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DarryltheWizard Loyal user 238 Posts |
I have seen ministers use magic to illustrate a concept and some magicians use magic to teach a message about drugs or safety. What should you stress the magic or the message.
I have seen some performers put too much emphasis on the magic and the message is buried in a sea of colourful props and lively participation magic, and other performers put more stress on the message, and I've actually heard kids say, " I wish he'd just shut up and do some magic!" Can one do both magic and a message or should you be either a lecturer or a magician? How do you feel? Darryl the Wizard
DarryltheWizard
"Life without mystery is like a candle with a snuffed out flame." Albert Einstein |
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Garrett Nelson Special user 644 Posts |
Hmmm...good question.
Although I am far from well versed on "message magic," I will give post my opinion on the subject. I think this idea brings patter development to a new level. It must be a step better. Let me explain. Too often people do a standard effect (lets say Strat Balls) and try to come up with a message oriented patter to accompany it. It seems like they focus on doing the standard routine and look for patter that might fit. That means they are trying to fit patter into something where it may not fit right. Let me give a real world example of this that doesn’t relate to magic. As a collegiate athlete I was required to go to different elementary schools and lecture about different things. We would all know about what we were going to say going in. Generally we would talk about how we managed school and athletics, how important it was to do well in school, and why you should stay away from drugs. Once as we were about to be handed the mic (in front of an entire school) the principal of the school said, “Each one of you talk about how one of the pillars help you in athletics and why they are important to become an athlete,” as she pointed to a huge poster behind us. The poster had 6 “pillars” of their school (things like kindness, fairness, etc.). As soon as she was done making her request, she turned around, announced us, and we were on. We had no idea what to say at all, and no time to prepare. We all gave a generic speech, much like the one we would normally give, but inserted a “pillar” into it from time to time. I don’t think the overall message we delivered changed one bit, we just stuck some things in where we could to humor the principal. I think that is what a lot of people do with their message. They just sort of throw it in there and hope it will get the message across. I think if an effect is carefully constructed, and has engaging patter which delivers the message, it will do the job. I think there has to be a logical relation between the effect and the message rather than just throwing in some patter changes. Those are my feelings. |
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P T Flea Regular user Engelfield Green, nr Staines - innit 194 Posts |
IMHO:
I don't understand. Why mix magic and messages in the first place? I think that magic should be kept to magic i.e. performing the impossible; and that messages should be on flyers and read out in meetings, presentations etc. There are colourful, interesting ways to present messages to make them memorable without entangling them with magic. Cheers PT
Good judgement comes from bad experience, and a lot of that comes from
bad judgement. |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
First, let's define "magic and messages".
If what is meant is magic with a story line, then we are talking about, among other things, bizarre magic. If what is meant is trying to sway the audience to a particular point of view, well, that's something else again. And I doubt that magic is the best thing to use to do that. One loses the impact of the message and the impact of the magic. We are in the business of entertaining, not prosyletizing. To put it another way, movie mogul Sam Goldwyn wanted his films to entertain, not to sermonize. "If you want to send a message," he said, "then call Western Union." However, that does not mean that the magic can't have a story! There's a difference between a story and a sermon. In fact, a story is almost essential to magic; otherwise you are simply a sort of juggler, showing off an acquired manual skill. Nothing wrong with that -- but it ain't magic! cheers, Peter Marucci showtimecol@aol.com |
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Mike Robbins Elite user Anchorage, Alaska 447 Posts |
I do Drug/Alcohol awareness shows at local schools. I think magic is a wonderful medium for getting the information out. To me, the message is more important than the magic, but without the appropriate magic in the appropriate measure, the kids will lose interest.
I put together my show from scratch after reading Ron Conley's "Drugs, Strangers, and other Dangers". That's the key. As GarrettDN pointed out, many magicians do the same old routine and just try to add new words to it. I've seen it and it's so transparent that I believe it damages both the message and the magic. I firmly believe that magic and message can be successfully mixed and with wonderful results. Problem is, it ain't easy. If it was, everyone would be doing it and doing it well. The scripting is critical and should be evaluated not as "patter", but as a real script and matched to the objective you are trying to achieve. What is the proper mix of the two? I think it depends on the subject and on the audience. With schoolkids, I use a bit more magic and integrate the message with the routines. This way they learn in spite of themselves. In a corporate setting where the participants are interested in the subject, I'd use minimal magic and only then as a point of emphasis. If you think magic and message don't mix, then watch a good Drug/Alcohol Awareness performer put on the show in a school where drug awareness has often meant lectures and statistics. I think you'll see what I mean then. Mike
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
Shakespeare |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Hmmm..
Well, if there is no message (nothing comunicated besides the trick) no reason, no importance, no essence, then aren't you just a tricky, juggling diversionist. You are certainly falling short of "art" if you just go out there with no meaning or message to communicate. But then not everyone is striving for art. Nor do they have to be. |
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P T Flea Regular user Engelfield Green, nr Staines - innit 194 Posts |
No, I do think there should be some sort of a patter to go along with the magic, as I believe this creates half the effect in the spectator's eye. I am just not sure that this patter has to take the form a message about morals, the law, religion or whatever.
I think the most effective presentations on drugs and alcohol are in form of a lecture with some statistics and pictures, this really bring the message home to the older kids. I think the focus should be on issue at hand and their attention not divided between these serious issues and bit of light hearted magic. PT
Good judgement comes from bad experience, and a lot of that comes from
bad judgement. |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Ah, ha! There it is. "Light hearted magic." Magic doesn't have to be light hearted. To many believe it is nothing more. No wonder people find magic to be childish entertainment.
