The more I read this thread the more I am concerned with the churches and people you are hanging with.

they all seem to lack common sense.

first off if you tell you pastor your a magician and want to show him a trick and he some how believes you have satanic power (which by the way is impossible to have) then I would run RUN real fast and get out of that church. you need to get into a solid bible believing church that deals with reality.

I am sorry if I am coming off a bit harsh but seriously I am wigg'n out here from your stories.

in 25 years over 10,000 shows I have never heard such craziness! yes I know it exist and there are people out there that wonder how its done and are closed minded but some how you have met them all!! yes I have had one or two in my time question if I have supernatural powers.

thousands of churches use puppets and clowning and magic tricks as part of their regular routine in there kids ministries.

I will be presenting my full magic and illusion show this Sunday MORNING for a church in souderton Pa. that's right sunday morning service and they are having me perform in lieu of their regular service. and I am performing several Psychic effects too!! but I am always clear what I do is a trick what God does is for real!

again all I can say is that I am concerned with the people you are hanging with!!


I would also like to back up and restate some thing I said in my original post -- you need to get on your hands and knees and seek God and find out what He wants you doing. then trust Him to lead you to the right people to help and support you.

with out the Holy Spirits leading you will never find the right path.

praying for you - praying for wisdom and praying that the Lord will speak to you and praying to the Holy Spirit that He will guide your every step.

sam

Mike, when you said "brand" that truly made my mind spin trying to figure out what it meant. It's still spinning!

Sam, 

You said " first off if you tell you pastor your a magician and want to show him a trick and he some how believes you have satanic power (which by the way is impossible to have) then I would run RUN real fast and get out of that church. you need to get into a solid bible believing church that deals with reality."

Sam, that is exactly and precisely what I did! I got out of that church lickety split! Mind you I had served in that particular church for years. (In the music and drama ministries and more) Then when I found the courage to mention that I performed magic and I had a desire to use it as a ministry in the church the pastor wigged out. He demonstrated total intransigence in his view that magic (as I define it) was related to the devil and witch doctors, etc. I tried to reframe it as illusions, but he was simply not buying it. Any ministry in the church had to go past him, and he was not about to. have it in his church. Period. We're talking total close mindedness, here. We're talking a hermetically sealed mind.

It so disgusted me and so frustrated me that I absquatulated from that church. Yup. I slapped it in "B" for boogie, and I never looked back.

But this incident, this demonstration of close minded ignorance gone to seed turned me off from all churches. (Because it was the crowning event of years of experiencing similar attitudes in Christians everywhere I went. To put it simply, I was FED UP. 

Not to say I DIDN'T pray and seek the Lord on this numerous times since that day. Through all my prayer, I concluded that God didn't want me to be part of any organised religious organization. 

And that's the way it has been for the past several years.

Until a few weeks ago when (I believe) that God directly lead me to this church where I am now attending.

So I was obedient to the call.

Now, I have yet to see how they react when they find out who I am and what I do. 

I'm almost gun shy to mention it. I'm going to let God bring it out in His timing.

Precisely! I also concluded that. My last membership was in Bangor, and it was a small, non-denominal congregation. I participated enthusiastically, but the day I showed a magic trick (Coins Across), I became unwelcome. The pastor became a TOTAL ass! I was rattled by that for months! All these people "pretending" to be my friend...BAM! Got the evil eye from them after that.

I don't hang out with people. I'm alone 95% of the time. I like it that way. It's me and my Bible. That's all I need...

Doug

This mentality of "evil magic" is troublesome, and though I have not experienced this first hand, I have met some that frown upon card tricks because a deck of cards is considered "The appearance of evil." I can only sigh and respect their doctrine. I am reminded 1 Cor. 8 when Paul talks about eating meat sacrificed to idols. Even if their doctrine is of, we must remember "But if any man love God, the same is known of him."

