The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Going Against The Grain Of Churches. (How to avoid) (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
Mike Maturen
View Profile
Inner circle
Michigan's Beautiful Sunrise Side
2726 Posts

Profile of Mike Maturen
Perhaps you didn't mean it this way, but I will take this comment as a direct slam against the Catholic Church and it's use of relics. I will also say that if this is what you believe, then you simply do not understand what Catholics teach about relics...nor what the Scriptures teach about them.


Quote:
On 2013-05-30 10:26, Danny Kazam wrote:
While some church's may not condone magic, there are some churches that are highly superstitious and harbour religious relics claiming they have some kind of power. Most of those relics are fake, others are just morbid.

Mike Maturen
World of Wonder Entertainment
The Magic and Mayhem of Mike Maturen
989-335-1661
mikematuren@gmail.com

AUTHOR OF "A NEW DAWN--Weekly Wisdom From Everyday Life"

member: International Magician's Society
Danny Kazam
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of Danny Kazam
Gosh, golly gee. I won't get into detail, but it was not a direct attack on the Catholic Chuch. The Catholic Church is not the only church that is in possesion of relics that supposively contain some type of supernatural powers.

It is also very correct to say that many of them are fake. For example, the bones of Mary Madeline. There are so many bones out there claiming to be her bones that the amount of bones out there make up 5 skeletons.

Some protestant Churches claim to have for example, and even sell viles of water they claim can heal diseases.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Mike Maturen
View Profile
Inner circle
Michigan's Beautiful Sunrise Side
2726 Posts

Profile of Mike Maturen
VLAD:

Thank you...you got to the post before I could!

You back in the Netherlands yet?

In Jesus Maestro!
Mike Maturen
World of Wonder Entertainment
The Magic and Mayhem of Mike Maturen
989-335-1661
mikematuren@gmail.com

AUTHOR OF "A NEW DAWN--Weekly Wisdom From Everyday Life"

member: International Magician's Society
Mike Maturen
View Profile
Inner circle
Michigan's Beautiful Sunrise Side
2726 Posts

Profile of Mike Maturen
Danny:

Here's what SCRIPTURE has to say about relics...what say YOU?

What Does Scripture Say About Relics?

(1) The starting point for an examination of Scripture on this point should be Acts 19:11-12:
God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.
That's what Catholics believe about relics, nothing more, nothing less. Look at the elements:

The objects in question are “handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him,” what Catholics would call Paul's relics.
These relics are producing miraculous healings, without Paul doing anything.
These healings are still a way that God performed “extraordinary miracles through Paul.”
These are actual miracles, not simply some placebo effect.
So the first thing we can say is that what Catholics believe about relics seems very much to be how Scripture describes relics. There are people healed because they got to touch a relic of St. Paul's. But why does God do this? I think that there's a hint in the fact that these are counted as “extraordinary miracles through Paul.” It's a sign of God's favor on a particular Saint. One of the ways we determine if a given person is in Heaven is if God performs miracles when we pray to that person. If He does, it seems to confirm that His favor is upon them, just as the Resurrection showed that the Father's favor was upon Jesus Christ. Finally, though, the fact that Paul doesn't actually do the miracle -- God does -- shows that while the Saints are honored and blessed by God, He's still the one in the driver's seat. The Saints lead us to God, and always refused any attempt to be made into gods themselves (see Acts 14:11-15).

(2) But these miraculous relics weren't limited to Paul. In Acts 5:12-16, we hear
The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number.
As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed.
Again, we see the same thing: a relic of the Saints (here, the mere shadow of Peter) brings about innumerable blessings, miracles, and healings.And the reason is for the same reason that the Apostles were performing “signs and wonders among the people.” It showed that these men come from God, and that their message is true.

(3) We see this in the life of Christ Himself. Mark 5:25-34:
And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?”
“You see the people crowding against you,” his disciples answered, “and yet you can ask, ‘Who touched me?’” But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.”
This is a very different miracle from the ones we're used to. Here, simply touching the clothing of Christ heals this woman, before He's even aware that she's there. Mark actually makes a point of including the fact that He felt the power go out from Him, but still asked who it was who had touched Him. And Jesus ascribes the healing to the woman's faith, although it's clear that His own power is the operative power of healing. She's got the faith to believe that simply to touch something worn by Christ is sufficient to be healed. Some Protestants consider that superstition, but our Lord apparently does not.

