Ed it is NOT "breaking the rules!!!!!" If someone tells me to stop and I continue, THAT is breaking the rules. However if I do not know the rules (OK I didn't ask what they were so I obviously could not know them) I am not breaking them. Then when informed, I am no longer ignorant so I follow them like the "true cross." Meantime I made a couple hundred dollars. He11 even the United States Military preaches exactly what I am saying, they call it "don't ask, don't tell."

May I join this debate?
I find this interesting partly due to the fact so many people are bound by the ideal that they must follow the laws of the Land! If one was to make a rule that you are no longer to express your opinion on open forums would you obey? Rules are not laws and laws and can be very unjust, hear lies a problem. You have those who will risk nothing to be seen to do the right thing and those who will lay down their life in order to save a fellow man. I think their is a line we draw and come push and shove we will all cross it. So I conclude rules are their to be broken.

I didn't realize one had to be a scofflaw to be a busker.
Or is it only some rules, the rules you don't like that are "their[sic] to be broken?"

How do you feel about the rule on free speech in public that so many access to ply their trade? I assume, when the cop breaks the rule and shuts you down, it's all fine and dandy? Or, is that one of the rules we like?

There's a flip side to this. Following the rules gives you power that ignoring them does not. If you have permission, or a license/permit, you gain legitimacy and protection. Bet you don't mind the "rules" so much when someone is blaring an amp next to you in a "quiet zone."

Do you really not mind being rousted or is it more a matter of having enough experience to avoid really touchy situations and tickets?

Where's the line?

I need to break down my thoughts as you have seemed to make three points.

I see freedom of speach first to be human right.
If they have made that into a law then they are bound by that law.
I agree with you if the police where to shut me down then they are breaking that law.
As same much if they try to enforce a licence to perform I don't see the diffrence?

Mario,
I was reacting to what I see as a poor general principle - do what you want until/unless someone complains. It's so common, we say it almost without thinking: "It's better to beg forgiveness that ask permission." I'm arguing it really is better to get permission than not.

That works differently for the experienced pros than it does for most. Why? Because you guys already have professional ethics and lines you don't cross. Doubtful I'd find a pro in the middle of the Mall of America without permission, or horning in on someone else's pitch under the same logic. But I might very well start hatting the edge of your crowd before your finale - maybe a hat and a sign saying, "Support the magical arts" - using the same principle.

The hypocrisy, for me, comes in when one set of laws (First Amendment primarily) is used to justify public busking on the one hand and then we want to ignore other laws (soliciting or signage or whatever) and claim ignorance as an excuse. Wouldn't you prefer to know you are covered by local ordinances? I would. In fact, if I took the trouble to get a permit and someone else didn't, I might be tempted to push the issue if there was a conflict. In this latter case, I think following the rules protects us and can support busking.

In the larger picture, there's a range of street activities going on. You've got everything from the aggresive transient begging change to the professional, career busker. There ought to be a difference between those extremes. Knowing and following the rules is one such distinction.

And I'll repeat that this isn't a big deal for experienced pros. You already pretty much know what you can get away with, what you can't and how to handle conflicts. A new guy reading this though? Not so much. And it's much worse for those of us who aren't travelling to new venues much.

But I do know them. And you should know them before you get involved as well. It would be common courtesy. It would get in the way of your desires, but it would still be the right thing to do.

Writeall
Judgeing by your post I am guessing you don't busk much perhaps not at all?
Not that matters.

Let me help by making a distinction their is a diffrence between private owened shopping malls and the street.

Malls in the USA I know little about but back hear in the UK I would not want to work them with out being paid well.
So that would be my approach.

As far as street it does not matter if you new or old to busking we or learn the same way. For me its not what I can get away with rather what is my human right.

I have used the line "It's easier to apologise than ask for permission." I know a few pitches that's the way it is. IE thoes who don't ask work and thoes who ask don't, Mainly in Spain. You see if you don't ask somtimes they just don't care but if you ask and they say no and then you do any way. Well if they see you now, they will care, I told you your not alowed now your screwed. You see some pitches can work like this for decades, hear you be a idiot to ask. Life just goes on and no one cares.

I think using the line "It's easier to apologise than ask for permission." as a way of just having a go is a bit lame.

My stance is diffrent to this. I will only come under authority if I have broken it. If I am chose to take a stand and an officer says to me I am not allowed to busk hear. I will say officer I would love to conply and work with you, for me to do this it is my leagal right to know what law I am breaking, not rule but law. I am trying to be polite here in the UK and Europe their is no leagle law that can ban busking. Yes I beleave the First Amendment in the US gives you the same right.

Your right about soliciting, begging, sinage you see I don't care about other folks business. As same much as a shopkeeper wont care for mine. What I care about is does the officer no of some law that I know nothing about or could not find? A law he is willing to arrest me on and take me to court over? Does he know of a law that will stand in court?

Let me take this a little further and ask anyone to present us a LAW that will stand in high court?
What is this law because

In all the years I have been busking never have I been presented such a law, rules are not laws?

In that case why mention it?

Good point Zuke, my point of mentioning it is how we work things out. Their is a big diffrence working this stuff out on the street to the magic Café. A lot of things can be said on the magic Café but on the street its whole diffrent beast. In my mind A statment of fact can be more of a question if its not first hand experianced, their for (as I go on to imply) I am hear to help.

I will further add my experiance in the UK and Europe as a whole a lot cities now welcome buskers as in some year a go it may have been a diffrent expeiance. This is largley due to an understanding that busking is good practise in the street of that city and their is no set law forbiding it. We benerfit from buskers from time passed who did make a stand and eventually educated the city of the benerfits and the law. My hope is this stance will bring about an acceptance of buskers in every city where ever we chose to go.