Also, for those opposed to organized religion, I would simply offer the challenge of Hebrews 10:25 in "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

We aren't supposed to live for Christ alone. We need each other. We need fellowship.

Wow! Doug, Doug here can sure relate!

So praise God, I'm not alone in this rejection syndrome!

 I remember the time I was attending a (here un-named) church, and they had a "family night" 

They said anyone was welcome to get up in front of the church and do whatever they felt like (sing, a skit, poem, or whatever your talent was.)

So I figured this was my time to show them something wholesome to give the art of magic a good name..

I didn't want ANYTHING that could be construed as " Evil" or "Occult" 

No burning black candles and such.  


(Just kiddin' on that part!)

Basically I wanted something that would bring smiles and laughter and be good, wholesome family entertainment.
So I settled on my sponge ball routine. I loaded my pockets with the little round, red rascals and got up my nerve and stepped up in front of the church.

I was probably a minute into the routine, and the first sponge traveled from my hand to a spectator's closed fist, and WHAM!!
The pastor's eyes got real big, (I think his face turned as red as the sponges) and his countenance  took on this indescribable look of, well, I can't describe it. Perhaps it was suppressed anger? Anger mixed with abject fear and even horror?
Whatever emotion was playing across his face,  it was definitely  not pretty. He appeared as a man touched with a cattle prod!

The MOMENT I saw that look, I thought "Oh no! Not again!"

He abruptly ejaculated a gruff, impatient, rude "That's enough!!"

And made me sit down way before my routine was even started!

Geeeeeeeeshhh! It was just a bloomin' nerf ball! And he was scared????

Christians in the early days of Christianity were not even afraid of hungry lions, yet in  this century a simple red  sponge ball strikes fear into the heart.?? What's wrong with this picture?

Such ignorance my spirit could not bear!

That may have been the turning point for me.
 
 

I think there may have been one other church after that (The one where I actually dared to ask the pastor first and was excoriated for my boldness,  but beyond that, I have been turned off from churches for years.

This current church where I'm attending is definitely my last hope. If they codemn me, I'm unequivocaly FINISHED with the church scene for life. I'll just give up in disgust and leave them to stew in their ignorance. I'll wash my hands of them.

Daffy Doug and Regular Doug:

I would also exhort you to not give up on organized religion just because of some ignorant jerks spewing the hatred they claim they DON'T have.

I would exhort you with the force of Scripture: Hebrews 10:25 "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

NIV: "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching."

These are not simply suggestions...they are exhortations from the Apostle to the Gentiles. We ARE TO ATTEND CHURCH. Period.

Yes, dealing with humans can be a pain in the butt. We are sinful, we are flawed...but we are still God's chosen.

Find a church that has been around since the time of the Apostles...one whose teaching doesn't change with the winds of fads and fancies. There, you may find a home.

Be blessed, and above all, DO NOT GIVE UP HOPE!

What I've yet to determine: Is it hatred? Or fear? Or ignorance? Or even an unholy trinity consisting of all three? 

I whole heartedly agree with Mike. The scripture is clear that we are to assemble in fellowship and worship as the corporate body and bride of Christ. Wonky churches are everywhere! I personally have a list of 25 questions that I email to area pastors when looking for a new church home. If I get no reply at all, I mark them off my list. If I get answers that show our essential doctrinal beliefs are not compatible, I mark them off. Pastors who genuinely love and care will appreciate your commitment to find a solid church with solid teaching. Those who respond positively, I arrange to meet and buy lunch or coffee and talk further. ONLY THEN do I decide to visit or attend a service.
I learned my lesson over several bad experiences where I had already formed deep friendships by the time I discovered issues with doctrine and theology I could not align with. Make up your own list of "essentials" and try it. You will find a good home! And BEGIN with prayer and ask God to use your effort to find the right place.
BLESSINGS!