(4) Go back to the Old Testament, to Elisha. 2 Kings 13:20-21 says,
Elisha died and was buried. Now Moabite raiders used to enter the country every spring. Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man’s body into Elisha’s tomb. When the body touched Elisha’s bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet.
This passage is important, because it shows that the Saint isn't actively performing these, in the way that other miracles are performed. Even after Elisha's dead, God works through him. That's the reason relics work, at the end of the day: because God wills to use all sorts of things to bring about healing and salvation. But He doesn't choose randomly - in every case, it's either been His Son or the Saints who He works through.

(5) Finally, we know that the early Church used relics, as well. That is, just as Elisha's bones show that healing relics pre-date the New Testament, the early Church shows that they continue on after the New Testament. Let's take just a couple example. First, through Eusebius (c. 263-339 A.D.) and Caius (early 200s), we know that the early Church kept the “trophies” of St. Peter and St. Paul in the Vatican.

St. Augustine, beloved by Catholics and Protestants alike, said that in Book XXII, Chapter 8 of City of God that:
For even now miracles are wrought in the name of Christ, whether by His sacraments or by the prayers or relics of His saints; but they are not so brilliant and conspicuous as to cause them to be published with such glory as accompanied the former miracles.
That's pretty clear. Likewise, St. Ambrose of Milan, writing in the latter half of the fourth century, wrote:
For after I had dedicated the basilica, many, as it were, with one mouth began to address me, and said: Consecrate this as you did the Roman basilica. And I answered: "Certainly I will if I find any relics of martyrs." And at once a kind of prophetic ardour seemed to enter my heart.

Why should I use many words? God favoured us, for even the clergy were afraid who were bidden to clear away the earth from the spot before the chancel screen of SS. Felix and Nabor. I found the fitting signs, and on bringing in some on whom hands were to be laid, the power of the holy martyrs became so manifest, that even whilst I was still silent, one was seized and thrown prostrate at the holy burial-place.
The first paragraph refers to a Catholic practice - in consecrating a Church, we embed the relics of a Saint. As you can see, this custom is not new. A little later, in the same letter, Ambrose writes:
On the following day we translated the relics to the basilica called Ambrosian. During the translation a blind man was healed [...] They [the Arians] deny that the blind man received sight, but he denies not that he is healed. He says: I who could not see now see. He says: I ceased to be blind, and proves it by the fact.
So relics were widely used, venerated (there are folks falling prostrate!), and are bringing about miraculous cures. What we see is that from the Old Testament, down through the New, through the times of the early Church, all the way to the present, the same central things have been believed about relics. Catholics simply conform with this Scriptural belief. It's not idolatry or superstition. It's good old-fashioned Bible religion.
Mike Maturen
World of Wonder Entertainment
The Magic and Mayhem of Mike Maturen
989-335-1661
mikematuren@gmail.com

AUTHOR OF "A NEW DAWN--Weekly Wisdom From Everyday Life"

member: International Magician's Society
Danny Kazam
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of Danny Kazam
Oh boy. Smile

I will show my respect by not engaging in this ridiculous and inappropriate argument. I stand by my comments, and do not wish to drag the Catholic Church through the mud to prove that my previous statement is factual and valid. History speaks for itself, and many relics have been proven to be fake, not just in the Catholic Church, but in many other churches as well.

Not sure if Vlad deleted his post or someone else did, but it was a wise move.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Mike Maturen
View Profile
Inner circle
Michigan's Beautiful Sunrise Side
2726 Posts

Profile of Mike Maturen
Typical.
Mike Maturen
World of Wonder Entertainment
The Magic and Mayhem of Mike Maturen
989-335-1661
mikematuren@gmail.com

AUTHOR OF "A NEW DAWN--Weekly Wisdom From Everyday Life"

member: International Magician's Society
Payne
View Profile
Inner circle
Seattle
4572 Posts

