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Brannon New user Austin, TX 29 Posts |
I am sitting here, reading the introduction to "Mark Wilson's Complete Course in Magic" and I read the 4 rules to magic...
1) Never reveal the secret. 2) Never explain what you are going to do ahead of time. 3) Never repeat a trick for the same spectators. 4) Practice the trick before you present it. Wilson elaborates all of the rules more than I did, I just summarized because I am lazy. But this begged the question, do these rules HAVE to be followed? I feel like there are "loopholes" or exceptions to all of these rules, which no longer makes them rules, but more like guidelines... For example, rule one. One of the greatest duo acts of all time in my opinion, P & T, break this rule constantly. They do reveal the secret, but it is always followed by an even greater illusion/trick, which would be the exception to that rule. Rule two, I agree with, but their is also another, valuable side to explaining what you're going to do ahead of time. There are many assumptions/conclusions you can lead your spectators to believe by telling them what is going to happen in advance, but then surprise them with an even greater and more phenomenal effect than described by adding extra flare or finesse. The exception to rule number three would be repeating the same effect, only using a different method every time the trick is repeated. To the magician, the trick changes each time, regardless of the effect. But to the spectator, it would just seem like repetition (but then again this book was written in the perspective of a magician...) And for rule four the exception is... just kidding! I don't think there is one. Anyways those are just my thoughts, any extra perspective and insight is welcomed! Now I'm off to practice and read more at this ungodly time of morning, because I just moved in to this city and have nothing better to do. Night all! -Brannon |
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davidpaul$ Inner circle Georgetown, South Carolina 3086 Posts |
I have bug spray dripping down my computer screen and it didn't even phase that little bugger.
Rule #1.. I never reveal secrets other than for this one exception. Card Palming. I just mention that "card gamblers" use this technique to hide cards but when I do it I make them disappear and then the card ends up in the edge of my lips. Rule #2.. I do perform a few effects where I tell my spectators exactly what is going to happen. This usually involves an object to an impossible location. This heightens the anticipation as well as the impossibility and when it happens.... Rule #3.. Never the "exact" same way unless I use sleight of hand where the methodology is sure fire and there is NO WAY they can tell. Rule #4.. Do you really have to practice????
Guilt will betray you before technique betrays you!
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Brannon New user Austin, TX 29 Posts |
I saw that gif and I had to download it :'D
But I completely agree with your exceptions to these rules, which is why I don't get why they are considered rules... Rule 4 is just a complete and utter waste of time! |
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motown Inner circle Atlanta by way of Detroit 6127 Posts |
And that's exactly why there's so much bad magic out there.
"If you ever write anything about me after I'm gone, I will come back and haunt you."
– Karl Germain |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-06-28 19:49, motown wrote: Hey Motown! Write that in CAPITAL LETTERS! When I read such drivel as this guy has written, it makes me want to vomit. It's little wonder that many agents consider that magicians are on the bottom of the totem pole!!!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
I am more bothered by the thought that is guy (and many folks today) feel there is an exception and "Cheat" for everything. Where is our culture going if "following rules" and "doing the work" has no meaning? As a business consultant and landlord I constantly observe people who think "rules" and "laws" are for someone else -- and that their signed commitment is a convenience of no weight. Last year I kicked out a tenant because they used illegal fireworks on my property. Mean? No - they signed an agreement to never do anything illegal and even agreed to prosecute anyone known to violate any law.
The commitment is more important than the law! The point is that being a magician is not an obligation -- it is a choice. That choice requires a commitment to following traditional laws to insure the perpetuity of the art. If you want "cheats" -- find some other hobby. Additionally, the fact that other people may violate the rules in NO WAY gives permission for you to do the same. It is YOUR commitment. Do you have to make a commitment to these specific rules? No -- only if you wish to be respected as a magician. You must commit to something. Just don't try and convince others that your lack of integrity has any value. I would never hire a new employee who said he was a magician and then violated the rules he claimed to support. I would also fire any employee doing tricks on company time. Set your own rules if you must -- just realize that your demonstrated integrity has a price. The question is whether or not you desire to be a magician -- or just a guy playing some ego game. The ability to kindle magic within the mind and heart of another person is based in part on trust and respect. Destroy that and there is no magic -- just a bunch of tricks.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
@FUNSWAY>>>
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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frankvomit Elite user 485 Posts |
Also the point made about Penn and Teller is yes they'll explain how something is done but they do it in a way where it's still baffling to the audience so really they've explained everything and nothing at the end.
