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Justin N. Miller Inner circle 2457 Posts 
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On 2013-05-14 07:53, Suux88 wrote: Majority of the new effects are not on my site. Glad your enjoying aftershock! JM |
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Michael Peterson Inner circle is where I'm trapped, because of my 4071 Posts
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On 2013-05-13 22:56, Justin N. Miller wrote: Hey Justin, I love your work & fully support your efforts.I just can't do business with a company that doesn't support products they manufacture/sell even when I offer to pay for help. Sorry I have to miss out on these, they both look great! Thanks, Mike |
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mfeld Elite user San Francisco 457 Posts
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It's undeniable that many of the phases of the "Divorce" routine are great, tried and true effects, but that's because most (if not all) of these phases are lifted straight out of the repertoires of magicians like Garrett Thomas, Apollo Robbins, Calen Morelli, and others. I'm sincerely curious to hear what's actually new here since I'm not sure I see what it is.
I'm also glad to hear from Justin (earlier in this thread) that he gives credit to the magicians who actually created the effects he's teaching here, but that raises the question: why release this at all? What is new here that merits a new release at all and (to Justin) what do you think of as "yours" in this routine such that you're releasing it yourself even though it is composed (as far as I can see) entirely out of already marketed or characteristic effects by other people?
Michael Feldman
www.michaelfeldman.com Or follow me on Twitter - @magicianmike And Instagram - @magicianmichaelfeldman Check out my newest book with Ryan Plunkett: A New Angle https://www.ryancplunkett.com/project/anewangle |
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The One Veteran user 325 Posts
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Hi Michael, (or justin) could you describe which phase belongs to who? I'd like to check out the original source. Thanks.
I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end...
I came here... To tell you how this is going to begin. |
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Justin N. Miller Inner circle 2457 Posts
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On 2013-05-15 23:38, mfeld wrote: Do you have the download? If you do you would know that I bring quite a few ideas that are mine to the table. JM |
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Justin N. Miller Inner circle 2457 Posts
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On 2013-05-16 13:19, The One wrote: Ring thing garrett Thomas ( I added the lick down) Slap on Simply Harkey Coin on shoulder appolo, ( I have been doing this Since I was 13) Ring through Finger , mine, patrick kun, Alex ward, magik, all independently created this. Mine has a lot more work on it, plus I'm the first one to pull it through the specs finger. Transpo and kick back mine. First published in the TSC sessions with b.smith in 2008. Hope that helps. JM |
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dman11 Inner circle USA 1068 Posts
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"What is new here that merits a new release at all and (to Justin) what do you think of as "yours" in this routine such that you're releasing it yourself even though it is composed (as far as I can see) entirely out of already marketed or characteristic effects by other people?"
As a "noob-ish" guy, id like to add to this that its impossible to get out there and see everything that's been done in the past. If it werent re-releases \updates like these, I would never get to see or learn them. Is it really so bad that great tricks get re-released for the newer generations to enjoy? As long as there is proper crediting of course. I got both - thanks Justin |
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Justin N. Miller Inner circle 2457 Posts
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On 2013-05-16 14:54, dman11 wrote: Thanks dman, And as you can see from these downloads, it is NOT just a re-release of already published material. It is a fresh new take on a lot of these. They deserve the light of day in the art and proper crediting is given on all. My haters like to try really hard to put me down, I am use to it and find it amusing. I am sooo happy you are enjoying the routines. JM |
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mfeld Elite user San Francisco 457 Posts
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I don't have the download. That's why I asked if there was anything new, since it didn't seem so from the performance that's available. I'm not in the habit of buying products that don't appear to add anything to existing knowledge on the off chance that there might be something new that isn't actually shown in the performance.
But it sounds like: For Garrett Thomas' Ring Thing, you added a lick down? I have no idea what that is, but from the performance online it looks identical to Garrett's effect. Maybe its a minor handling nuance? For the Harkey Move, it seems that you're not claiming anything new, so I'm really not sure why you've dropped that right into a routine you're claiming as your own. For the Apollo thing, I know it's an old technique, but it's definitely not original to this routine or you, Justin. The fact that you've been doing it a long time doesn't make it yours, right? I've been doing Guy Hollingworth's triumph since I was 13. I'm not about to publish it under my name. For the ring penetration, even with the benefit of the doubt that it was independent invention, it's definitely been out there a long time and putting it on the spectators hand since like a handling nuance rather than a new effect, like using a pinky count rather than a pushoff. So it sounds like the only thing you're really claiming originality for is the transpo and kickback. Even if we move past the fact that it seems to me to be a fairly standard coin effect with what appear to be bobo switches, why not just release that since that is the part you claim is yours? There have been a couple of times where I perform other people's material as a part of a routine that I came up with, but when I release it, I don't sell or teach the part that belongs to someone else. Finally, since you seem to indicate that you're either added small handling touches or nothing to the first four phases, did you ask permission from Garrett Thomas, David Harkey, Patrick Kun, and Apollo?
Michael Feldman
www.michaelfeldman.com Or follow me on Twitter - @magicianmike And Instagram - @magicianmichaelfeldman Check out my newest book with Ryan Plunkett: A New Angle https://www.ryancplunkett.com/project/anewangle |
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mfeld Elite user San Francisco 457 Posts
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On 2013-05-16 14:54, dman11 wrote: Hey Dman, There will always be old material out there and that's why it often pays to go digging into the past for great performing repertoire, but I'm not sure I agree with someone re-releasing other peoples material without permission. That's why I asked Justin (above) if he's asked for permission from these guys. Also, I'm all about rereleases of fantastic material or reprints of fantastic books. But don't you think that should come from the person who actually created the trick or wrote the book (or at least with their permission)?