Profile of Payne
I love relics. My mediaeval faire act has a few effects built around the selling of them. A popular pastime in the middle ages. They were the first "tourist Attractions". The great Cathedrals fighting over the choicest ones to attract the maximum number of pilgrims to their sanctuaries. There are many wonderful historical accounts of raiding parties stealing Saints bones from one church so they could be installed in another.
Sure, all of them were fake. But it's all about belief and faith and that all important connection to the past. It is yet another tie to the older pagan belief systems that the Catholic church absorbed as it spread through the crumbling Roman Empire.
But there is (like most things) biblical support for the veneration of the saints and the collection of relics. A particularly good article can be found here http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/02/b......its.html
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Danny Kazam
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of Danny Kazam
Exactly. And the reason I typically did not want to argue with Mike. My post had nothing to do with biblical support for the veneration of the saints and the collection of relics. Nor was I directly just referring to the Catholic Church.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
MagicBus
View Profile
Inner circle
Kalamazoo, Michigan
2875 Posts

Profile of MagicBus
As my grandfather used to say to me, "If you're not Dutch, you're not much." I mention this due to the "old country" Netherlands comment above to Vlad. I think "Bus" means "pocket" in Dutch, there are lots of Buses in the Netherlands still. My grandfather was a shoe cobbler and his shop was located about a mile from my current office. I hope I visit there someday, but I have a wonderful Dutch bankery (Boonzaayer's in Kalamazoo) just a block from my office.

Ancient above ground tombs near Jerusalem were "white washed" (e.g. cleaned up of all the grime that had caked on them during the previous year) before Passover- so the City "gleamed" when looked at from afar. Jesus used this common scene as one of his harshest and sobering criticism of hypocrisy- that we are not to be "whitewashed tombs" that look good on the outside, but actually filled in the inside (our hearts) with moral rott like decaying dead man's bones. Ouch. Matthew 23: 27-28.

I do not believe the Bible says whatever the reader wants it to say- unless it is twisted and contorted, taken out of context, or obviously read in a way the Author does not obviously mean it to say.

Psalm 19:8b: "The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes." As James MacDonald puts it, the intent of the word "pure" is the same as using the word "clear"- God's Word is not cloudy or uncertain, it is "transparently obvious." It is not a puzzle to be solved, it can be understood, it "yields its message to the normal, attentive person." So one on his/her own can pick up a Bible, read it, and understand it.
Danny Kazam
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of Danny Kazam
I wish the Café had a "Like" Button. Smile
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Mike Maturen
View Profile
Inner circle
Michigan's Beautiful Sunrise Side
2726 Posts

Profile of Mike Maturen
My deepest apologies. It has been pointed out to me via PM that I failed to cite my source for the article I posted regarding relics in the Catholic Church. So, to make amends, here it is:


http://catholicdefense.blogspot.ca/2011/......ics.html

Now...that does not CHANGE the fact that the Bible supports the idea of relics and their use as an instrument for God's miraculous power.

No, Danny, you didn't directly mention the Catholic Church in your post, but based on our past history in discussing various churches, I knew what you meant.

Let's take the Catholic Church out of it for the sake of discussion. You are a "Scripture Alone" kinda guy, as I recall. Based on the article I cut and pasted (there...I said it), the Bible supports the phenomenon of God's use of relics, inanimate objects, shadows, etc as a channel of God's power. You simply CANNOT argue that point (unless, of course, you want to admit that the Scripture is wrong...).

So based on that, how do you support you criticism in your first posting (cut and pasted <shudder> below)?:

"While some church's may not condone magic, there are some churches that are highly superstitious and harbour religious relics claiming they have some kind of power. Most of those relics are fake, others are just morbid. " ---Danny Kazam

This, it seems to me, is likening the practice of churches that venerate relics to morbidity and superstition. Will you say that also of the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, not to mention the ancient Jews?

What say you, Brother?
Mike Maturen
World of Wonder Entertainment
The Magic and Mayhem of Mike Maturen
989-335-1661
mikematuren@gmail.com

AUTHOR OF "A NEW DAWN--Weekly Wisdom From Everyday Life"

member: International Magician's Society
Danny Kazam
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of Danny Kazam
I say... peace be with you. I was kind enough to Pm you about not posting a link to the source of your post, and I will be kind enough to allow you bring up our past encounters without debate, but I will also tell you for the last time that I still wish to refrain from having this fruitless debate with you. It does nothing to edify our Lord, but appears to just continue to feed the contentment in your heart. This thread isn't about our differences, nor should it be used as such. Say what you will, but I see no good in continuing this.

I wish you no ill feelings, and will continue to show you the same respect I have always.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Mike Maturen
View Profile
Inner circle
Michigan's Beautiful Sunrise Side
2726 Posts

Profile of Mike Maturen
I agree Danny. We should stop this nonsense.