There are deeper meanings to be communicated than patter or stories. It is a depth that few realize is possible in magic. What really is the subtext of what YOU do? |
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Stephen Long Inner circle 1481 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-05-26 10:57, Tom Cutts wrote: I think that's because there are so few spectators out there who would be willing to buy into it. "This torn and restored card can be used as a metaphor for our own lives? How interesting, Mr. Magician. I shall go home and re-think the way I live." I don't think it's likely to happen. The vast, vast majority of the laity are just looking to be entertained. IMO. Stephen :coolspot:
Hello.
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Mr. Ed Veteran user California 337 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-05-26 01:07, Tom Cutts wrote: Perhaps I am, but that is exactly the purpose of my magic. I am not intending to leave my audience contemplating some deeper message. Just the opposite. I want my audience to forget reality and truely relax and leave the world behind for a few moments. If that makes me a tricky, juggling diversionist, so be it. That's the wonderfull thing about magic. It can be used in a number of differnt ways, to make people feel a number of differnt ways.
He who laughs, lasts.
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
The first thing that leaps to mind about creating a message with some depth (and I'm sure Tom Cutts thought of this, too) is Gene Burger's Gypsy Thread as a metaphor for the Hindu creation and destruction of the universe.
The spectator may not go home and rethink his/her life but -- as I say in my current lecture Bizarre Magic -- it touches them at a deeper emotional level than just doing tricks! cheers, Peter Marucci showtimecol@aol.com |
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p.b.jones Inner circle Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K. 2642 Posts |
as I say in my current lecture Bizarre Magic -- it touches them at a deeper emotional level than just doing tricks!
Hi, Maybe it touches some people Peter. But there are also many who would find it a little heavy, arty and inwardly screaming get on with it. phillip |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
"But there are also many who would find it a little heavy, arty and inwardly screaming get on with it."
Then they have not seen such presentation done well. That is the real shame. |
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P T Flea Regular user Engelfield Green, nr Staines - innit 194 Posts |
Why presume that all people will find something a certain way just because it is being done properly?
I think that is a bit of a sweeping generalisation. PT
Good judgement comes from bad experience, and a lot of that comes from
bad judgement. |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Au Contrairre! The "if done properly" allows that the huge, overwhelming, gigantic majority of people can read as much or as little into "it" as they are inclined.
Assuming that meaning can only be expressed in a lecturing or directly dry manner is what I find generalizing. |
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Mike Robbins Elite user Anchorage, Alaska 447 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-05-26 04:07, P T Flea wrote: Ack! If you want to turn kids off, then lecture them. I've been to many schools who had such a program every year before I came. I've been told that not only do the kids enjoy my program more, but they remember it. Certainly, I don't pass on a load of statistics to them, but if they remember some of what I tell them and nothing of what a lecturer does, then I think they're ahead with my presentation. Mike
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
Shakespeare |
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Mike Robbins Elite user Anchorage, Alaska 447 Posts |
As far as whether or not there should be a message to the magic, I would say that depends. Personally, I like magic that has a deeper meaning. To me, art is about communicating about yourself and the world around you. Most magicians I see seem to be simply communicating that they're show offs.
Some people, however, like that kind of magic. I think that's great as well. Some of these same people would perhaps find magic with a story to be boring. Different strokes for different folks. Look at music. Not only do different people like different genres (rock, pop, rap, classical, country, etc), but some people prefer music that has a deeper meaning, while others want music to be just a good time. You can say the same for books, movies, poetry, etc. So I don't think an effect has to have a meaning beyond "Look at this." To me it would be like a movie with nothing but special effects and no story. But guess what? There have been movies like that that have had audiences. So whether or not you have a message, or story, with your magic depends on: 1. You 2. Your intended audience Mike
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
Shakespeare |
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p.b.jones Inner circle Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K. 2642 Posts |
Hi Tom,
just for an example Rene Lavand did several spots of the Paul Daniels show over here in the Uk and the one routine that everyone talked about (not magicians) was "I can't do it any slower" his oil and water routine. which was the ONLY routine that did not have a story. Similarly the two Copperfield routines most commonly raved about "the flying" and the "Buzz saw" have no real story. they have meaning though don't they? they still in my opinion have an Artistic presentation. there appeal is to other emotions than just comedy. Tom, I have never seen you perform and I am sure just from your passion for magic that you do a good performance. I personaly have Never yet seen a story magician that really did it for me. that's not to say that there are none out there or that people are not extremly succesful with it. phillip |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
I'll buy that. But meaning and purpose are not just the slaves of stories. I guess that is where things get muddled.
Lavand's performing is so poetic in its nature that it leaves itself open to so much interpretation. The cards just fall as they may, I know not why. It is an unraveling of the realities of life. It is what it is, a very human message. I can not be any more fair, yet the outcome is still.... That was my point about lectures and such. Meaning can be conveyed in many ways, words are just one such. In magic Britney Spears seems to tell Bono and Michael Stipes (REM) how to write songs and everyone thinks Dave Matthews will never be "comercially viable". Before I begin to sound like the grewat stoic preacher, let me just say; we do all learn at our own pace and time. Just please don't deny magic any of the benefits that other arts receive...like music for example. Thanks, Tom |
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p.b.jones Inner circle Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K. 2642 Posts |
Dave Matthews will never be "comercially viable".
Tom, Just a few short years back. I used to have to import my Dave Mathews, Phish, Rusted Root, Ben Harper,Primus (for the bass playing) and Blues Traveller albums. I notice that at least some Phish, Dave Mathews and Ben Harper have become available over here now. sorry to go so far off topic but I too am a music Lover. Phillip |
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