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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Great coin productions? (26 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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magicfish
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Same goes for John Carney. You won't see this master doing any handwashing or overproving. No widespread fingers or obvious attempts at flattening the hand during a palm. Naturalness is key. Attitude, motivation, attention direction.
As a student of Vernon, David Roth understood this as well as anyone.
If a fingerpalm production isn't looking like real magic, it is an inferior method.
magicfish
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*it isn't an inferior method.
funsway
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Quote:
On Mar 2, 2021, countrymaven wrote:
Vanish a coin and hold it in finger palm for a group of kids. See how long it takes them to suspect something.


I think you support my later point. A vanish isn't very strong magic by itself. But in combination with a larger effect
it can be an essential step. In a coins-across you do not want anyone to think vanish and reappear - just "transposition" or "secret flight."

That is one reason I don't get excited about "coin flash" in an effect "POV/ROV Vanish" as they draw attention to the coin being in the receiving hand.

I usually don't want the observer to even remember that I changed hands. The putting of a coin in the other hand draws attention enough without shouting about it.
Of course, I have a favorite POV or two when appropriate, but usually do something else guided by the overall effect.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



eBooks at Lybrary.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
countrymaven
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I agree with you all, on one level. OF course the finger palm is useful and deceptive. But from my experience, I cannot hold a coin in a finger palm long without kids suspecting it after or vanish. Or before a production. Kids tell the truth. Adults often hide what they suspect or even know. Also, your experience and magic can vary from mine.

As for the Mutobe palm, I have found it highly deceptive. Thanks for pointing out having fingers spread is not a natural position to hold for long. But of course I get it in a different palm. Whether edge grip, thumb palm, back thumb palm, finger, classic or back to mutobe or edge grip, it all depends on what effect I am doing. So of course I do not hold it there for long nor do I splay my fingers wide as some performers do. Yet still, for me, this just results in miraculous effects. Spectators really just KNOW it is not there. Even though it is. I am just trying to pass this on, if perhaps someone else can use it.. I had to practice using it, getting it in there and into different palms very naturally.

But I think we must admit on some level that holding coins in finger palm for extended periods, and really thinking that nobody suspects this, is fooling yourself. I could be wrong, but what you could get by with in the 80s to 90s does not always cut it any more with the finger palm when it is overused. Just try it on kids to see what people who say what they think will reveal.

I think the topic of masterful palm transfers (from one position to other specific palms, in order to deceive) needs to be addressed more, particularly for magical coin productions. I have found that even a French drop, with some palm transfers and patter can blow spectator's minds.

Magic is highly individual and creative. I highly respect anyone if what you do works for you and creates magic and fun for others. I am just trying to share from my experience, hoping that this will help some of the audience out there, and also am thankful for the many good points and suggestions you all have made. Cheers.
funsway
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Why limit handling to "finger palm?" It is possible to go about one's daily activities with a coin concealed in one's hands and no one the wiser.
Driving a car, chatting with friends, paying for items at a store, fixing a meal - everything.

No one sees the coin because they do not even suspect its existence, and you have the practiced ability to change hands and idle the coin
using natural hand and body movements.

So, the problems with kids and adults "suspecting" or "looking for it" is because you create the suspicion and give them a reason to search for a hidden coin.

If instead, if you create an expectation of the coin to "be gone", create the anticipation that it will seems impossible and they will like that,
and then eliminate every explanation except "must be magic" then there is no suspicion or search. If you are just doing a skill demonstration then you deserve the suspicion.

The real key is to orchestrate the desire to experience magic so badly that even you (the performer) can't mess it up.

As one example for your vanish challenge. In a traditional vanish sequence a a coin in the right fingers is placed in the left hand that closes. Later the that hand opens and the coin is gone. Naturally, the first inclination for the observer is to glance back at your right hand. This doesn't have to mean they are suspicious of the magic. Perhaps they doubt their memory of you
placing it in the left hand. So, one solution is to show your right hand to be empty BEFORE you open you left to reveal the "gone." Not "sorta display" with a clever palming technique - no, nothing there to hide because that hand is empty. You learn to do a False Transfer rather than a Fake Transfer - or mix of both.

The key is that you can preempt any suspicion and even provide later acquitments to affirm the memory of "just gone, can't explain it - don't have to - just wallowed in the astonishment."