Michael Feldman
www.michaelfeldman.com Or follow me on Twitter - @magicianmike And Instagram - @magicianmichaelfeldman Check out my newest book with Ryan Plunkett: A New Angle https://www.ryancplunkett.com/project/anewangle |
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dman11 Inner circle USA 1068 Posts
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"Also, I'm all about rereleases of fantastic material or reprints of fantastic books."
Well, re-releases are rare as far as I can tell. I would love a copy of "Card Craft" but they wont release it. "But don't you think that should come from the person who actually created the trick or wrote the book (or at least with their permission)?" This will be a gray area with diehards that want to protect the older material and whoever owns it. And that's fine. But, I'm all for "lets get it out there to enjoy" school of thought, instead of the material burried in some old books that I cant find or that I don't even know exists. Its like if I go to a wedding, I don't expect to see the original artists\bands playing there. Someone else is up on stage keeping those hit songs alive, and everyone is still enjoying it. |
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mfeld Elite user San Francisco 457 Posts
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On 2013-05-16 15:40, dman11 wrote: The difference being that the cover band has to pay the original artist to play the songs (more acurately, they have to pay ASCAP or BMI who are, in turn, responsible for paying the original artists). On that analogy, I am totally with you that if Justin is paying David Harkey, Garrett Thomas, Patrick Kun, and Apollo Robbins, he's doing the right thing.
Michael Feldman
www.michaelfeldman.com Or follow me on Twitter - @magicianmike And Instagram - @magicianmichaelfeldman Check out my newest book with Ryan Plunkett: A New Angle https://www.ryancplunkett.com/project/anewangle |
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Brandon Sheffield Regular user 147 Posts
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Hey Michael!!
Love your stuff, have most of it 
I think I get what you are saying. But I also do not see anything wrong with what Justin has done here. The final phase is his, the pull through he says was independently created and if there is no to know for sure who came up with it first, then it should be fair game for any of those guys to release it and profit from it. I don't know about the first two phases and how that should work. If he got Garrett's permission then all should be good. Im not defending anyone either. There are guys on here way smarter than me that would probably say otherwise. How does this work in the context of a card routine? If you had a routine that involved using Marlo's tilt/Vernon's depth illusion (has anyone figured out the actual answer to that??) And either magician were still alive, would you have to ask for permission to use it? Or is it fair game once a magician has passed away? I have always wondered about stuff like that! Brandon |
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dman11 Inner circle USA 1068 Posts
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"The difference being that the cover band has to pay the original artist to play the songs (more acurately, they have to pay ASCAP or BMI who are, in turn, responsible for paying the original artists). On that analogy, I am totally with you that if Justin is paying David Harkey, Garrett Thomas, Patrick Kun, and Apollo Robbins, he's doing the right thing."
I know what your saying there but 99.9% of cover bands never pay a dime to BMI or ASCAP. Just does not happen. With this rule, everytime we perform sponge balls, should we be sending payment to the creator? Im sure most people have not purchased the original instruction for this routine. Michael, I am not saying your thoughts and opinions are wrong. not at all, I just don't think its realistic if we all want a way to enjoy some of this stuff 
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atouchofmagic1 Elite user 470 Posts
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Justin I want to chime in and say I really enjoy the routine. Not a lot however was new to me except for the pull through move and the transpo/kickback. I own Garrett's DVD Ring Thing (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED BTW) so nothing really new there. I learned the Harkey Move years ago from my old mentor in magic back in my middle school days...The coin on shoulder I have learned from a few different sources (Apollo & Wilson). I know in the routine credit is given where it is needed but a lot has been done before.
What I love is how the routine is thought out and flows very naturally from one effect to the next. Its not all jumbled up, everything is motivated and justified. I think you put out a good release here just my humble opinion. As long as creators are given credit and hopefully notified then all should be well. Keep up the awesome work. |
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atouchofmagic1 Elite user 470 Posts
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On 2013-05-16 17:38, atouchofmagic1 wrote: Might I add that I have done the transpo type effects with coins in the past but never would have thought about it with a specs ring... (quite a clever bit of thinking there) really adds an emotional element to the effect. |
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Xcath1 Inner circle 3066 Posts
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Interesting topic.
Some people seem to take more heat than others for "re-using" moves from other creators to construct a slightly re-imagined routine. I have (and paid for) most of the original source material credited and very much enjoyed learning the original moves. I had not put the moves together in quite the way Justin had and I purchased and am enjoying his routine. I don't know enough about the magic business to know how often permission is asked, given, or paid for when using other people’s material. With copyrights hard to protect it seem to frequently be a case of courtesy and what is the generally accepted age and distribution of a move before people consider it “public domain” Justin does not come across as the most humble or deferential guy and I don’t know it this affects Michael’s willingness to speak out about the routine. I don’t expect to hear from Harkey or Shoot but Garrett might weigh in or stay out of the fray. |
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magicduro Special user Las Vegas 529 Posts
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If you think about the construction of most card magic, the tools or sleights usually belong to someone else. It is the combination and application of these tools that creates the effect.
In that regard, Justin's combination of moves is unique. I think the routine is great! |
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Zombie Magic Inner circle I went out for a beer and now have 8733 Posts
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Justin is one of the best in magic at routine construction!
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Justin N. Miller Inner circle 2457 Posts
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I talked with garrett personally on the phone and he was totally fine with it, giving him full credit of course.
Every single move that is not mine has been public domain, taught on a dvd, download, lecture notes, or some sort of media. Thank you all for the support. Lol the magic police must need to make quota this month. JM |
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Latest and Greatest? » » Justin Miller's AFTERSHOCK and DIVORCE (7 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: May 14, 2013 04:36 pm 
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