There are many churches that have a wonderful view of Gospel magic- I know because I was with John deVries way back in the 70ties- and most of his programs were in churches. Ditto currently for MagicBob and SuZie in the Midwest. I myself am a member of a wonderful Wesleyan Church in Kalamazoo, they even put in their church newsletter our regular FCM meetings, or any time and location we have a Gospel magic outreach event planned (the next one being the second Saturday in September), etc.. So I personally have been blessed in never being asked by a church host to not do any Gospel "magic."

Man, that sounds like a wondetful position to be in. Must be sweet.

Seems to me Doug, since you have had such consistent trouble in this area, that you might want to re-consider the TYPES of churches you are looking at...if you really examine it, you might find that--although they might be different denomination--they probably all have the same theological philosophy: Heavy on the emotion, light on solid biblical teaching.

Actually, the church where I'm at currently is heavy on both. (Emotion AND solid Biblical teaching and preaching) . But as I said, the litmus test will be when they discover my magical propensities.

For me, that is where the ol' rubber meets the road.

If, as you say, they are solid on biblical teaching, then they should have absolutely NO problem with you performing magic. They would recognize that it is simply an entertainment form.

If they freak out, then they simply are ignorant of what the Bible is speaking of when using the word "magic". Two TOTALLY different subjects.

Often it's a case of how we phrase what we do

I offer to do the children's bit (before they leave to go to Sunday School - if there is one that day) and the Sermon time. That way the Minister can still have a regular service AND provide a reflection on what I've done (but none have needed to the latter.)

I always meet with the Minister before hand to make sure I'm clear on what I can do and where I'm doing it. Often this is governed more by the age of the congregation and the particular they want me to link to. So far this year - Creation, Noah, Samson, Easter, Pentecoste, Jesus is the Way (theme of FCM 2012),parable of the Lost Sheep, Celebration and Trust.

So I'm not providinga full magic show INSTEAD of their regular Service - I'm slotting into their set-up.

If they want a full magic show then I'll do this on another day.

Mike, now that we're on the subject, and you said "If they freak out, then they simply are ignorant of what the Bible is speaking of when using the word "magic". Two TOTALLY different subjects."

...I can't find the word "MAGIC" in my Bible, (KJV). I used an electronic concordance, and I didn't find it once. And "magician" as a word is only mentioned maybe a couple times at best, no?

Hmmmmm. Maybe I'm onto something here.

They will link what you do to all sorts of misinterpretations of Scripture. I will do a little research when I get home tonight...AFTER I rehearse for tomorrow night's show at St. Anne Catholic Church!

While some church's may not condone magic, there are some churches that are highly superstitious and harbour religious relics claiming they have some kind of power. Most of those relics are fake, others are just morbid.

My point is real simple. Those who oppose magic because they believe it's demonic just need a loving brother or sister in the Lord to ease their concerns. Some Christians don't condone magic because they believe it's deceitful, and they are right. It is deceitful. They also have a right to refuse anything they deem to not be wholesome and pure, even if we choose to be ignorant towards them for it.

No where in the bible does it say magic is okay, nor does it even directly address entertaining the church. We have to use our discretion, and not be the reason why our brother's and sister's fall, lest we be willing to carry their blood on our hands.

I think one of the most embarrassing situations was in 1978, at West Peru (Maine) Baptist Church. I was invited to do a Magic Show for the kids downstairs, while the parents were upstairs attending an evening service. There were about thirty kids. They had such a good time, and were making so much noise, the Pastor came down after the service, smiling, and was very pleased.

He asked me if I'd come upstairs and do a litte for the adults. I had my Zombie with me. BIG mistake! I was 23 at the time. I really never thought anything of it. Boy...did I get chastised! I had floated the ball for just a few minutes, and I heard a lady whispering loudly, "He's OF THE DEVIL!" Then she panicked. She started speaking in tongues, and acting retarded. Then she came at me. "Begone, SATAN!" Then the pastor pulled me aside.

I was RATTLED! I got "the lecture" from him. Total BS! Absolute CULT-like behavior! I was so disgusted, I quit church, abandoned my faith, and gave up magic for a while. I was LIVID! All this religion, and NO love! Just judgement, hassle and embarrassment.

Today, I cannot be involved in any Christian church. I'm on the Medical Marijuana program for my glaucoma. I started too late, I'm blind in my right eye now. I have two doctors who tell me this works. Churches condemn me for it. Even though there is NOTHING in The Bible that directly addresses it. Just hypocrites who drink, slamming me for doing something that used to be illegal. I am 100% legal now. Still, I get, "Oh God help us, he's ON THE POT!"

Half my family won't speak to me. They're staunch Catholics. "Oh, he's ON THE POT...he's lost forever!" What a bunch of crap. Yeah. It would be nice to find a congregation that will accept the things I do. I don't drink at all. I'm single/never married. I have to do five drops (under the tongue) of Cannabis Tincture every three hours. Every day. Without fail. It is not psychoactive. Doesn't get me stoned. Lowers my ocular pressure phenomenally, though. I do smoke on occasion though.

That said, I have a lot going against me. However, as far as I'm concerned, I'm done with churches. I think God approves. I've prayed about this constantly. To each his own. If church works for you, God Bless ya! It does NOT work for me. Most social situations don't work for me any more. It's amazing I still do magic for people at all...

The Other Doug That's Daffy.

I have in my basement the paperback book by popular author Philip Yancey entitled: "Church: Why Bother? My Personal Pilgrimage" It is available still in ebook form for $6.44 from http://www.cbd.com Addresses some of these similar problems while author Yancey struggled to find a church.

My wife Maggie and I searched around for a church for almost two years- before we found the one that we felt was Biblically based and offered both of us lots of opportunities for meaningful service. The church we are in turned out to be so much more- I now meet every Saturday morning for breakfast in an informal men's group from Lighthouse- just a wonderful weekly personal encouragement to me. I wouldn't trade these new friends for the world. We are involved in all kinds of stuff now including being in outreach events that use my "talent" from time to time. So good churches can be found for sure- although I will admit we did have to go to at least 5 before we found the right "fit." All of them were fine, but we wanted a church we could both grow in and be a meaningful part of.

As I said above, I really love the church we are members of (Lighthouse Community Church in Kalamazoo http://www.DiscoverLighthouseChurch.com)- and I love our pastor Mark Swank (he has been of several of our Gospel magic shows posted at http://www.ChristianMagician.org- he even did some simple tricks like the "coloring book.").

Personally, and again, this is just my own personal tastes for when I am not in church, I really enjoy right now the preaching ministry of James MacDonald in Chicago (he used to be the youth pastor at my brother's church)- http://www.JamesMacDonald.com Very down to earth- I am currently listening to his "Authentic" series on 6 CDs- which covers the basic disciplines of the Christian life: Bible reading, prayer, not being a hypocrite, service, etc.. This is also out in paperback published in 2013 and is entitled "Authentic" (has a pair of blue jeans on the cover) and is available through most Christian books stores. His church, Harvest Bible Chapel, is on a bunch of campuses with thousands of attenders- which is very different from Lighthouse which is on just one "campus" and meets in a very functional, non-church like building (our main auditorium is also a gym). See the website for Harvest Bible Chapel, I have been encouraging my adult children to check it out as they both live downtown Chicago and Harvest recently opened its downtown "Chicago Cathedral."

So hang in there Doug, don't give up the search (and I sincerely mean that), there IS a church for you out there, whether it be very small or a mega church, with a pastor and congregation that can minister to your needs. Don't settle for opting out because of bad experiences in the past that do in fact take much time to finally get over (sometimes years). Been there myself, I thought 5 years ago I was a wandering non-church goer who'd never find a "church home" again where the pastor even knew who I was.

Psalm 67 to you magical brother, I hope I can meet you someday!