But, as I indicated earlier, I would never so this sequence. The vanish would be part of a larger effect with other actions between the placement and reveal. There would have to be a reason to place the coin in the left hand. Only magicians pick up a coin from a table with right fingers and transfer the coin to the left hand. Any kid would just pick up that coin with the left fingers!

So, you are correct. You can't fool a kid for long after creating so much suspicion. Learn to deflect the suspicion before it occurs, not after.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



eBooks at Lybrary.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
scotchrocket
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Quote:
On Mar 2, 2021, countrymaven wrote:
As for the Mutobe palm, I have found it highly deceptive. Thanks for pointing out having fingers spread is not a natural position to hold for long. But of course I get it in a different palm. Whether edge grip, thumb palm, back thumb palm, finger, classic or back to mutobe or edge grip, it all depends on what effect I am doing. So of course I do not hold it there for long nor do I splay my fingers wide as some performers do. Yet still, for me, this just results in miraculous effects. Spectators really just KNOW it is not there. Even though it is. I am just trying to pass this on, if perhaps someone else can use it.. I had to practice using it, getting it in there and into different palms very naturally.


I haven't seen much work using Mutobe palm but I will say that when I saw Eric Jones perform it on the Metal series I couldn't believe what I was seeing. That moment alone was worth the price of the DVD, if not the entire series.

Quote:
On Mar 2, 2021, countrymaven wrote:
I think the topic of masterful palm transfers (from one position to other specific palms, in order to deceive) needs to be addressed more, particularly for magical coin productions.


Totally agree. Beyond "what comes before & after the move is just as important," we (as a community) don't discuss the bigger picture/timeline nearly as much as we should. It exists in books on magic theory, but not much is taught practically on DVD's, etc.

Quote:
On Mar 2, 2021, countrymaven wrote:
Magic is highly individual and creative. I highly respect anyone if what you do works for you and creates magic and fun for others. I am just trying to share from my experience, hoping that this will help some of the audience out there, and also am thankful for the many good points and suggestions you all have made. Cheers.


Love this, and I agree here, too.

It's a very individual journey which can feel counter-intuitive, since we are learning by emulating movements, sleights, and routines... but the good stuff really comes from hunkering down and taking ownership of it.
All about borrowed coins.
Mb217
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Speaking of "finger palms"...

Quote:
On Mar 2, 2021, countrymaven wrote:
I agree with you all, on one level. OF course the finger palm is useful and deceptive. But from my experience, I cannot hold a coin in a finger palm long without kids suspecting it after or vanish. Or before a production. Kids tell the truth. Adults often hide what they suspect or even know. Also, your experience and magic can vary from mine...

...But I think we must admit on some level that holding coins in finger palm for extended periods, and really thinking that nobody suspects this, is fooling yourself. I could be wrong, but what you could get by with in the 80s to 90s does not always cut it any more with the finger palm when it is overused. Just try it on kids to see what people who say what they think will reveal...



Quote:
On Jul 3, 2020, countrymaven wrote:
WE all owe a big debt to you. Even those who have not discovered your coin magic yet but who will.
Your "MB Active Finger Palm" is one of the greatest coin sleights and hideouts ever. Why? Angle proof, Totally convincing, while they see your "empty hand." Besides all the other great magic you have given us.


Quote:
On Jul 4, 2020, countrymaven wrote:
Hint hint. It is all through his work. This is a rare case where someone has not gotten credit for an innovation that is huge. I would suggest getting his "Short Pockets" download. Look at the video of his Crimp Change. Is it possible he is hiding something in his hand?

This is an innovation which puts the Ramsay subtlety on steroids. Yes is is a small innovation . But small innovations have been the reason for great leaps in magic and technology. Since MB has not gotten credit for it, I choose to name it the "MB Active Finger Palm." Because when you hold it there and move your fingers (this movement is why it is the "Active" FP), which are at an angle, it SEEMS UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE THAT A COIN COULD BE THERE. IF YOU MANAGE IT PROPERLY, WHICH IS EASY TO DO, IT IS ANGLE FREE. Thanks Marion, you deserve the credit.


😊
*Check out my latest: The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
countrymaven
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Thanks MB. I was referring to the simple finger palm in the posts above.
Look at some tapes from coin magic from the eighties to nineties. Most of the magicians thought you
could hold out in a SIMPLE finger palm a good percentage of the time, and have spectators suspect nothing.
That is why I suggested that magicians should often do coin magic for kids because they let their suspicions
and what they see to be known hehe.