..

My FCM membership will not be renewed when it expires.
Mike Maturen
World of Wonder Entertainment
The Magic and Mayhem of Mike Maturen
989-335-1661
mikematuren@gmail.com

AUTHOR OF "A NEW DAWN--Weekly Wisdom From Everyday Life"

member: International Magician's Society
MagicBus
View Profile
Inner circle
Kalamazoo, Michigan
2875 Posts

Profile of MagicBus
If I was a Board member of the FCM (which I am not), I guess would say on their behalf that the above discussion has nothing to do with the FCM. Yikes, please don't resign an entire organization based on non-official postings on The Magic Café'- unless you just don't like the FCM- then I understand that.

Another longwinded sidebar: I know a few magicians who are IBMers (or SAMers which I also am a member of) who really have ticked off some fellow magicians, but they in turn did not leave the IBM.

One of my personal pet problems for years (as just one example) is I know some excellent magicians who always seem to brag how much they enjoyed FFFF, what great magic they saw there, or how wonderful all the performers were there having a hooting good time... OR to read the huge color articles in The Linking Ring about the FFFF (which I assume is not a non-profit organization)... BUT THEN I am treated like I have the flu when I point out FFFF is by invitation only and is NOT open to the magic public including to all IBM members.

I find the extensive magazine coverage of FFFF is like reading about what the "haves" enjoy in a purposely limited country club setting that us normal, uninvited magic hobbyists will never have the honor to attend (or even watch). So as long as we keep buying the products that are produced by these very same folks/lecturers, we are golden.

The above being said, I can't imagine lawyers or teachers or pretty much any other profession holding openly covered conferences but then limiting attendance only to elite lawyers that the organizers invite in. Attorneys would never stand for that. My view is FFFF is fine if it stays to itself (we are a free country after all), but it's just as a matter of principle to me that I don't want to read about FFFF comings and going in "my" IBM Linking Ring magazine. Let them get their own magazine and charge their own private dues for that. But will I quit the IBM over this petty gripe?- nope- too many friends in the IBM- including in Ring 211 (which has a FISM Grand Prix winner as a Ring member who obviously also performs at FFFF). I should be there right now at the Carl Andrews restaurant magic lecture tonight but I elected to save the gas and work at the office (and read The Magic Café').

So anyway, the point of all this dribble is I hope no one ever resigns from the FCM based on what is posted here on The Magic Café', particularly since the FCM has nothing really to do with what is said here.

From a grumpy old crust... who hates to see anyone here discouraged or upset. You are all my magical friends for sure, even if you are lucky enough to be invited to the FFFF confabs. Smile
MagicBus
View Profile
Inner circle
Kalamazoo, Michigan
2875 Posts

Profile of MagicBus
On another sidebar, I was amazed to read today in "Christianity Today" (June, 2013 issue) on pages 20-25 an economics professor's report that child sponsorship (such as through Compassion International) really is effective to "get under the hood of human beings to instill aspirations, character formation, and spiritual direction. In short, it trains people to be givers instead of receivers." Also a good ad in this Christianity Today for http://www.ResurgenceConference.com with Greg Laurie, Crawford Loritts, James MacDonald and others.

The Christian community is made up of so many great organizations (like those mentioned above- just two of a zillion more)- the FCM is just part of this incredible ministry mosaic.
Vlad_77
View Profile
Inner circle
The Netherlands
5829 Posts

Profile of Vlad_77
Quote:
On 2013-05-30 14:50, Danny Kazam wrote:
Oh boy. Smile

I will show my respect by not engaging in this ridiculous and inappropriate argument. I stand by my comments, and do not wish to drag the Catholic Church through the mud to prove that my previous statement is factual and valid. History speaks for itself, and many relics have been proven to be fake, not just in the Catholic Church, but in many other churches as well.

Not sure if Vlad deleted his post or someone else did, but it was a wise move.


Wise move Danny?

If wise move carries some subtext, then by all means talk to me in PM. As brothers in Christ Danny, we should not be going down this road. So, I will merely ask you one question here and now. For centuries Catholics have been accused by SOME other churches of the following falsehoods:

Worshiping Mary
Worshipping the saints
Worshipping relics
Worshipping statues

Given that, can you at least understand how Mike, a Catholic, COULD see your post as a possible attack? I am asking you this Christian to Christian with no hostility whatsoever.