I have a coin routine I came up with I was actually just trying to explain how an effect should look to a spectator to my nieces and when I looked at they're faces they were completely baffled after my second transition so I was stille using the making it look like I'm puting the coin in my left hand and it's still in my right hand until it really looked impossible that the coin could still be in my right hand but lo and behold there it is I'm my right hand. I was blown away at the reaction I got from my nieces and it really was a spur of the moment thing and the routine completely came by accident. so the point I'm trying to make is sometimes you can get an even stronger reaction by making it look like you're explaining something but really you're explaining nothing. I get more perturbed when I see these how magic is done shows and the narator is portraying the magician as this con man that thinks he's fooling you and you shouldn't let them. (I don't think I need to mention names but one comes to mind) fact is I'm not a con man I flat out tell a spectator that I'm going to lie to them and I'm going to do it in an entertaining way. There is no con at all in that. and I really resent the fact that because of shows and people like that magicians are put at the bottom of the entertainment food chain. and it's really not fair when you consider the work involved in producing an effect and the bravery involved in performing it. It deserves to be treated with respect. |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Wondered how long it would take for someone to come to P&T's defense...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Brannon New user Austin, TX 29 Posts |
I'm not in any way justifying people on youtube that spoil and reveal everyone's trick in a heartbeat, nor am I looking for a way around the rules to "cheat." I'm saying in my opinion that these rule do not have to be followed to the tee, and that there is some circumstances in which it could be helpful or beneficial to go against them.
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Brannon New user Austin, TX 29 Posts |
Also I'm not saying that I just go out and tell others how a trick is done. I feel like some of you have misinterpreted what I am saying.
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Well that could be (that we have misinterpreted). Also, it could be that you lack the experience to understand the essential nature of those "rules".
Rationalization is a dangerous thing. We all use it- for good or ill. Almost anything can be rationalized- provided you keep it to yourself. But, when you ask others to "buy in" you take a risk. I don't buy in, I reject your hypothesis categorically. For me, those four "suggestions" are from magicians who forgot more than I will ever know. Those are nuggets from years of experience, and if you stick with magic, someday you will "rediscover" them, perhaps. Regarding exposure, why do they not reveal their own inventions? I have no problem with ANYONE revealing their own work, but what gives ANYONE the right to reveal the work of others, especially when for financial gain? "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." Burke... proceed...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Magic Pierre Loyal user 212 Posts |
Nope. The rules have to be followed to the tee.
There is, however, a certain ambiguity sometimes about exactly where the tee is. However, it is necessary to make an effort to adhere to the rules as closely as you can in every circumstance. If you finfd yourself in some weird circumstance, if you look hard enough, you will see how the rule applies. In any event, revealing how magic is done is always off the reservation. AND, it makes you no friends among the spectators. "Look, here's how I fooled you!". They always hear the word "Idiot!" whether you've said it or not. "Look, I've just done a trick I've barely practiced and no one seems to have seen how I did it!". Yeah. Actually probably EVERYONE saw how you did it, and you have just embarrassed yourself badly, although no one is going to tell you. Even if you haven't, you might have. You just got lucky this time. Not a prudent way to do magic. So the rules are general rules, and, I imagine, the more experience one has, the more one knows when and how the rules can be bent. But I think the only people here who are really at that level of knowledge are the people on this board who are performing magicians with a LOT of shows under their belt, and a lot of years in the fraternity. |
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frankvomit Elite user 485 Posts |
I think everyone here understands what you're trying to say but I think the point everyone is makingi understand why these rules are there and I choose to call them rules today cause I know when I first started magic I wanted to explain to my friends and work coliegues how everything was done until one day they had to stop me and then I realized even if a spectator is telling you that they want to know they really don't want to know. I know sometimes the rules can seem like they have loopholes but it's like like what magic pierre said sometimes there can be an ambiguity as to where the tee is you must follow but with more experience you start to see more and more where the line is clear cut and should not be crossed.
watch the really good guys like Lance Burton, or Eugene Berger, or jeff McBride and watch how these guys approach these situations when it comes to the rules they all have ways of making it appear like they're breaking all thge rules but when the trick is done they broke nothing. but these guys didn't get to that in they're first 6 months of practicing that was from years of developing a trick. |
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Brannon New user Austin, TX 29 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-06-30 21:44, frankvomit wrote: First off, I did not mean to disrespect anyone in the magic community, or magic in general and I thank you all for your feedback. It is very helpful to see these responses. What Frank wrote is what I'm trying to say! I'm not saying I want to reveal every effect to a spectator. I'm thinking more along the lines of when P & T saw a woman in half, reveal how it's done, then "accidentally" do it again but in a much more impressive manner. I did not mean that since I know how some things in magic are achieved that I'm going to run around to all my friends and explain magic's deepest darkest secrets (that is, of course, assuming I even know magic's deep dark secrets.) Nor am I saying I'm going to be bending these rules anytime soon. I was simply stating that in my opinion, the first 3 rules can be bent, but only if it in some way benefits the trick or effect. Thanks, Brannon |
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4ndrew New user 3 Posts |
It's important to remember that the rules aren't ends unto themselves. The rules are provided as means toward particular ends. (i.e. the creation of wonder in ones audience, the respect of ones peers, and to some degree the preservation of wonder for future audiences of the effect). Violation of the rules increases the likelihood that those goals won't be reached.