I still agree what you quoted me on. That your use of the "MB High and Active" fp is one of the most
deceptive palms in magic. Because it shows your hand empty when it is not, just like the Mutobe palm. So like the Mutobe palm, what I call the MB Finger Palm is one of the most deceptive palms around. why? In the spectator's mind, a coin cannot be there even if it is. thanks everyone for your tips and suggestions. Again, if what you do works for you, you are doing it right!!!

I just think that sometimes as coin magicians we have to consider whether something is truly deceptive and miraculous, or if is just "tricks" those watching it. I am trying to apply this to my own coin magic. So I am giving myself a hard time first hehe.
Michael Rubinstein
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Countrymaven, I agree that Marion uses that finger palm position to great advantage, and his hand has a very empty appearance when he displays a coin in that hand while hiding a second one. However, a bit of history. While I am not the move police as some have alluded to, I think proper crediting is important. There was a long topic on this very position, and I researched it extensively for my book to get proper context of credit history (including talking to Marion). Marion credited Homer Liwag, and named it the Liwag subtlety because it didn't have a name. I then talked to Homer, who was honored that someone gave him credit for the position when I talked to him about it. However, the first reference in the literature was by Mike Gallo in his 1989 Siamese Coins manuscript (illustrated but not addressed), and seen in the 1996 Siamese Coins video, used with his Spider vanish in the routine Hanging on a Purse String (and it's use can quite clearly be seen in the video). Since there was no name associated with the position by Gallo, in my book I called it Gallo Modified Finger Palm, just to give it a name and proper ownership (as Gallo had the first published reference). I know that Marion was unaware of Gallo's use predating Homer. Bob Kohler also claimed credit for it's use at about the same time, although did not publish anything that used the position (and we talked about that as well). Years later in 2011 (2017 English version), Luis Pedrahita published the position as an original technique in his book Coins and other Fables and called it Huddle palm.
Making up a new name when others exist not only is confusing, but it takes away credit from the true originators. Sometimes it occurs from being unaware of earlier citations and being an honest mistake, like Bobo calling a position the Goshman pinch when it was really the Tenkai pinch, and the Kaps subtlety named by someone (not Kaps) because he used it a lot, when it was shown to Kaps by Vernon who said it was actually used by Malini).
I post this so that others will not miscall the position after reading your posts, and hope this does not step on anyone's toes or offend anyone, as the purpose is just to get it right.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
magicfish
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Great post Michael. Thankyou.
countrymaven
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Mr. Rubinstein said this "Making up a new name when others exist not only is confusing, but it takes away credit from the true originators. Sometimes it occurs from being unaware of earlier citations and being an honest mistake, like Bobo calling a position the Goshman pinch when it was really the Tenkai pinch, and the Kaps subtlety named by someone (not Kaps) because he used it a lot, when it was shown to Kaps by Vernon who said it was actually used by Malini)."

First of all, we are talking about a move used forever in coin magic, the finger palm. So it is a bit obvious that others did discover the high finger palm before Gallo did is reasonable. IT is only a slight variation of the normal finger palm. Since the finger palm is used quite a bit in coin magic, it is reasonable to assume that many discovered the high finger palm before Gallo did. I was certainly using the high finger palm well before Gallo published it, as were many, many others.

In card magic, it is common to allow people the freedom to refer to their favorite regular palm or one handed palm or bottom palm by the name of the creator of that variation. It is a way of referring to a preference in the way that creator developed it.

I believe in magic that although there is certainly a way of referencing the first of any move, when it was first published, that is not the only way to think of a move. Someone who comes along later may innovate in in very slight ways which, to some magicians, has made a world of difference in that particular move. So in this case, the first or others who published later did not make much difference to some until they started using the subtle variations of that move developed much later.

Such is the case with me and others who have witnessed Marion Boykin's "High and Active Finger Palm." I am not trying to lay claim to naming it, but to me and many others, it fools people completely where other prior versions of the high finger palm did not. The point is completely fooling; it is a palm that is not even suspected. If you have other thoughts, I respect them. Magic is a creative art and we must accept that for some, some things work miracles.

So it is sometimes useful to talk in the historical context, of the first to publish, it may not mean a lot to some of us, for some sleights. In a universally used sleight as the finger palm, it is not just that the high finger palm is used but that it is used in a way that subtleties are added that make the sleight into gold, in the minds of some magicians.