+In Christ,
Vlad

PS: In reading Mike's post, he states clearly that he wasn't certain if it was an attack but it could be construed as one.
Mike Maturen
View Profile
Inner circle
Michigan's Beautiful Sunrise Side
2726 Posts

Profile of Mike Maturen
Thank you, Vlad.

As to MagicBus:

My remark about leaving the FCM has little or nothing to do with the disagreement at hand. However, the discussion DID bring back several other incidents where I was attacked, sometimes directly, for being Catholic...BY FCM MEMBERS.

If the prevailing attitude of many in the FCM is that we Catholics are somehow on a lower shelf in the Christian closet, or perhaps not even Christian at all as at least one has suggested (never mind the Catholic--not necessarily Roman--Church WAS, indeed, the first Christian Church), then I don't want my money supporting them.

I understand theological disagreements...heck I get into them all the time...but they should be handled with grace and class. You, for instance, have carried on a discussion with me privately. It was handled as true brothers in Christ. While we do not necessarily agree, we can discuss it as friends and colleagues...without attack.

I just simply tire of the attacks. A few on here have been pretty vocal about their anti-Catholic beliefs...but at least one has had no problem taking gigs from Catholic organizations. Hypocrisy at its best.

There is an organization out there that is--unfortunately--not very well known or publicized. It was founded by magical great Angelo Stagnero. It is called the Catholic Magicians Guild. I have been a member for quite some time. Perhaps my time would be better spent there.

ON A SIDEBAR, MAGICBUS: Did you guys get hit hard yesterday? National Weather Service a pretty butt-ugly storm that seemed to be camping right over top of K-Zoo. Hope all remained safe.
Mike Maturen
World of Wonder Entertainment
The Magic and Mayhem of Mike Maturen
989-335-1661
mikematuren@gmail.com

AUTHOR OF "A NEW DAWN--Weekly Wisdom From Everyday Life"

member: International Magician's Society
Danny Kazam
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of Danny Kazam
I respectfully took the time to address that concern with this post I made. I take no responsibility in how someone wishes to interpretate my comments. Nor can I help it if someone choses to make several assumptions because they feel like a victim. Also, it went from Mike making the assumption I was just talking about the Catholic Church to arguing about veneration of relics. Something I never disagreed with.

If anyone should feel like a victim, it should be me. I am the one who is being attacked for stating something that was fact. However, I refuse to play the victim. I am not that sensitive to allow myself be dragged into something as pointless as this. Read my post below. This should of ended the matter, but it didn't. That's not my fault.

Vlad, I appreciate your input, but you I see no point in answering anymore questions about this. I am Fasinated though by your's and Mike's obsession of always trying to be the victims.

Quote:
On 2013-05-30 12:37, Danny Kazam wrote:
Gosh, golly gee. I won't get into detail, but it was not a direct attack on the Catholic Chuch. The Catholic Church is not the only church that is in possesion of relics that supposively contain some type of supernatural powers.

It is also very correct to say that many of them are fake. For example, the bones of Mary Madeline. There are so many bones out there claiming to be her bones that the amount of bones out there make up 5 skeletons.

Some protestant Churches claim to have for example, and even sell viles of water they claim can heal diseases.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Mike Maturen
View Profile
Inner circle
Michigan's Beautiful Sunrise Side
2726 Posts

Profile of Mike Maturen
For not allowing yourself to be dragged into it, you sure do post a lot! Smile

All in good fun, my friend! My tongue is FIRMLY planted in my cheek on this one!

...and I do not feel like a victim. It is apparent from several posts on here that your initial post COULD HAVE been, indeed, interpreted the way I did.

Quote:
On 2013-05-31 10:10, Danny Kazam wrote:


I am not that sensitive to allow myself be dragged into something as pointless as this.

Quote:
On 2013-05-30 12:37, Danny Kazam wrote:
Gosh, golly gee. I won't get into detail, but it was not a direct attack on the Catholic Chuch. The Catholic Church is not the only church that is in possesion of relics that supposively contain some type of supernatural powers.

It is also very correct to say that many of them are fake. For example, the bones of Mary Madeline. There are so many bones out there claiming to be her bones that the amount of bones out there make up 5 skeletons.

Some protestant Churches claim to have for example, and even sell viles of water they claim can heal diseases.