I don't accept rules that have been made up that are not lawful and leagaly binding. We favour them as a way that city alow us to busk (or not) as if we are to be thankful to them if they do. When in fact their rules are not necessary a true reflection of any laws passed. The bottom line is what is your human right and are you breaking the law?

I hope my frieand Surgei will add to this thread as he is most passionernet about buskers rights in the US. He is an American so he will be more helpful to you and your struggle with the laws of the land. He has been arrested more than once in the US for standing up for his rights in turn as I understand it the Police have with drew their charges when they realised they did not have a leg to stand on.

Mario,
It looks like we are talking about two different things. I heartily approve of standing up for your rights and getting laws changed or clarified. This isn't the same as seeing what you can get away with. I think that aggressive buskers who intrude where they aren't wanted (with, "I didn't know" as the excuse) make the rest look bad.

Do you think it's a good idea to encourage new buskers to, "just show up and see" or "do it until you get run off" or whatever, when it comes to fairs, flea markets, and other "controlled" venues? Doesn't that sound like a street magician bothering people lined up for a movie? Contrast this with threads here where responsible people are asking what the rules are in NYC or elsewhere. As a practical matter, would you set up in a place where you knew you weren't allowed, with the idea of grabbing a few bucks and running off? I hope not.

People who take the flack to challenge a law are heroes. They are committed and purposeful. But that's not what's going on when someone crashes a county fair.

For me it is about human rights and I would encourage any one to stand for them.
I would not encourage somone to break the Law but to first find out if their is a law set against them.
In addtion if their is a law we need to ask does that law infringe on a human right.
I now rest my case, funny thing I am going to watch the film Linconln.
All the best
Mario

Is it a good idea to just show up & see? YES!! I am not bothering people at all I am putting on my show by getting attention and getting the crowd to VOLUNTARILY stop to see me. Then if they have forgotten their worries for a few minutes to drop some banknotes in my hat. There is not a thing wrong with doing this anywhere, except on private property. If the authorities stop me I will gladly quit right then and go some other event that will allow it. I have learned that if you ask the answer will be NO! but if they see the show in progress most of the time they will not only allow it but even pay me to be there.

How can you sell your show if people won't bother to look at it.

I agree with you Paddy.

I'll add my thoughts, not to agree or disagree with anyone, but rather to give a different perspective.

First of all while I am a busker, I work a lot of festivals, lots.
Most of these fests have taken me a huge amount of effort and investment to be able to work as a performer.

I believe it is advantageous to work with the organisers & get their permission rather than 'crash the site'. You don't have to look over your shoulder all the time, and you won't waste your time traveling to a site only to get kicked out. Plus with permission you can often set up right in the middle of the fest giving you the best hats instead of off to the side.


Often it as taken me years to finally get the privilege to perform there.
When someone shows up and crashes the site, often pitching very near me....I'm usually not greatly sympathetic towards them.

I think some of you might be rationalizing here a tad.

When a festival runs in a city, even though it is 'public property', the organizers have obtained and paid for road closures, licenses to run the event, and in effect are leasing the property from the city for their event.

IMHO it's also a misconception that if the organisers see your show and how good it is they will allow you to stay. There is some truth to this and it does happen but generally most event people don't give 2 hoots how good you or your show might be. They have a million other things to take care of and the last thing they need is a rogue performer who could possibly add to their growing lists of problems.

I'm not saying crashing festival is right or wrong. Most of us buskers have done it, myself included.
However I think some of the newer buskers read this and think it is the way to go.....when in reality if they are serious (about busking/street performing in the long run) they should be spending time and effort on developing decent promotional material and people/business skills.

Hopefully this makes some sense.

Makes total sense to me and I agree with 100%
I have crashed festavels before but they are certain festavels that lend them selfs to that.
For example Spanish Ferrias. Other than that I agree with you.

Their are thousands of festavels through out the world.
In Anderlucia alone their is 3500 ferrias each year mental when you think about it.
Festavels like these you will never get on unless you crash them.
Just a big party on the street realy.

On the other hand I to get booked for festavels that has a budget and I would not turn up and and step on performers work.

I like to add it realy depends on the festival. For example in the good old days of Glastonbury that's exactly what you do and it was the norm.

I'd be more than happy if Paddy (or many others that post here) showed up at a venue I was in charge of. But the problem is that Paddy and the skilled entertainers aren't the only things in the mix. I certainly wouldn't feel the same if it were a foul-mouthed Elmo in a dirty, homemade suit.

Out of curiousity, what makes "Spanish Ferrias" lend themselves to being crashed?

For that matter, what's a "Spanish Ferrias?"

If you are on privately owned property you should not just "show up." Flea Markets, festivals, fairs, malls, these things may not all be on private property but they are often private events. Just because a lot of people are there doesn't mean it's OK to "bust in" and start doing your show. Allow me to use an example to put it in perspective.

There are public parks in and around Atlanta where I live. Often times these venues get rented out for events like weddings. A lot of people come to weddings. Does anyone think that it is OK to crash someone's wedding and see if people voluntarily stop and pay you? If you don't what makes any other private event different?

I have found, in contradiction to what Paddy said "I have learned that if you ask the answer will be NO!" that when I ask ahead of time and explain what I do, that most festival organizers want me at their event and always ask me back. I have not been turned down for any event that I have contacted a month or so in advance. It isn't often these folks get people offering to give them hours upon hours of entertainment for free. Usually they pay several hundred dollars for a band or other entertainment for a couple of hours. But if you crash it you may not only never be able to ask, you may ruin it for others. You do not have a "right" to perform at private events. If you did then you could just come do your show in my living room without asking right?