So I might suggest that we need to have freedom of speech in magic. What works most for me may not be what works for you. Also, in an almost universal move like the finger palm, it is reasonable that for some, the subtleties added, for instance, by MB, made this the sleight that is not suspected. Or a miracle maker. I have done it surrounded and had nobody even suspect a sleight. But from experience, I believe it is because of the subtleties added by MB that made it work, not because someone previously published what I had already been doing before they published it.

Again, if in card magic we can prefer a certain bottom palm and its subtleties, for instance, we do not need to always refer back to the first who published. They may not have had the subtleties that make it a miracle in my hands, for instance. But these small subtleties added by MB, IMHO, made it a miracle worker.
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I respectfully and forcefully disagree. The term High Finger Palm first of all, has been used to demonstrate a position where a coin is held by the upper phalanges of the second and third fingers as opposed to the lower phalanges. What Gallo, Liwag, and Pedrahita have done is create a workable variation where the coin is held in a more illusive way, by extending the second finger and withrawing the third finger, giving a greater illusion of an empty hand. It is indeed just a finger palm variation, but needs an accurate name to define the difference between that and a standard finger palm (or even a third finger finger palm, which is yet another finger palm variation and one used all the time). This position is more like a cross between finger palm and nowhere palm. The fact that many people might have played with it in the past means nothing if they never published the position. Publishing is the only way to prove use in the historical context of crediting, although people have alluded to use of certain routines or moves by magicians of the past when publishing was simply not really done (like Downs doing Three Fly, because of a poster showing coins at the fingertips). Gallo was the first to demonstrate this finger palm variation position in print and on video, unless someone can point to an earlier reference. I researched, and didn't find one. That does not mean that Liwag and Pedrahita who published (only Pedrahita thought the position was important enough to give it a name) did not do the move well. They each independently created the move, and demonstrated its use. Marion did not independently create the position. He learned it from Homer Liwag, and was impressed enough that he began to use it and coined a name, the Liwag Subtlety (he did not know of the earlier Gallo reference or even the Pedrahita reference when he coined the name). Homer never gave it a name and was flattered that Marion thought enough of it to call it by that name. And Marion does it as well or better than anyone, but again, did not create the position (and I am sorry to drag his name into this discussion,since he did not use his own name to define this position). So to conclude, only one person, Luis Pedrahita, thought the position was important enough to give it a name. Gallo and Liwag did not think it was important enought to give it a name, but they used it in print. Gallo did it first. Kohler claimed to have also used it in the 80s but never put it into print, which makes it only an undocumented claim (and by the way, we spent a lot of time talking about it. I have no doubt that Kohler used it, but I went by the published record). Marion did not develop the move, but does it well. That does not give anyone the right to confuse the magic literature by changing the origins of a move by falsely giving it a new name. Are you going to use my Stealth Palm and then call it the Counteymaven palm because you do it well?? Are you going to call the classic palm the Roth center palm because he did it well? No. You can't just make up names because you learned it from someone who impresses you. It is wrong. You CAN say that so and so does it better than anyone else you've seen, which is in itself a flattering statement, and you can say that so and so developed a move independently, and published at a later date, as long as you state when the original move was published, to give credit to the originator.
We stand on the shoulders of those who have paved the way before us. Originators who have generously published their work for you and me, should be honored, not bismirched by eliminating their names from things they developed, and carelessly giving credit to others. That is why we try to correct the written record when we can. Goshman Pinch is Tenkai Pinch. Kaps Subtlety is Malini Subtlety. Because they are the RIGHTFUL originators. Stephen Minch has researched a lot of old literature, and has been able to correct the historical context of origins of moves and tricks, and for that we are grateful. It's about getting it right, not ego. But please, let's not confuse and alter the magic history by randomly assigning names only because we have an opinion.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
Michael Rubinstein
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Here is another example of mis crediting. John Born published his work on the Balance palm. He did not know that I had published a routine using that position (which I didn't name) in my old lecture notes, probably published before John was, err, born (unintentional pun). When I researched the position for my book, I discovered that Eddie Joseph published the same position in his book from the 40's, which took my name out of the equation as well as that of John's, as this would appear to be the first time that particular position was used in the literature. One could say that the position is used with great success by John Born and Brendan Wolf, or even cite new applications of that move used by Born and Wolf, but give credit to Eddie Joseph who first published the position. With that much earlier reference, no need to even interject my own name into the picture. If Born KNEW of the Joseph reference, it would be falsely taking credit. But at the time he published, he did not know of this reference or even my own reference. And now that this citation has been discovered and is in my book, hopefully coin magicians will begin to get it right.
Another example is Rick Holcombe's use of Sly Palm. When he put out his download, he did not know I had already taught it as Side Grip years earlier on volume 4 of the NYCMS dvd series. Someone had pointed that out to him, and he contacted me. Hopefully he has now added my credit as the originator to his download, even though he has done a lot of work with creating additional applications. Doing that work does not take away the fact that I first published the position and called it Side Grip, which should be the proper name. And I have no doubt that others may have played with that position before me, as it is a natural extention of JW Grip, which first came out in a Horace Bennet book, and popularized when Gallo found it and used it in a routine published in Apocalypse (with proper crediting). However, since no one had published the use of Side Grip prior to me, that should be the proper name and I should be listed as the originator. Rick should get credit for original applications of this move, but not for originating the position. Should someone find a reference that predates me, I am happy to step aside and give that person proper credit. But to date I have not found any other reference.
To close, it happens a lot that miscrediting occurs due to ignorance of work already published. But to KNOWINGLY CHANGE the name of a move because you want to, is just WRONG.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
Ray Haining
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The technique referred to above by Michael Rubinstein and countrymaven is a modified Ramsey Subtlety developed by Marion Boykin (Mb), which he calls the "Liwag Subtlety." It uses an altered finger palm, but like the Ramsey Subtlety, its purpose is to show an empty palm, giving the impression that the entire hand is empty.