Mike Maturen
World of Wonder Entertainment
The Magic and Mayhem of Mike Maturen
989-335-1661
mikematuren@gmail.com

AUTHOR OF "A NEW DAWN--Weekly Wisdom From Everyday Life"

member: International Magician's Society
Ed_Millis
View Profile
Inner circle
Yuma, AZ
2286 Posts

Profile of Ed_Millis
Mike, Danny, Vlad -- can we please stop derailing decent threads with doctrinal/historical debates? Whilst y'all are having a hash-out, we have two Dougs and a Payne who are getting that much more evidence for why they don't want anything to do with this. Does it really matter who started it or what was really said? Can someone please be Christain enough to stop and walk away from this thread, and if the discussion must continue to do it elsewhere so the OP can get back to his question?

Daffy, in my experience - and I'm talking my own superstitions here - most Christians are vaguely aware that the devil does have some power. Like the Gadarene demoniac who snapped chains or the demon-possessed boy who was thrown into fire and water. Unfortunately, most Christians also rarely think and study through exactly what demonic manifestations look like.

All this wraps into a big ball of unknown and - to them - unknowable. And to the superstitious, the unknown is to be feared. Like ancient seamen's maps with reasonably accurate coastlines, but huge areas labelled "here be demon" and "here be beast"! No - here be ignorance and fear.

So they hear "magic", which is always (*cough* *cough*) "of the devil", they see someone do something they don't understand, and they don't know really what is devil and what is not. So they default with their fears of the unknown and scream "not of God!"

Pastors and church elders, who see themselves in the position of protecting the flock, are often prone to knee-jerk reactions. Well, they're just people, after all. Fathers (like me) have done the same things when their kids want to do things Dad doesn't understand: the immediate reaction is "I say no to protect you". And there's also the pride of not wanting to admit you are ignorant.

This is why I suggested a private session with the pastor. It gets him away from a "protect the flock" response situation, and lets him get to know and trust you on a personal level. If you bring one of those dollar store packages of tricks and let him see the plastic props with instructions, and then show him how you worked up the skill set to create an entertaining routine with physical manipulations and cleverly constructed bits of plastic, you are educating him that it's nothing more - and nothing less - that the same level of skill he sees in a good musician, painter, dancer, or singer. He can react in private where no one else sees, and he can emerge empowered with new knowledge. (I'm assuming a worst-case scenario here of a proud, ignorant, and superstitious pastor. Honestly, echoing the opinions of most other posters on this thread, I think such a person is rare.)

If he does balk, ask him some questions - not to back him into a corner, but to think. What exactly is he afraid of? That something he doesn't fully understand might be the devil? Does he understand everything about his computer or cell phone? Does he understand everything about how airplanes fly or the water he drinks is purified?

Is he put off by the dark and mysterious personna of many prominent performers? You don't do that. And there's actually more magicians who perform birthday parties as totally non-frightening characters than there are the dark and mysterious guys.

Is he afraid that your magic performances might "open minds and doors" into the occult? If that were true, then the world would be overrun with the occult, given the sheer number of library books, dollar store trick packs, and web sites and videos exposing people to "magic".

Is he just put off by the connotations and perceptions of the label "magic"? Offer some different words - but in the end it's the word that the public uses. "Drug" can be life-saving insulin or heroin.

Above all, I would encourage you not to subject yourself to the brow-beatings of ignorant people. It's back to Matt 18:15-17 - if you are offended, work it out. Personally, I would be greatly offended at the fearful ignorance that some people would use to rob me of great fun. If a spiritual man can open my eyes to a spiritual truth that enlightens me and makes me desire to choose God above magic, then I am richer. But if a proud, fearful, arrogant man refuses to listen to me because he's got a title and I don't, then I do not belong in an unequal yoke like that.

Finally, bathe this thing in honest prayer. Don't cling to your magic - cling to Jesus. Remember that the Kingdom of God is about relationships, with Him and with those He's put us with. And we are to esteem others higher than ourselves. Yes, that needs to apply to them too! But I know that my magic has at times gotten in between me and Him and me and other relationships, and I had to walk away for a while - perhaps for good. But if it meant that I had more of Jesus, then I was willing to throw it all away. And that came from within me - it was not imposed upon me.

Hope this helps. I'll be praying for you.
Ed
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Going Against The Grain Of Churches. (How to avoid) (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.4 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL