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Bill Hallahan
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Here's the way I believe that the vast majority of audience members will remember this routine.

One card is is dropped, and the number of cards stays at or above 6. More cards are dropped, and the number of cards stays at or above 6. Even more cards are dropped, and it appears to go to 5 (a mistake! Tension!), but then it is seen that the cards are still at 6!, and yet additional cards are dropped after that, still leaving at least 6 card until the very end of the routine.

The routine is about staying close to a base level even as increasing numbers of cards are subtracted.

The audience will never be counting the cards during this routine. It's all about feeling. It's obvious that dropping cards should make the number of cards go down significantly, so I can't imagine someone being confused. I believe even a 5-year-old child could follow this routine easily. And, there is no need for the audience to count anyway because Pop Haydn does that for them.

The cheer after going from 5 to 6 cards makes it clear that particular phase works very well. I realized Pop Haydn had not really messed up, yet at the same time I felt the desire for him to succeed and I felt satisfaction when he again had 6 cards. I am quite sure this is what the audience feels at that stage of the routine.

There are plenty of funny moments too, and none of these moments step on the magic. I think the routine construction is brilliant.

I suppose there is probably some way to improve the routine. I write that not because I am aware of any deficiency, rather, because I suspect that very few routines, if any, are perfect. I like this routine a lot, and I don't know how to improve it. Perhaps at the end the cards turn into a rabbit! Smile (Hmmm, is that inconsistent idea really a bad idea?)
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
Pop Haydn
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Thanks, Bill! I was thinking more in the line of a giant coin production... Smile
Jiceh
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Quote:
On 2013-07-22 17:08, Pop Haydn wrote:
So Jiceh, you agree with Neal that the plot is confusing for the spectators?

I agree with the fact taht it is hard to understand each phase
But there is no confusion in the plot because entertainment can compensate the moment when the spectator does'nt make link with between each phase
IMHO, each spectator doesn't see the same trick
Zombie Magic
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Quote:
On 2013-07-10 19:33, Pop Haydn wrote:
This is my new original routine, "The Six Card Trick," in the Palace of Mystery at the Magic Castle, July 7th:

http://youtu.be/K2LiuCx0aek


:applause: Smile Smile

LOVED it!

I "try" to watch any performance with laymen eyes. I agreed with the audience and those audience reactions at the key moments are the indicator that this is a winner. It will be fun to see this routine performed 6 months to 1 year from now. I don't think much will have changed, but there will be little nuances.

I must confess, I thought the small amount fumbling for the cards in the bowl was on purpose. Since cards are dropping "accidentally" it seems to fit the character for that piece, to not be completely dextrous with cards.

As a hobbyist that has no right to give Pop Haydn suggestions.......I "suggest" thinking about keeping it the way it is.

Thanks as always for letting us see your work.
Jiceh
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Quote:
On 2013-07-21 15:56, Pop Haydn wrote:
The fact that you understand the counts and know other versions of the effect may make things more confusing for you than for the average person.

Normally, if there is a serious problem with the audience following a routine, it will show up in their response. I didn't notice that in any of my performances, and no one else seems to have the same problem.

Pop,
A spectator reaction is hard to analyse bacause there are a lot of parameters. Let's take 2 : structure of the routine and impact of characters-lines.
Your character and lines are so well choose that people can react even if they don't understand the effect (Sure you have already experienced that : Someone laugh at a joke and when you ask them to explain it, they can't and they said they haven't understand it). But that's not really a problem in your routine.

You asked me about confusion. Confusion is a good thing because it's the first step in learning (They say that in PNL). Confusion in the mind is necessary and inevitable when you first see something structured.
So, when I referd to confusion, it was this kind of confusion (confusion linked to the learning process). It was not the kind of confusion Dai Vernon refered when he said that "confusion is not magic".

There is a phase in your routine where, when while you are explaining the effect (mimic the trow of one card), you let drope one card (or several I don't remember)and when you count them, you have 5.
It disrupted me the first time because I expected you to have 6 cards. The act I think you played (always have 6 cards whatever the external events are) was not the one I saw.
It disupted me because it was near the begin of your routine and I didn't have enough time to make the effect clear in my head (because I was "learning" your effect as a spectator).
This phase breaks a little the clarity of the effect in my head and maybe it affects the suite of the routine (because it is difficult when you are in mode "learning" to analyse and make links between phases).
It's like the parody of the tricks comes and I haven't see the trick yet).

This answer may seem like a critic but it is not, it is just an impression.
Nevertheless, I really appreciate your routine and I have to watch others performance you did.

I hope my answer in not unduly confused
SteveFromSpokane
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[quote]On 2013-07-23 03:55, Zombie Magic wrote:
Quote:
I must confess, I thought the small amount fumbling for the cards in the bowl was on purpose. Since cards are dropping "accidentally" it seems to fit the character for that piece, to not be completely dextrous with cards.



Very good point there. I overlooked that but it does add to the character's less than complete dexterity.
Pop Haydn
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[quote]On 2013-07-23 07:21, Jiceh wrote:
Quote:
There is a phase in your routine where, when while you are explaining the effect (mimic the trow of one card), you let drope one card (or several I don't remember)and when you count them, you have 5.
It disrupted me the first time because I expected you to have 6 cards. The act I think you played (always have 6 cards whatever the external events are) was not the one I saw.
It disupted me because it was near the begin of your routine and I didn't have enough time to make the effect clear in my head (because I was "learning" your effect as a spectator).


So do you think I need to count six instead of five at that point? Would that be the point you think the routine should end? How would you justify going any further?
Pop Haydn
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[quote]On 2013-07-23 10:12, Pop Haydn wrote:
[quote]On 2013-07-23 07:21, Jiceh wrote:
Quote:
There is a phase in your routine where, when while you are explaining the effect (mimic the trow of one card), you let drope one card (or several I don't remember)and when you count them, you have 5.
It disrupted me the first time because I expected you to have 6 cards. The act I think you played (always have 6 cards whatever the external events are) was not the one I saw.
It disrupted me because it was near the begin of your routine and I didn't have enough time to make the effect clear in my head (because I was "learning" your effect as a spectator).

When you say you were confused, and the effect was not yet clear in your head, do you mean you didn't realize that there were supposed to be six cards at that point, or just that the fact that there weren't six surprised you?

If you were "confused" that there were just five instead of six, doesn't that mean you understood the effect already?

If you expected there to be six after I dropped three cards and threw away one, weren't you already clear on what the effect is?

Wasn't it clear that I had failed to accomplish the effect?

So do you think I need to count six instead of five at that point?

Would that be the point you think the routine should end?

How would you justify going any further?
KokoB
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This was great, was this how you opened you're evening? a great opener.
Pop Haydn
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Thanks! It was the official opener, but we did a pre-show opening bit with the Medicine Pitch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk1bxDsUn_c
Jiceh
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Quote:
On 2013-07-23 10:16, Pop Haydn wrote:

When you say you were confused, and the effect was not yet clear in your head, do you mean you didn't realize that there were supposed to be six cards at that point, or just that the fact that there weren't six surprised you?

If you were "confused" that there were just five instead of six, doesn't that mean you understood the effect already?

If you expected there to be six after I dropped three cards and threw away one, weren't you already clear on what the effect is?

Wasn't it clear that I had failed to accomplish the effect?

So do you think I need to count six instead of five at that point?

Would that be the point you think the routine should end?

How would you justify going any further?
[/quote]

1 - When you say you were confused, and the effect was not yet clear in your head, do you mean you didn't realize that there were supposed to be six cards at that point, or just that the fact that there weren't six surprised you?
I'm sorry but I made a little mistake in my answer. The phase that disrupted me was when you do the real effect the first time (You have 6 cards, you throw one but let fall 1 or 2. You count the cards and you now have 5 as if the effect didn't work). Because, as I was expecting 6 cards, I was a little surprised because the effect I had anticiped (always have 6 cards whatever the external events are ) was not the one you showed. Maybe it's about me...
Maybe this phase comes too soon in the routine. A repetition of the phase (where you just mimic the effect, let one card falls but still have 6) permits to anchor the concept of the routine in the spectator mind (but I'm not sure it is necessary). The fact that you have an amazing character prevents the spectator to analyse and dissect the effect because he is relaxing watching an amazing performance.

I remember one thing Tommy Wonder said “you never give a baby 2 spoons but you never give an empty one”. In the last phase, it is like you give 2 spoons. It is the first time you performs REALLY the effect but it doesn't work and not the way we couldn't have anticipated (6 cards – 1 card you throw – 2 cards you let fall = 5 cards). Thus, it complicated the understanding of the effect. What confuse me is that phase is logic : 6 cards – 1 card you throw (the effect doesn't work in your point of view) – 2 cards you let fall (the effect works but you are not aware of it) = 5 cards.


2 - If you were "confused" that there were just five instead of six, doesn't that mean you understood the effect already?
CF my answer above.


3 - If you expected there to be six after I dropped three cards and threw away one, weren't you already clear on what the effect is?
CF my answer above.


4 - Wasn't it clear that I had failed to accomplish the effect?
It is clear but not the first time I saw it. Because the phase (CF the description above) disturbed me a little.


So do you think I need to count six instead of five at that point?
I think you may do 2 times the first phase where you explains and mimis the effect (You o it whitout being aware).


5 - Would that be the point you think the routine should end?
No


How would you justify going any further?
I don't know. But I'm going to think about it.
Jiceh
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I have said in this topic : The phase that disrupted me was when you do the real effect the first time (You have 6 cards, you throw one but let fall 1 or 2. You count the cards and you now have 5 as if the effect didn't work). Because, as I was expecting 6 cards, I was a little surprised because the effect I had anticiped (always have 6 cards whatever the external events are ) was not the one you showed.

What does the spectators think if instead of this phase, you use the following one? You have 6 cards, you throw one away, you count them and you have 5. Then you can go on : You mimimic the effect asking yourself why it didn't work and this time you let one card fall whithout notice it, you count them and have 6, etc

I don't suggest you to change your routine (and you shouldn't) but ask just a question.
Pop Haydn
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Well, actually, I count the cards twice. Then I explain the trick, and drop one, and complete the trick without knowing it. You think I should then do the count, throw away one, not dropping any, but this time have five instead of six.

What problem does that solve? Aren't both the audience and the magician going to be surprised at that point? How is it different? You and I anticipate six, but we don't get it. What is unclear? Is it just that it didn't go the way you expected? Isn't that the point? Isn't that what is happening to Pop as well?

Are you upset that Pop failed? So was he. So he tries to figure it out by counting.

We are at the same place as if we had dropped two, but not as funny in my opinion. Remember, when I drop cards, in their minds I am running out of cards to throw. When they are convinced there were only six in the beginning, and then four are dropped and there is five, they are convinced there are only five. Then four more appear from nowhere.
Jiceh
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Quote:
On 2013-07-23 15:57, Pop Haydn wrote:
Well, actually, I count the cards twice. Then I explain the trick, and drop one, and complete the trick without knowing it. You think I should then do the count, throw away one, not dropping any, but this time have five instead of six.

I think it can be a good idea to do the funny phase(complete the trick without knowing it) twice to anchor the effect in the spectator mind. Then you can do the parody(You have 6 cards, you throw one but let fall 1 or 2. You count the cards and you now have 5 as if the effect didn't work).
Jiceh
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Quote:
On 2013-07-23 15:57, Pop Haydn wrote:
We are at the same place as if we had dropped two, but not as funny in my opinion. Remember, when I drop cards, in their minds I am running out of cards to throw. When they are convinced there were only six in the beginning, and then four are dropped and there is five, they are convinced there are only five. Then four more appear from nowhere.

This is one of the strong points of the routine as far as structure is concerned.
Jiceh
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Quote:
On 2013-07-23 15:57, Pop Haydn wrote:
What problem does that solve? Aren't both the audience and the magician going to be surprised at that point? How is it different? You and I anticipate six, but we don't get it. What is unclear? Is it just that it didn't go the way you expected? Isn't that the point? Isn't that what is happening to Pop as well?