Credit can be given to Gallo for first using a similar technique, but to attempt to rename it after Gallo is a slap in the face to Marion. When Gallo used the technique--once, as far as I know--in his Siamese Coins DVD, he did not recognize it as anything special. He did not name it, and if my memory is correct, Rubinstein himself at one time didn't consider the technique worthy of a name.

I saw Gallo's DVD. Wherever he used the technique, it made no impression on me whatsoever. Gallo's use of the technique is an outlier, a precursor at best.

The attempt to name the technique the "Gallo whatever" creates a false narrative. It suggests that Gallo invented a technique that Mb, in Rubinstein's words, "uses to great advantage." This is simply not true. Gallo had nothing to do with the deveopment of the Liwag Subtlety.

There are many cases in the history of the world where an idea is first formulated by someone, but subsequently named after someone else. So, for instance, we don't refer to the theory that the sun is the center of the solar system as the Aristarchian model of the solar system, but rather the Copernican model, because even though Aristarchus was the first, he didn't develop the idea. That was done, using mathematics and observations, by Copernicus many years later. In history books and websites, Aristarchus is credited with being the first, but the name of the model goes to Copernicus.

There are many, many examples of this throughout the history of science and technology, art and sports, architecture, etc.

Over 14 years ago, Boykin saw in the technique something worth developing. And develop it he did. He made it his own. It is a thing of beauty.

I remember the first couple of videos of Mb I saw. I couldn't figure out where the extra c*** was going. It drove me crazy. I watched the videos over and over and said to myself, "He can't be doing what I think is the only possible explanation, can he? His hand looks so empty." I contacted him, and he (graciously) explained to me the Liwag Subtlety.

Even today, though I know what he's doing, I'm still not quite sure I do know because it looks so good.

You can be sure that laypeople would have no clue.

I don't do a lot of coin work, but I've added a couple of Liwags to the few coin tricks I perform, enhancing my coin magic that much more. As we know, it's those little enhancements that elevate our magic to a higher level.

I think countrymaven is calling the Liwag Subtlety "MB's High and Active Finger Palm" because he recognizes the power of the technique--he "gets it"--and also wants to give proper credit to Mb. It's basically a descriptive name, and as a result, I don't particularly care for it because it "gives away the game," so to speak. Nevertheless, he has the right to call it that if he so chooses. To give Marion the proper credit, I at one time suggested it be called the RLB (Ramsey-Liwag-Boykin) Subtlety, but that name didn't take off either. This can be gotten around by simply calling it Mb's Liwag Subtlety.

It's been called the Liwag Subtlety for 14 years. Marion didn't name the technique after himself. He humbly named it after the magician who inspired him, Homer Liwag, and in so doing, he gives him proper credit. Marion Boykin is the magician who recognized the value of the technique and developed it, made it his own, made it a central part of his magic. As a result, he has the right to name it whatever he wants, no matter what pronouncements come from on high.

Mb's Liwag Subtlety is here to stay.
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Ray, we can agree to disagree (and as you know I strongly disagree). Both you and countrymaven do not even mention how it is used by Liwag and Pedrahita, but you both feel that because someone does something well, they deserve credit. As I mentioned, not only Gallo, but Liwag himself did not name the position. Perhaps they felt that a modified finger palm needs no name. No matter if they didn't call it that. They used it. And just because you have seen only one reference about Gallo, doesn't mean he never uses it for anything else, same with Liwag. And as I said, Pedrahita gave it a name and a section in his book, yet you guys fail to even note that. JW Grip was buried until Gallo found it and published it in a mainstream publication. Because you never saw Jimmy Wilson, does that mean you should call it the Gallo grip? No, even though he does it as well as anyone and has a bunch of applications, many that you haven't see because he doesn't put a lot into print anymore. Some stuff he did on the seminar dvds. But it isn't his. Malini NEVER called the method of hiding a coin in cp while showing a hand empty the Malini subtlety, but he used it and taught others. Kaps never called it the Kaps subtlety, but others saw him do it and do it well, and INCORRECTLY gave him the credit because they were unfamiliar with Malini and saw that Kaps did it so well. It took years to correct that in the literature. Just because you aren't aware of how someone used something, once you know they did it first should be enough to claim proper credit. Holcombe made a whole download on Sly palm, as he didn't know I put it on my dvd yrs earlier and called it Side Grip. Rick does it very well, and has thought of additional applications. But it isn't his, it is MINE. And I gave it a name. If I didn't give it a name it would still be mine, because I came up with it and published before anyone else. I don't give a rat's butt if anyone else does it well. Good for them. But I am the originator. Gallo published the use of modified finger palm before anyone else, even if 16 other people were doing it. He is the originator, and deserves rightful credit. Liwag used it and Pedrahita used it and you have no idea with what else they do with it because you are not familiar with all of their work. But they published independently and each should be credited with independent invention, although they both published later (as I mention clearly in my book). Marion learned it from Liwag. No doubt. He didn't make it up. He did not know about Gallo OR Pedrahita. It is a bad to assume he would not have learned and used it as he does now had he seen it from Gallo first. Same with Pedrahita. Doing something well is not a way to establish credit other than saying that he does it well. And Marion himself doesn't take credit. He credited Liwag because he learned it from him and was unaware of other sources. Just because Marion has made it a staple of hi coin magic and uses it in every video does not mean he should be credited, especially by giving it a name. Same with his sleeving and use of other sleights. That is the best way to mess up magic publishing, as somone who is ignorant of history might read the misname and publish something else calling it that. Then a misname will begin to circulate and others will need to correct it. Come on, this is common sense.
Ya know (this is sarcastic), Mickey Silver hides coins in a way that Ramsay would have been jealous of. He must be using the Silver Subtlety. Gallo uses the thumb palm all the time. I see it in every dvd. No one is as illusive as Gallo. Let's call it the Gallo thumb grip. I could go on, this is exactly the same thing.
So if you want to talk about this position, you can call it the Gallo modified finger palm, and mention that it is also known as the Liwag Subtlety and Huddle palm (or if you publish, do as I did and explain the history in your crediting).. But don't start making up stuff because you like the way someone does something, and you are not familiar with the work of others. Smile
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
funsway
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In many post above there appears to be confusion between "creativity" and "first published." Also between "concept" and "application."

Some comments seem more concerned with "who gets paid" than originality. Yes, it is nice to know the history behind a sleight or method in order
to understand the theory and motivation, i.e. what end result was the person trying to improve on. But argument over label does no help at all.

If a person creates a new sleight or handling in a 'non-derivative' manner, to later learn that someone else did it also does not remove the thrill of discovery.
Credit is only necessary if one wishes to publish (sell) the idea.

If one takes a known or learned sleight and modifies it as to application, then 'credit' can help other understand the distinction. Clarity?

Thus, I am just as interested in why Mb felt the need to modify a sleight he knew than who he learned the original from.

A student of coin effects would have a difficult time figuring out the differences between Kaps, Malini, Ramsey and Liwag because many authors/performers confuse them.
Why don't we try for clarity of concept and application rather than worrying about publish date?

Remember Ian Garrison? We had many discussions about derivative and non-derivative creativity. He had many ideas stolen and published by others.
He was amazed that the magic community did not attack such blatant false claims and sales, even when the original was less expensive that the rip-off.

So, why the approbation now? This thread is supposed to be about "great coin productions," not whose name belongs on a palming method.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



eBooks at Lybrary.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Michael Rubinstein
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The concept you hit on is originality. The first person to develop a new concept is original. Gallo published it first. Regardless of whether he felt the position warranted a new name, he made a conscious decision to hold his hand in this manner over a traditional finger palm, in order to make his hand look more empty. That is the same idea with Liwag, who also didn't name it. Not giving the position a name doesn't mean that the intent to make the hand look better wasn't there. As I said, I am sure Liwag and Pedrahita were not aware of Gallo's use, and as such didn't credit him or each other. Luis thought it was so important, that he gave it a section in his book. It is obvious by that, that he uses the position a great deal. I have seen on Youtube the way Liwag used it for his vanish. Marion says he learned it from that. Aside from doing it well, what can Marion claim he does that is original (and again, don't mean to drag Marion into it, as he is an innocent bystander and although this thread is about a position he uses, it really is about the broader topic of crediting, which was not brought up by Marion, but by countrymaven)? Holding a coin in your hand or not holding a coin in your hand is pretty much the same thing, if the finger position of hiding the coin is the same. And Gallo displays his hand with the thumb touching the first finger, he could just as easily be holding a coin there, no difference. We are talking about a finger position, not a move. The finger position is accomplished by extending one finger and pulling back the other. It is not a move. There is nothing more creative about it. Ramsay subtlety is the same whether you hold a coin and display it or just display an empty hand. So please, tell me what is different about the display that is used by Gallo, Liwag, Pedrahita, and Boykin. Answer - there is no difference. Why you guys want to remove Gallo's name, the guy who first published, and add someone else's name who admits to having learned it from someone else, is beyond logic.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
funsway
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Quote:
On Mar 31, 2021, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
Why you guys want to remove Gallo's name, the guy who first published, and add someone else's name who admits to having learned it from someone else, is beyond logic.


???? I wasn't referring to any person in particular, or offering an opinion as to whose name should be on it, so why are you beating the same drum? That is beyond logic.

and you start off talking about originality and creativity, then end with "the guy who first published." Also "beyond logic."

"First published" is not proof of creativity or originality. Evidence, perhaps, and obviously important to you. Not to everyone, however.

As noted, I am more interested in WHY a person decided to explore a different way of doing something. What end result drove the need for innovation or creativity (or search).

How about posting something new about "great coin productions?" If I like it, then I will worry about "best method" or whose name to use.

the issue here is not "crediting." It is about the best way to produce a coin.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



eBooks at Lybrary.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Michael Rubinstein
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Funsway, the issue became a crediting issue when credits were not given properly on this thread. You talked about originality, I explained that the creator of something is doing something original, and whether you like it or not, the guy who actually published something gets to take the credit for its development, not the guy who years later decides to use it. You answered my post with one of your own that was directly related, so I answered. You specifically state that "Thus, I am just as interested in why Mb felt the need to modify a sleight he knew than who he learned the original from", and I pointed out that he didn't modify anything.That he gave credit to Liwag is proof, and the fact that he didn't give credit to Gallo only means he was likely unaware of his use, because I am sure that if he knew of Gallo, or read Pedrahita 's book before seeing Liwag's Melt away vanish, he might have given credit to them. But if you want to know why a person decided to do something different, like Gallo, Liwag, or Pedrahita, just ask them. They are all findable and you can contact each. When I researched this I talked to Marion, Homer, and Mike, as well as Bob Kohler who stated in 2006 that he was using it as well as Homer and Mike in the mid 80s. I regret not mentioning Bob in my book because although I know he didn't publish, he did lay claim. I answered that the reason people chose that hand position was to give the hand a more open look. Asked and answered.I have made my point, and feel there is no need to continually harp on a subject I thought was long settled.

Now if you want to talk about coin productions (and the hand position in question really has nothing to do with the topic, on that we agree), here are a few:

https://youtu.be/_A-GFbthb1A

https://youtu.be/j7PIYOD5714

https://youtu.be/Z7JP4m8pGq0
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
Michael Rubinstein
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Here are a couple more productions:
https://youtu.be/si4Sb3NFlbs

https://youtu.be/4PTBBrHmr3A

Finally, a wonderful coin production by Jay Wang that he contributed to Rubinstein Coin Magic:
https://youtu.be/VbHGtGCO8kU
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
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