing I try to make look as fairly as possible.

Also, not every single effect that requires a card to be selected requires the card to be removed by a spectator, even if it is a completely free selection. You may not want a spectator in a restaurant to handle a deck of cards if they have just finished eating ribs or maybe the spectator is sitting too far away to have you conveniently have them remove a card.

There are many incredibly strong effects that require you to force a card and it is not done to show off the magicians skill.
ME
mysticz
View Profile
Special user
D.C. metro area
680 Posts

Profile of mysticz
My favorite force is a mental card force using a pressure fan. It's not infallible, but nine times out of ten I can force an apparently mentally selected card on a spectator.

I don't perform this force because I "get a rush" or to feel "superior" to an audience member (jeez, chad, get a grip). I use this as one part of an impromptu mentalism billet routine in order to get "one ahead." Magic techniques (or sleights) are tools we use to get a job done, not to feel superior.

At least they are to some of us.

JZ
Joe Zabel
"Psychic Sorcery"

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

-- Shakespeare's Hamlet I.v. 174-175
Chad Sanborn
View Profile
Inner circle
my fingers hurt from typing,
2206 Posts

Profile of Chad Sanborn
And yet no one can name a trick that requires a force that is stronger than a signed card effect.
And yet you all still defend the force.

An MYSTICZ, the optical fan force you describe is not 100%. It can fail. So it is not so much a force as a way to increase the odds in your favor. A force works 100%.Thats why it is called a force.

Like I said before, this is just MY OPINION.

You don't have to agree with it. But those of you who think about it, will do better magic because of it.

Chad
Scott F. Guinn
View Profile
Inner circle
"Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G"
6582 Posts

Profile of Scott F. Guinn
Chad,

I agree with you--YOU shouldn't do a force if you feel that way about it.

Scott
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page
Kaliix
View Profile
Inner circle
Connecticut
1437 Posts

Profile of Kaliix
Chadmagic,
First off your changing the rules. You first stated "What card trick is better becasue you forced a card?" and then changed it to "And yet noone can name a trick that requires a force that is stronger than a signed card effect." Which is it?

To answer your first question, and realize that I am not even a card guy, I would name Red Hot Mama, Overkill, Reformation, Chaptrick, and Anniversary Waltz (A.W. is both a forced and signed card trick by the way) off the top of my head, along with any card trick that ends with the card being printed or shown on something else, ie. card silk, card pen, card crystal or wiregram.

You also stated, "But then we study magic and realise that it is all just a bunch of secret actions that nobody is ever supposed to see! Wow! That does something to our subconscious. Which is why most of us have some sort of a "tell" when we do sleights. We want to be recognized for our skill, but we can't let you see the secret moves. A catch 22. This is why I feel most of us have a need to force cards. It is a way to feed that need of superiority."

I know some magicians who probably were shy and introverted as kids. I know many others who got into magic because they are outgoing and like to perform, they just like practicing card sleights, they just like to amaze people.

If I force a card, I do it because it strengthens the trick, like in Red Hot Mama. Sure I could just show the card as red once but doing a second time while forcing a card is much greater climax. I don't force cards because I need to feel superior, that has got nothing to do with it. I realize most magic tricks are really pretty simple and if I people just knew the secret, it wouldn't be that amazing.

Most card moves have a tell that have nothing to do with the subconcious. There is a tell because those who are magicians know what to look for. Most magicians I know have no tell's for their moves other than ones only magicians can see.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
dannywhit
View Profile
Regular user
Oak Ridge,TN
121 Posts

Profile of dannywhit
All I know is that forcing a card makes life a lot easier for magicians. Try throwing the spec's card threw a window without using a force. I would think it would be pretty hard to do. No cofeds involed either.
mysticz
View Profile
Special user
D.C. metro area
680 Posts

Profile of mysticz
"An MYSTICZ, the optical fan force you describe is not 100%. It can fail. So it is not so much a force as a way to increase the odds in your favor. A force works 100%.Thats why it is called a force."

And I suppose a classic force isn't a force because it is not 100%, just like the fan force.

It's called a FORCE because the performer is putting the spectator in the position to most likely choose a certain card, whether you place it in his fingers or compel him think of it.

Your opinion is based on pretty shaky ground,
as is your psychology in this matter. I agree with Scott G., you'd better leave card forces to those performers best equipped to use them.

JZ


And
Joe Zabel
"Psychic Sorcery"

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

-- Shakespeare's Hamlet I.v. 174-175
Garrett Nelson
View Profile
Special user
644 Posts

Profile of Garrett Nelson
Well, I wasn't picked on when I was younger, so maybe my reply doesn't count Smile

But seriously, I think there are many effects where a force makes an effect very strong.

An example of an effect I use very often is “Kartenkunste” by D. Ortiz. I have to control the suit. If I wanted, I could even have it signed after I force it(!).

I also have effects where the card selected is gaffed in some way. I think limiting myself by not using the gaffed card would lessen my performance. And since it was a “free choice”, having a gaff is more likely to remain above suspicion.

Just my thoughts.
armagic
View Profile
New user
79 Posts

Profile of armagic
I agree with you Chad, but only to a certain degree. Some forces are basically ineffective in many routines, and many free selection routines are stronger than routines with forces. However this all goes two ways. I also agree that SOME performers have had some trouble in the social food chain in their younger years. However this also goes both ways. I agree with Thomas Wayne when he says many performers, myself included, want attention for their ability to entertain, not for their "skill" or finger flinging. Forces are just like any other tool in magic. If used properly they can be effective. If used as a way to show your "skill" they can backfire, or become non-entertaining "tricks." Now you do have a right to your own opinion, as we all have a right to our own. If you didn't want input, you shouldn't have disscussed it in The Cafe.

Just MY opinion.
Andrew
Smile
gmartins
View Profile
New user
Portugal
88 Posts

Profile of gmartins
I've already shared my opinions on other post also started by Chad but I'll complete them here.

Some effects on card magic are only possible because of forcing!!! Any prediction effect (Wiregram for example) is only possible because of the forcing. It is so strong, because people think you can make a wire take the shape of ANY card.

And I don't understand comparing forcing to signed card. You can make great effects with both of them and even stronger combining them, as Kaliix pointed out.

I don't feel superior when I force a card. I really don't. If I want to know the card the spectator picked, I can also glimpse it or use marked cards. So forcing is just another tool. As Dai Vernon said: "Sleights are just tools. What you do with them it's up to you".

About showing your skill... Smile If you want to show your skill go to your magic club and hang out with other magicians! Smile I honestly like to discuss my pass or other sleight with other magicians, and make me feels good showing that move I've been practicing for months. But that's for other magicians. Lay people want to be entertained. They don't care if you control a card with a pass, double undercut or diagonal shift! Smile
Just some ideas.

Goncalo
Gonçalo Martins
Paul
View Profile
Inner circle
A good lecturer at your service!
4394 Posts

Profile of Paul
re;
And yet no one can name a trick that requires a force that is stronger than a signed card effect. And yet you all still defend the force.

Hmmm, how about the three of spades trick where you produce an actual garden spade from behind a prediction banner. Or Khyber Cobra from Collectors Workshop? Or..
I could go on.

Most of my card tricks are none force tricks, but I still use forces occasionally.
Some forced card tricks are also signed card tricks!!! Regal's Altered States for instance.

Hollingworth's Reformation is a forced card isn't it?

I get no more a rush from forcing a card than any other trick I perform. I am willing to use any or all the tools at my disposal for the purpose of entertaining. If you don't want to, that's up to you. I hardly consider it a controversial decision. Simply a personal choice you may or may not change further down the road.

re;
But those of you who think about it, will do better magic because of it.

That is a nonsense statement. I'm not sure how you can possibly come to that conclusion. Smile

I've probably forgotten more none force tricks than you've learnt and I'm sure my magic wouldn't suddenly be better if I stopped forcing a card now and again.

re;
This is why I feel most of us have a need to force cards. It is a way to feed that need of superiority.

Max Maven once wrote about some people coming into magic for that superiority feeling, of being cleverer than the person watching. But if that is a scenario, you can feel superior with a self working trick so I think the connection with forcing is superfluous.

Paul Hallas
Stephen Long
View Profile
Inner circle
1481 Posts

Profile of Stephen Long
Quote:
On 2002-05-23 14:39, chadmagic wrote:
You don't have to agree with it. But those of you who think about it, will do better magic because of it.


Surely the more options you keep open, the more weapons you have in your arsenal, the less you reject ideas in magic, the more likely you are to perform better magic because of it.

If you choose not to force cards because you will be a better magician if you don't ( Smile ) then go for it.
But you will be limiting your miracles severely (IMO...)

Just the other day I forced the only blue backed card in a red backed deck on someone using a force of Mike Close's that conceals the back of the card being forced.
I did a teeny ambitious card routine with it before Erdnase colour changing its back to a completely different colour and handing it out (or rather having it snatched) for examination.
Was the audience blown away?
Certainly.

I always enjoy talking to audiences after I've performed.
It seemed like they preferred the effect mentioned above over my card to wallet (which used a signed card).

So I would, like many others here, argue to the contrary.
There are plenty of fantasitc effects that use forced cards.
Alex Elmsley's "Between the Palms" springs to mind, as does Ortiz's "Signature Effect" (which forces a card which has already been signed -- an interesting idea, no?)

As a quick personal aside, I find your generalization that "most magicians were loners" a little absurd and based on nothing more than speculation.

Step
hen
Hello.
freaksrock62
View Profile
New user
70 Posts

Profile of freaksrock62
I gotta disagree. I have found that forcing a card is essential to good few of the best tricks I have seen...wiregram being one of the best. A few of my better tricks were tricks from the Force Chapter in Royal Road to Card Magic. To each his own i guess.
La dee frickin' da!
I live in a van down by the river!
Steve Brooks
View Profile
Founder / Manager
Northern California - United States
4817 Posts

Profile of Steve Brooks
Chad,
obviously you have some very personal feelings on why magicians perform, and also a theory on the use of forcing.
This is very important for you, as is apparent in your emotional post. Smile

I'm sure that for you, these thoughts apply. However, for most of us, it would appear to be another matter. And if that's the case...so what? You do what works for you, and we shall do the same. Smile

I still live by the following:
The effect is what counts, and presentation is everything.
Smile
"Always be you because nobody else can" - Steve Brooks
Chad Sanborn
View Profile
Inner circle
my fingers hurt from typing,
2206 Posts

Profile of Chad Sanborn
Well, at least you are all thinking.
Which was the whole idea behind this. As stated earlier, I do what works best forme. And I found that by not having cards selected, or forced, that the audience was less confrontational. It is all only a matter of personal choice and trying to find out what works best for YOU!

Chad
Danny Hustle
View Profile
Inner circle
Boston, MA USA
2393 Posts

Profile of Danny Hustle
Quote:
On 2002-05-24 07:05, chadmagic wrote:
Well, at least you are all thinking.
Which was the whole idea behind this. As stated earlier, I do what works best forme. And I found that by not having cards selected, or forced, that the audience was less confrontational. It is all only a matter of personal choice and trying to find out what works best for YOU!

Chad



Chad,

Everytime I have a card selected I force a card. 90% of the tricks I do with cards do not require it but I still do it.

It is not because of any cheap thrill, it is because it is good magic. By Always forcing a card I do it skillfully, without thought, naturally. NO ONE ever suspects or has accused me of forcing a card.

Forcing is a skill that should be developed by any magician with an interest in cards, as should he have a method of controlling a card, and palming a card.

I could name hundreds of GREAT tiricks that use a force. If you can not think of several you should spend some more time studying this subject.

It might make you think about magic in a way you thought was impossible.

Use the force Chad. Smile

Best,

Dan-
Image

"MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm
©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved.
Geoff Williams
View Profile
Special user
St. Pete Beach, FL
615 Posts

Profile of Geoff Williams
Quote:
On 2002-05-23 13:14, chadmagic wrote:
Most people who get into magic, were loners when they were young.


Chad,

Not sure where you got this tidbit of trivia but I would beg to differ. Most of the magical entertainers I know were outgoing and very sociable in their youth.

Perhaps you were thinking of serial killers? Smile
"Saját légpárnás tele van angolnák."

(Hungarian for "My hovercraft is full of eels")
Paul
View Profile
Inner circle
A good lecturer at your service!
4394 Posts

Profile of Paul
Hmmm, serial killer magicians? Now there's a thought. Maybe the masked magician will turn out to be Jason Vohrees in the next exposure show which will climax with a massacre of Fox TV executives?

Might be as much fun as Killer Clowns From Outer Space.

Paul Hallas.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Forcing is not growing vegetables out of season... (0 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.29 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL