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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Great coin productions? (29 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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magicfish
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Michael is right here. Thank goodness for magicians like him. It is very important to keep the record straight.
Keep up the great work Michael.
funsway
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Thanks for the contributions, doc. They expand my concept of what "great production" means.

All seem to be entertaining and would probably be astonishing to most lay observers, but none
meet my standard of being "great" on either the technical "can't be done" or psychological "must be magic" side. Just me - no complaint about the performances.

These make me realize how much I err by striving for a meaningless level of perfection to make an effect "great" rather than just "magical" or a puzzle.

Some of this comes from my early training/mentoring back in the late 50's. If I was working on an effect and another magician had and idea of how to improve it,
they would show me some sleight or technique. No mention of "who created it" or "who published it". Just a different or possibly better way of achieving a desired end result.

Now I have dozens of new sleights and handling that I will probably never publish because they would not be of "popular interest."

Out of your half dozen offerings I may get an idea for some other innovation or presentation. I will not seek to find out how you did it. I will figure out my own way,
seeking an improvement over any slip or fumbling I noticed. Just for me. I promise never to publish them and risk approbation. Smile

The point is that for me "great" is taking something and making it closer to "must be magic" as the only possible conclusion. Not very marketable, though.
Creativity is its own reward. If someone else wants to put their name on one of my sleights I do not care - just perform it correctly. Make it great!
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Michael Rubinstein
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Glad you enjoyed them. As for looking like magic, we all strive to make them look as magical as possible. We improve magic by finding a flaw in a routine and looking for a better method (although I probably didn't put up the best performance for some, as I just filmed to give an idea of the routine and didn'thave the time to get a "perfect" performance filmed). As for not caring who came up with what, it would only be important should you decide to put into print something that uses a move or technique developed by someone else. Many books have incorrect credits because the author failed to do the work to figure out who came up with what. Or that author used an incorrect credit from another source that had it wrong. As I said, it is a big problem in magic. And I and many others who publish so you can learn a great new technique will continue to strive to get it right, even if someone as a reader ultimately doesn't care.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On Mar 31, 2021, magicfish wrote:
Michael is right here. Thank goodness for magicians like him. It is very important to keep the record straight.
Keep up the great work Michael.


We don't need to be divided into "right" or "wrong". We can be inclusive.

Let me emphasize, I agree it's important to keep the record straight. That's part of the "discovery" for new magicians. And if there is to be a record at all, certainly Mike Gallo's part of it is as important as anyone else's.- Despite claims to the contrary, I do feel some here have been trying to "one-up" him, and that's entirely unnecessary and beside the point of the work we do, in my opinion. It's exhausting, frankly.

I suggest: Put the info on the record and let the reader go from there. More of that would be helpful, I think.

Just a "coingirl" 's view.
countrymaven
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The problem is that if in keeping the record "straight" we hold tightly to what was first and far from best.
Magicians deceive themselves more than even their own spectators sometimes. First just because something is published, if it is not named by the "originator" is this just by chance that it was exposed and not published. "Published" should refer to that specific sleight being published.

In the end, the true originators and creators are those who take something and make a miracle out of it. Especially in magic. Going down the historical rabbit hole is a nice game to play. But MB's creation of the active and high finger palm is what made it great. IT is not a name, not a historical trail. IT is as master Ray Haining said. When you see the performer doing it you can't even imagine that they are hiding it. It is more important than the first person to put butter on bread. When was this published? You can hide in technical discussions. For instance, so and so did a chapter on this. Sorry.... this has to be done on video to truly understand it and appreciate it.

In other words, let the ones who created a miracle be able to have it named after them. Nobody does it like MB. But this is where the obvious comes into play. If I prefer a certain bottom palm in card magic, NOBODY NOBODY HAS a problem with me naming it with the creator. Others might prefer another person's bottom palm. The issue here should not be is it named after the first person who rushed it to print. The issue is, to most magicians, what is the best one? It is often minor subtleties, developed over years, as MB did, that make something into an unprecedented miracle.

They don't curse at me or its equivalent through a historical rabbit hole. As I said, tons of people were doing it before Gallo put it on video without naming it. I developed a trick that made it to Tannen's first, with coins. Others waited, and copied it blatantly without crediting me.

The historical rabbit hole is useful. But sometimes certain subtleties often propel something good into the miracle category. That is precisely what Marion Boykin has done with his high and active finger palm. You can call it what you want. But it just shows that you haven't used it, if you don't appreciate it. Because if you perform for magicians they will oooooo and aaahhhh continuously over a regular finger palm. Because they have been trained to. But spectators see that it is impossible for a magician to be hiding a coin in an MB Palm, when it is being hidden.

I am merely asking for common sense. If we can refer to something generally recognized as great and appearing miraculous, even when you know how it is done, in card magic, it is high time we were able to do so in coin magic. Because becoming insecure and trying to control your own historical black hole has more to do with black art than what is truly making magic great. IMHO. It might be more about insecurity and control issues than with being ABLE to give proper credit to something that is a slight twist but a miraculous variant of what preceded it. Kudos to you MB.

IN the recent past, I did the karate coin. But hid the xtra in MB's high and active FP. I was surrounded and had people swear there was no other coin. IN a sense, the miracle happened to them, and to me. the first time I could use the FP and have people KNOW SOMETHING COULD NOT BE THERE AT ALL. Thanks MB.
funsway
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Thanks for that, county, especially as it cast a new light on comment of doc's above: "incorrect credits because the author failed to do the work to figure out who came up with what."

Certainly, a person publishing should be carful about claiming something as their own without SOME research as to other things published - but that can never point to "who came up with" the idea or innovation. It is often suggested that one should ask experienced folks, but that opens another can of worms. The "perspective" of a sleight's effectiveness can bias an opinion of copy vs innovation.
For example (in keeping with 'great production theme') I have technique I call "Naked" because the hands never close and the coin(s) are visible on the open fingers. In one sequence a copper and a silver coin are lying on the right fingers. The copper coin is taken away leaving the silver just sitting there alone. The copper is in the left finger tips with the other fingers spread. The left hand suddenly goes flat and open and the coin is gone. Everyone glances at the open right hand and both coins are there side by side. I consider this "great" because the right hand never closes or moves. There is no "palming" involved in either hand (some later sequences do).

Now, I sent this effect description to several notable coin workers for comments, seeking mostly ideas of how this technique might fit in with popular coin effects. One said he did not try it as it was obviously impossible and I wasn't providing the full description of methods used. Another said that I was required to credit the palming methods used. ???? There are none, but apparently the idea of "credit" and "acknowledge source of inspiration" is so strong in coin magic that some cannot deal with anything new. Are they afraid to perform anything not published by a famous person?

In truth, I developed this from exploring the limitations and weird finger positions of many popular palming methods. As I rejected all of the sleights that I knew, I was left with the notion that the ideal method would have the hand flat and open with fingers spread throughout. Naked is a "no palming" solution. So, must I credit every palming method rejected? This is not to say this is a perfect sleight -- it can only work under what I call "proximal setting." My point is that this whole "must do the work to find the history, etc." might be stifling the creation of new sleights, and certainly the publishing of same. I have dozens of sleights and unique handlings that I will never publish BECAUSE I have better things to do than research every book ever written and then still be attacked by someone who sees some similarity. I also do not have the money to buy all those books, biased perhaps by a suspicion that "publishing credit" has more to do with "who gets paid" than originality.

I do no think I am alone in this. Over past decades I have known several magicians with unique methods who will never publish with a "why bother" attitude. Then there is the collateral problem of "ain't you got no video?" that kills the release of many innovative sleights. Oh, well.

It is GREAT that many on this thread have posted ideas that might seed inspiration. Develop your own special ways of doing things without fear of having to know the right name or checking publishing dates. Just do it. The problem only comes in if you want to sell the idea. Then someone's ox is always going to get gored. Sad.

By the way, my appreciation of Mb and Tim Feher is not from any sleight or effect they did or did not create. They both encouraged me to stick with coin magic after my hand disabilities made it impossible to do most of what I "usta could" - sleights with the names of famous people on them. I can, however, manage that palming method using only my partially curled ring finger, and don't care what it is called. I thank Mb for showing it to me. I now have several techniques that use that "somebody else maybe did it first" sleight. I am happy to credit Mb for the help. What else really matters?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
magicfish
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Countrymaven wrote:

"In the end, the true originators and creators are those who take something and make a miracle out of it..."
"...In other words, let the ones who created a miracle be able to have it named after them"

This is wrong, careless, reckless, and disrespectful. And is all the more reason we need the efforts of ethical magicians to combat this type of neglect and irresponsibility in the art.
Michael Rubinstein
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Just when I thought I was out, you pulled me back in. Funsway, I tried to steer the topic back to productions as you complained about, but alas, we are back. Countrymaven, I am sorry, but you are simply WRONG. Just because you like something, you can not assign it an arbitrary name. If you tried to publish your name as a position in a routine saying this belongs to Marion because I like the way he does it, you would be roasted by the profession, which tries hard to keep the history accurate. Have you EVER seen Liwag, Gallo, or Pedrahita use the position? HAVE YOU?? You said, and I quote, "As I said, tons of people were doing it before Gallo put it on video without naming it." Really, and you know this HOW?? WHO?? Go ahead, tell me who they all were. You, know? I did it in 1965. Magicalaurie used it in 1964. Ed Marlo used it in 1955. Dai Vernon used it in 1941. Downs used it in 1901. NOT!!!Here's the plain truth. THERE WOULD BE NO PROOF, ONLY HERESAY, UNLESS THEY PUBLISHED OR DEMONSTRATED IT. It doesn't matter if the first person (Gallo) or anyone else didn't assign it a name. If they put it into print before anyone, it is theirs. And you have no idea what else Gallo uses it for, or Liwag, or Pedrahita, because you don't know all of their magic. And that's a fact, Jack!! Hey, here is a picture from Pedrahita 's book at the end of this post. A photo from a book in 2011, that probably took years to write, and longer to develop the material in the book, as this is his first major pubblication with his favorite material.
Bottom line is that you are entitled to an OPINION, but you can't change the facts or history, and you are beating a dead horse. Marion has contributed nothing to the position other than performing it. I bet that You can't even explain this statement that you made: " It is often minor subtleties, developed over years, as MB did, that make something into an unprecedented miracle." Really, tell us all what subtleties has Marion contributed??? The position is a finger palm with one finger extended, and the other finger pulled back, to make the hand look more open. THAT IS THE SUBTLETY that makes it a VARIATION of finger palm. THERE IS NO OTHER MODIFICATION. This is what all the other guys I mentioned do. But because you are unaware of their magic and like Marion's video's, you want to tell the magic world to call it the Marion such and such?? NO NO NO NO NO. Did you ever see Latta do the pass? You can't because it was invisible. But he wasn't claiming credit because he did it well.
This whole topic is ridiculous and frustrating. Here is a photo from Pedrahita's book. I would take a screen shot of Gallo from his dvd off the TV if I wanted to waste more time on this. But I don't. I am done here.
Apparently I can't post a picture that is too big, so here is an instagram link to the photo:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CNKkQFmsYae/?igshid=r4y6crllnjo8
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
funsway
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Frustrating, yes - ridiculous is a matter of opinion. Doc, you keep repeating your "opinions" over and over while never addressing some key issues.

One is equating "first published" with "create." For you "proof" seems to be important, and that means "for you" seeing it in a published book or DVD.

For me, if I saw and sleight performed a decade before someone published it, that is "proof" for me that the person later claiming originality is "wrong, careless, reckless, and disrespectful - unethical."

If I created (for me) a sleight in 1985, the fact that somebody publishes that sleight in a book in 2000 is not proof that I did not create it. Neither does it prove they stole it.
They probably did not know of my creation and came up with it independently, or stole it from someone else. Publication only proves they published it first. Not the same thing at all.

In fairness, many who publish a sleight/move under their name do not claim originality, or as you have noted, make any claim at all - they just do it.

So, I respect your "opinion" that first published is an important proof "for you." For me, not so much. That does not make me "wrong."

I am NOT championing Mb's use of this sleight or the claims of others about its naming.
My ability to use it does not depend on knowing who did it first or why they did.

In my writings I do say, " a palming subtlety I learned from Mb." That is true. Am I supposed to lie just to satisfy you or 'fish'?

Am I prevented from using it unless I purchase your book? Not!

Am I prevented from creating new magic effects using this palming method because I don't use your approved name? Never!

I salute ALL who have done things that inspire my creativity and appreciation of good magic. I don't have to "take sides."

but, my views are ridiculous. So be it.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Michael Rubinstein
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Sigh. Ok Funsway. You want facts. Here are facts. You can argue opinion, but you can't dispute the facts.
1. Gallo was the first to document his use by showing a video of that modified finger palm position (1996).It's use is clear and beyond dispute. His manuscript was released in 1989, but there was only an unclear illustration of the same position.
2. Kohler in a 2006 Magic Café post states that he, Liwag, and Gallo independently used that modification in the mid 80s. I have no reason to doubt Bob, and talked to him about it. Gallo remembers that his use predates both Liwag and Kohler. So there is only verbal he said he said.
3. Liwag made a video of his Melt Away vanish demonstrating the modified finger palm in Coin One in 2006. His use clearly demonstrates that even with no name, as Gallo, he found it to be a more deceptive position than regular finger palm, which is why he used it. His earlier publication of Three Coins and a Philipino, on which Coin One is based, had no mention of this modification (so it's use can not be verified by his publication at that time.
4. Luis Pedrahita also published this modification, giving it a name and uses, in 2011 in his beautiful book Coins and other Fables.You can see a photo I took from his book on my instagram (link was provided).
The position in question, is ONLY a finger modification.
5. Marion learned it from seeing Liwag. He gave it a name (The Liwag Subtlety) since Liwag did not. He uses it a lot. Many have learned it from Marion. But he did not invent it, or create additional subtleties.
That is the record. Those are the facts. You can not dispute the facts.

Ok, now MY OPINION. Gallo, Liwag, and Pedrahita most likely independently created that modification. There may have been others, but it would only be their word with no documentation. People say all the time that they developed this or that, but talk is cheap, and unfortunately, even if it's true, it is just an allegation because there is no proof (and yes Funsway, if you care about self credit you need to put something into print. If not, there is no record, and if someone else publishes that before you, you are screwed. Your only option then is to complain (if you care about it enough), and it will only create unnecessary controversy and time needed to correct (such as Latta's French Pop which was published without permission and without credit to Latta by Chris Kenner (Latta taught it to Kenner), and it took years to correct the record. Or the prior mentioned examples of Tenkai Pinch and Malini Subtlety).
We have taken up way too much time discussing a small modification of a standard coin magic position. And yes, I am guilty as charged because I see people making inaccurate comments and choose to make sure the record is correct. I would argue that a third finger finger palm is probably a more important modification of finger palm (and I don't think we will ever find the first time someone used it). Most magicians today use that (third finger finger palm) over the standard low and high finger palm demonstrated and taught in Bobo, and in older literature. Marion uses the Gallo modification, that he learned from watching Homer Liwag, and named it the Liwag Subtlety because as far as he knew, it was a novel modification.
Others likely use it as well, whether they learned it from somewhere or just do it on their own. But Marion did no other subtle modifications that make it different than the three guys who I already mentioned had displayed their use of this modification in print or on video. In fact, he did nothing other than perhaps make it more accessible to people like you who had (perhaps) not seen it previously, or saw it used and were fooled by it so they weren't aware of it's use, or who knew about it and did not appreciate it enough at the time to get excited over it.
There is nothing more for me to say. If you disagree, go ahead. It is only your opinion, and not fact. The facts that I mentioned can not be disputed. And I think this has already been opinioned to death. Mic drop.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
funsway
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I didn't ask for any "facts" about this case or sleight. I asked about the "fact" of creativity as it relates to publishing. You have continuously intermixed "first published" with "create" -
it is that idea that I disagree with. You finally might be understanding my opinion with -- " yes Funsway, if you care about self credit you need to put something into print."

I don't. I feel many others do care not also. I am interested in seeing my creations performed correctly, and seeing the general quality of performance magic improve.
Seeing my name in print is NOT a motivation for anything. I have given tens of thousands of presentations of magic effects and never charged a dime.
I give away hundreds of eBooks every year at no-charge. I have 'funsway' on most as it is not a name.

I am now releasing some effects/routines for publication with proceeds going to my new wildlife sanctuary.
I give credit for creativity if I know of it. I give credit for publication even if I know that person did not create it as a source for the reader to pursue.
I have even written to performers asking permission to use their idea because I want to know the thinking behind the creation.
But, I have no obligation to spend years or dollars chasing down every possible alternative reference to an idea.

You may feel this weird. Probably, but it does not make me wrong either. I know when I created something in a non-derivative fashion, and you cannot take that away.
Publishing does not increase or decrease the creativity. If you want your name one of my sleights, just ask. I'll put "Rubinstein Pass" in my next eBook.

I have never disagreed with your statements about the many who have published or used this sleight before Mb. Yet you keep posting the same things.
I do feel that you ignore the popularity Mb brought to the use of this sleight. That is deserving of recognition aside from any claim of ownership.

We now see many posts about "great coin productions." Some use the subtlety under discussion. How many of those using it give thanks to Mb vs
how many give thanks to Gallo or Pedrahita? Yes, credit may be important. Why don't you give some? You sorta do above - great.

So, I am glad you will not post any more repetitions of that same stuff. No one is disagreeing with your history lesson, except that you don't mention Mb's publications
in 2007 and 2010. If you want a true history, why aren't those listed? Don' t you know of these? Didn't you do the research?

I also hope you stop claiming that publication means "created." and that you recognize that inspiring folks to use a sleight is just as important as the name on the box.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Michael Rubinstein
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Really? "So, I am glad you will not post any more repetitions of that same stuff. No one is disagreeing with your history lesson, except that you don't mention Mb's publications in 2007 and 2010. If you want a true history, why aren't those listed? Don't you know of these? Didn't you do the research?"

Actually, as stated AD NAUSEUM, I am the ONLY one who has done the research. Yeesh.
Those aren't listed because Marion did not CREATE the finger position. He learned it from Liwag, as I stated, and as HE has stated.
Feel free to publish with no credits.That seems to be your beef. Many people do that already. If you don't care, you don't care. I don't really care what you do either (I just think it's unprofessional, and many people who read that work will think that as well). But, as you may surmise, many other people also won't care. This is a society where people just want the latest stuff, and don't care about anything other then learning the next new thing, and don't give a rat's butt about who did what when.
Just don't use incorrect credits like countrymaven is trying to do (which is what brought me to this table, and from which I would really like to get up from and walk away).
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
funsway
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"Those aren't listed because Marion did not CREATE the finger position." No proof those others guys created it either.

"That seems to be your beef" NO - my beef is you confusing publication with creativity (as do many others).

You offer that it is your opinion "that most likely independently created that modification."
I do not see where any of them claimed to create it or where they got the inspiration to try something different.

maybe they did create it with no inspiration from another source. Maybe they saw someone else do it and tried it out. Maybe it was an accident that worked.
All we know is that they published something mentioning the subtlety, but that none seemed to think it very important.

I had already used it many times before I learned it from Mb as an actually treatment. I did it out of convenience or because of the shape of the object palmed.

Anyone who uses a finger palm a lot will have used only one finger. What is important for ALL of them is realizing what the audience sees that is different.
For me, the important part is that the perception of the audience changes when the other fingers seem free. Why isn't that as important as the name of the subtlety?

Oh, hum ...

I clearly stated that I do give credits - just not seeking credit for myself. Please do not misquote or misstate what I say. That is part of research too.

Actually, you should thank me for giving you so many opportunities to advertize your book Smile
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Ray Haining
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Michael, you know I have great respect for you and your work. We've always had a friendly relationship. I concur with you that as civilized, enlightened gentlemen, we can agree to disagree on this one topic. I too am passionate about my position, because I perceive an injustice here, an attempt to eradicate somebody from the historical record.

And forgive me if I pull no punches.

There are two issues here: crediting and naming. Crediting is for the purpose of history; naming is for the purpose of identification. Sometimes the two overlap, but sometimes not.

So set "the record straight" in your writings; trace the history of a move, a trick, an idea, trace it all the way back to whom you believe was the first person to use that move, trick, or idea, giving credit where you consider proper credit is due. That's all well and good. I'm a history buff myself. (Right now, I'm studying the early American Republic.) And yes, Michael, you have done a fantastic job of tracing the origins and history of a multitude of tricks and moves, and you are to be commended for that.

Naming things, however, is something different. Sometimes crediting and naming coincide (such as Einstein's theory of relativity). Sometimes the name of the first person to come up with an idea does not coincide with the naming of that idea. The world of science and technology is replete with such examples. (I gave you above the example of Aristarchus versus Copernicus.)

So, for instance, Michael, if you were a biologist and you insisted, vehemently, that Darwin's theory of evolution be called Wallace's theory of evolution because Alfred Russel Wallace was the first to formulate the idea, you'd be the laughingstock of the scientific community. (Some of your scientific colleagues might even try to have you committed.)

I admit the name "Liwag subtlety" is somewhat of a misnomer. If Marion had known about and been inspired by Gallo's work, he probably would have named the technique the "Gallo subtlety." But he didn't know of Gallo's work (who did?). He could have named it the "Boykin subtlety," but he is too modest a fellow to have done that.

Instead, he named it after the magician, Homer Liwag, who inspired him, not necessarily to give Liwag credit for being the first to use the technique, just to give the technique a name, something to identify it with, which, before Marion, nobody else had thought to do, because nobody else recognized the power and utility of this technique, not Gallo, not Kohler, not you yourself, Michael.

And if some people mistakenly think that because it's named after Liwag he was the first to use this technique--well, that's the way it goes. You know the saying: stuff (smelly stuff) happens. Better that than Marion Boykin be erased from the historical record.

Marion Boykin has been calling this technique the "Liwag subtlety" for 14 years. Put "liwag subtlety" into the Café search engine along with Marion's username Mb217. You'll come up with 58 entries going back to 2007 where he discusses and promotes the technique. From there, you can go to links of Marion performing and observe him using the technique. You can study it. You can learn from it. He does not just do it well. He's taken it to a whole other level, which you don't seem to get.

You can't turn around after 14 years and proclaim, "I, Michael Rubinstein, Master of the Realm, Lord of the Coin, do hereby proclaim--forthwith!--that from this time forward, Marion Boykin's Liwag subtlety will be called the 'Gallo whatever' because I have determined that Gallo was the first magician to use a similar technique." You can't do that. You don't have the authority to do that.

The hubris here is staggering. You're attempting to wipe out 14 years of history.

Try writing to Luis Piedrahita and tell him he must change his "Huddle palm" to the "Gallo whatever." How do you think he will reply?

You do something similar with the Tenkai pinch and Malini subtlety as well. The one should be called the "Tenkai/Goshman pinch" (I've seen it referred to this way many times), not just the "Tenkai pinch." Your approach obliterates decades of magical literature where the move was called the "Goshman pinch." People should know the two names refer to the same move. They may want to research the move.

You may object that that gives "equal billing" to Tenkai and Goshman. However, putting Tenkai's name first in "Tenkai/Goshman" should satisfy your criterion for crediting. The same goes for the Malini/Kaps subtlety.

Information and knowledge--isn't that what we strive for, to impart information and knowledge?

And so, Michael, give Gallo credit for being the first to use this technique. I'm all for that. (Although, as countrymaven points out above, can we know who was really the first to use this particular technique?) But the time to name it the "Gallo anything" has long since passed. The technique has a name. It's called the Liwag subtlety--named, developed, and used (to great effect, as you say) by Marion Boykin as documented here on the Magic Café.

Sometimes you just have to accept things the way they are and move on.

And yes, as Magicalaurie points out above, this is exhausting. I'm done with this.
Michael Rubinstein
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Well Ray, I thought I was done until your post. Since you have my book, you know that I present the history of the position and give credit for independent invention, using the names Liwag Subtlety and Huddle palm as well. You also know that I didn't invent a crazy name, just accurately described it. Gallo Modified finger palm says that it is a modified finger palm first used by Gallo, and I gave dates. What people do with that information is up to them. Just because Gallo didn't name it means squat. And I have just as much right to give a name as did Marion, given that I knew the history that Marion didn't (and I talked to Gallo first, unlike Marion who didn't contact Homer as I did as well). It is important when writing an important book to make sure the historical record is accurate.
And as a person who knows history, you should understand more than others that Bobo gave the Goshman pinch that name because Goshman didn't tell him that it was Tenkai's. When you write an important book and make a mistake like that, you create many problems, which has taken years to solve and give Tenkai the credit he deserves. So what if Goshman USED it. It wasn't his, it wasn't even a case of independent creation. Bobo could easily have tried to find out more about the clipped position, it was already in print. But he neglected his duty, assigned to him when he chose to recap the coin magic of his era. Same with Kaps using a subtlety that was taught to him by Vernon. He was well aware of whose it was. Someone else wrote that it should be called the Kaps subtlety, but Kaps never corrected that. So it is also on him. Luckily people who care about history were able to find proper references and set the record straight. I am sure Tenkai and Malini would have been happy that their work was finally recognized.
If you guys are fine with those mistakes,and want to continue to misname stuff, well that's on you. We should always try to get it right. By now everyone pretty much knows that Goshman did not come up with that position, so why do you continue to use his name? Nostalgia? I don't know, maybe you do.
So, what you have basically said is that Marion liked it, learned it, and ran with it giving Liwag credit. Fine. I have no problem with what Marion did, or how he uses that position. Good for him that he used it and talked about it for 58 entries. He still didn't develop it. It is not a move with applications. It is a POSITION, a variation of finger palm.
I had TWO problems, which is the ONLY REASON I have spent so much time here.
1. That countrymaven wants to rename a position because he likes Marion's work (he could easily have called it the Liwag subtlety and said Marion does it great and I wouldn't have said a word, because that is fine by me).
And
2. That Marion himself created a post on this thread with a recap of finger palm information where countrymaven touts the new name.
Sorry, that's where I stepped in.
This is a strange small group, this Café crowd. We all know each other by the way we post. So you guys should know me as a stand up guy. I took a year to write a book and tried to get the credits as accurate as possible, because when you write a book you need to be as accurate as you can, and hope that when people read it they will continue to be accurate. If I made any mistakes in the credits I used, it was not for lack of research as I used many books and many auxilliary sources. Bobo should have done that as well, and whether by intentional mistake or by ignorance he did not (which is interesting because I believe Tenkai is also mentioned in Bobo). I am only responsible for what I can do. You all can do what you want, of that no one has control but yourselves. As I said, you can argue opinions, but you can't argue facts. Can I leave now?
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
gregg webb
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I came in somewhat late, I admit...but I'll say this about magic. You should only wait long enough for someone to even think "it is in the other hand" before you make a duplicate re-appear somewhere. The tempo is pretty fast for today. And I mean whatever grip you use. Don't wait long. And the next big thing I notice, a lot of guys don't simulate that they hold something in their hand when nothing is there...and the audience doesn't believe the coin is "there" because the magician in question isn't acting out the idea of holding something well enough.
gregg webb
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P.s. I just noticed the actual topic. How about Pop Outs. This production was popular briefly then went out of favor pretty quickly. Why not bring it back ?
Jonathan Townsend
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Impressive feat. Even more impressive when you know the mechanics. Catching a fly in mid-air - or in this case catching it under your finger.

A simple FP production seems to register more when they get a sense of where you are looking before you pluck a coin into visibility. The clank from the bucket in your other hand helps immensely after the first production; so the effect can build.

A different approach is to find coins. The Vernon "Free and Unlimited Coinage of Silver" has coins found under things you pick up and then one inside a dinner roll. The audience knows you are doing it but they are more about where the next coin will be than how you got it there. Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
gregg webb
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True, but why did Pop-outs go out of favor so fast. I saw Geof Latta do it. He was the only one. I'm going to work on it.
Michael Rubinstein
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The only problem with Pop Outs, is that if you don't hit it, it doesn't look good. If you do hit it, however, it looks very magical. I wonder if anyone did it onto an open palm?
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
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