What is unclear : If the effect works, you must have 6 cards, if it doesn't work, you must have 3 cards (you throw one, and you let 2 fall). But you have 5. It's a curious feeling (maybe you can say, in a funny way, something like "I don't expected that")...
Pop Haydn
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Why is surprise bad? Isn't that the point? Pop is surprised, a bit confused. He never expected that, either!

Something is wrong...what could it be? He doesn't figure it out until he gets seven cards twice in a row. "Ahh! The math of the room is off!" Pop will have to adjust for that, and then he can complete the trick successfully.

Is creating a routine that behaves the way the spectators would expect it to behave somehow better?

I also think that the surprise that Pop shows, and the jarring surprise the spectators get when the count is off, helps emphasize that there must really be only five cards in Pop's hands: "Did I drop one?" If nobody got what they expected, everyone is innocent. Pop isn't doing it. The audience needs to suspend disbelief and go with Pop's astonishment and puzzlement. Once they do that, they forget he is the con man tricking them. He can't be doing sleight of hand--he was gobsmacked himself at the way it turned out.

He thinks he should have six. He knows he threw one away, and if the magic worked he should still have six. But the magic didn't work. What could have happened? "Did I drop one?" He looks to see if any are still in the bowl, "Could I have miscounted?" So he counts to himself, one-handed, ignoring the audience. "Six! I thought I had made a mistake, but I was wrong!" From the audience point of view, that six is a real magical surprise. From Pop's point of view, it is what he expected, and a relief--but not a very good presentation. Pop decides to do it again and get it right. But now there are seven.

I think the plot and the magical theme are both complex and multi-layered, but I don't think confusing.

I think the audience really got the magic of it, and were fooled and surprised and enjoyed the journey. But that is my opinion. I may still be too close to it.
Jiceh
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Quote:
On 2013-07-23 16:46, Pop Haydn wrote:
Why is surprise bad? Isn't that the point? Pop is surprised, a bit confused. He never expected that, either!

Something is wrong...what could it be? He doesn't figure it out until he gets seven cards twice in a row. "Ahh! The math of the room is off!" Pop will have to adjust for that, and then he can complete the trick successfully.

Is creating a routine that behaves the way the spectators would expect it to behave somehow better?

I also think that the surprise that Pop shows, and the jarring surprise the spectators get when the count is off, helps emphasize that there must really be only five cards in Pop's hands: "Did I drop one?" If nobody got what they expected, everyone is innocent. Pop isn't doing it. The audience needs to suspend disbelief and go with Pop's astonishment and puzzlement. Once they do that, they forget he is the con man tricking them. He can't be doing sleight of hand--he was gobsmacked himself at the way it turned out.

He thinks he should have six. He knows he threw one away, and if the magic worked he should still have six. But the magic didn't work. What could have happened? "Did I drop one?" He looks to see if any are still in the bowl, "Could I have miscounted?" So he counts to himself, one-handed, ignoring the audience. "Six! I thought I had made a mistake, but I was wrong!" From the audience point of view, that six is a real magical surprise. From Pop's point of view, it is what he expected, and a relief--but not a very good presentation. Pop decides to do it again and get it right. But now there are seven.

I think the plot and the magical theme are both complex and multi-layered, but I don't think confusing.

I think the audience really got the magic of it, and were fooled and surprised and enjoyed the journey. But that is my opinion. I may still be too close to it.

Very good point, Pop!
I haven't undesrtood the trick this way (just parts of it)
I have to review it again in order to see if your description can fit my impression
Pop Haydn
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Thanks, Jiceh. Let me know what you decide.
Jiceh
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Quote:
On 2013-07-23 16:46, Pop Haydn wrote:
He thinks he should have six. He knows he threw one away, and if the magic worked he should still have six. But the magic didn't work. What could have happened? "Did I drop one?" He looks to see if any are still in the bowl, "Could I have miscounted?"

Recapitulatif : If the trick works, you must have 6 cards. If the tricks doesn't work, you must have 3 cards (6- 1 you threw - 2 that fell = 3).

There are 2 elements in this phase:
- The trick doesn't work for you because you have 5 cards
- The trick doesn't work for the public but not the way expected. As you now have 5 cards, the spectators can ask themselves why the cards you let fall has returned in the packet, but not the one you threw.

For me, this instant takes time to understand and digest
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