When choosing to violate a rule, the impact on those factors needs to be weighed against the benefit of breaking the rule. While there are situations when the method is actually more impressive than an effect (body loading, pickpocketing, flourishes), magicians bristle when a rule is broken because all too often this weighing has been done poorly. |
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DWRackley Inner circle Chattanooga, TN 1909 Posts |
Sounds like you’ve reached a milestone in your magical career. We make rules simple so that children will be able to follow along until they learn WHY the “rules” were codified in the first place. Yes, there are rules, but the rules represent guidelines. There is no cheating or “loopholes”. (I agree with Funsway here. THAT was the first thing that jumped out at me in the OP.)
When you understand WHY you never reveal the secret, then you’ll start to catch on how to create false leads. Mark Wilson himself was the first guy I ever saw revealing the hole in the side of the hollow egg, right before he cracked it open and a yolk dropped out. When you understand WHY you don’t tell them what to be watching for, you’ll have a great handle on getting them to watch for the wrong thing. That very book you’re holding (MWCCIM – pages 314-316) has the effect where you wrap the napkin around the glass while TELLING them you’re going to vanish a coin. When you understand WHY you don’t repeat a trick, then you can judge for yourself how to duplicate a climax by using a different METHOD. Simplest reason here is that when they see it the second time, they’re not seeing magic anymore; they’re watching for the trick. Thus two versions of The Double Jumping Rubber Band (pages 296-298). I don’t know you, Brannon, your age or how long you’ll been “into” magic, but by asking questions like this, you make me think you may be about ready to take your SECOND big step as a magician, and possibly the most dangerous one. Some people get to this point, and they go off on their own, doing weird things without thinking about them through two sets of eyes (yours AND the audience). They rarely become good magicians, and you really can’t teach them after that. Just remember that NOBODY (not even P&T) can get away with just “breaking the rules”. What they ARE doing is following the guidelines and principles The Rules were based on in the first place. This is what the Great Ones do. (...and if you don't get Rule #4...just go home!) Best of Luck on your Journey, Brannon
...what if I could read your mind?
Chattanooga's Premier Mentalist Donatelli and Company at ChattanoogaPerformers.com also on FaceBook |
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Wizard of Oz Inner circle Most people wish I didn't have 5150 Posts |
Well said.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
In fairness to Brannon some private communication has reveal that he is ready for DWR's "Second big step" and is capable of surviving the journey. His language and choice of words in the first post are a product of peer interaction -- sad, but not fatal.
methinks we must all remember that Internet snippets are a poor vehicle for exchanging useful information or making any judgment of what a person actually thinks. It is also folly to assume that readers have considered all of the previous posts leading up to yours. on the "flip side" -- perhaps it is best to write each post first in a word processor and read it over before posting, asking "how will this appear to a chance observer?" At least SpellCheck might eliminate more obvious errors and typos ;-) Keep posting Brannon -- we all might get it right.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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David Fillary Special user 662 Posts |
Could you guys speak more on these "steps" in a magician's journey as I'd quite like to know where I stand on this?
I think rule number two is the only rule that is acceptable to regularly break, since some routines have it so built in that the audience knows without patter. Coins across and ambitious card both have the same effect done multiple times so the audience expects it after the first surprise. Ortiz points out that this strengthens the effect as it destroys possible explanations along the way as long as the routine still somehow builds in impossibleness. I'll admit to breaking rule number 3 recently, when I performed a vanishing handkerchief effect 6 times to the same audience. It was the closest to busking I've ever done and it built my audience from 2 to about 30 as they kept telling others to watch this. Then I was able to start a show. I think I was safe in this case though, as the first couple of people looked the most astonished, but perhaps I should re-evaluate this tactic. I still don't understand why P&T revealed the cups and balls. The classic silk to egg makes sense as it strengthens the finale, but P&T just revealed the C&B after performing it and ended it at that. |
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