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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Great coin productions? (29 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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countrymaven
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You can try to control your own subjective historical argument of how a sleight was developed. I have all those resources and more, by the way. I was aware of those. But it is different to propose that the subtleties, even small ones, made MB's High and Active FP into a miracle. I don't care about someone's subjective historical arguments. I had some big names steal one of my tricks, which was published, with no credits. So the historical pretexts about a universal move used since Adam fell off his dinosaur, do not apply so well.
I have, as others do, the freedom to speak of what is best, what has worked as miraculous. And sorry to say, MB's finger palm, high and active is what did it. In card magic, we can speak of a type of palm that we consider miraculous. Who cares what subjective pseudo historical accounts you have aligned. For a universal move used since the beginning of coin magic, it is a bit naive to think that you can apply these subjective arguments here. Again I have these resources. But I am most concerned with the most valuable thing in magic: a move that is transformed into a miracle. And for me, in my experience, MB's subtleties are unsurpassed; if you can't see them or perceive them, then fine. You probably are doing coin puzzles and not miracles. However, I can attest to seeing MB's moves, after seeing all the other resources, and being blown away. Then performing it and seeing a miracle occur. And any other style of FP would NOT HAVE accomplished this surrounded. So go ahead, and make your own historical argument. But I am not talking about that, I am just giving credit to MB for raising the bar on this. Others are free to express this in other fields of magic. It would be somewhat asinine to think that we could not express these opinions, based on much experience, in coin magic as well.
Michael Rubinstein
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1. The history of the use of that finger position as I outlined it is fact, not subjective.
2. The position in question is a finger palm variation, and NOT a MOVE.
3.You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else. And all you have done is state opinions.
4. There is nothing new to say. Do we STILL need to talk about this?
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
funsway
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For me, the 'history' of a move, sleight or even subtlety should look to the use of that "method" as much as the claimed or assumed origin or source.

Publish date can be important for claims of payment in a legal sense, but says nothing about creation or source of inspiration.
Knowledge of a creator of a Method can be useful if one want to explore the thinking behind the innovation or wish to learn of other creations.

So, we can look to the useful concealment of a coin behind the lower joint of two fingers (ring and middle) as a source of inspiration.

Jean Hugard's book 'Coin Magic' in the 30's makes references to this Palming Method several times (pps. 20, 45, 52, 55, 81, etc.)
Yet he does not describe it in detail as he does other Methods. One might 'assume' that it is such a common handling that it is not worth calling by name.
There is no distinction between which finger is actually holding the coin, but reference to the empty palm being shown as a great deception. Maybe he used only one finger for the hold.

Regardless, to my knowledge, none of those later publishing their version of the Method give credit for the inspiration. (Ramsey, Malini, Kapps and more)
Now we are enchanted by some fine variations of a "finger palm" that wasn't even worth naming back when.

What are called 'variations' or "subtleties" might be considered as innovations, but not "created by." Publishing date does not help there except o show that they DID NOT give credit.

So, Doc - we STILL NEED TO TALK about the concept of history, creativity and first published since your statement above:

"The history of the use of that finger position as I outlined it is fact, not subjective." is incomplete and incorrect.

It is VERY subjective to your particular view of the importance of publishing. It is not FACT. To me they are just your opinions too. (Valued, but still just an opinion)

If we look at the HISTORY of the latest variations and uses that prompted this discussion, then both Hugard and Mb must be mentioned.
The first as the possible source of inspiration, and the second for making the USE of these variations popular.
In between, others might be mentioned too for contribution to the practical uses of the concealing a coin (small object) with your lower fingers.

Of interest to me, what was the first time the term "finger palm" was used/published to describe the most common method of concealing a coin?
Does that published guy mention Hugard or other earlier source?

As I posted above, I feel that any person fiddling with a coin and attempting to conceal it will "innovate" a lower finger palm.
They do not have to read of it, copy it or see a video of it. I feel that is why Hugard did not even name it. It is a natural handling.

For example, my guitar playing wife always holds a guitar pick in finger palm when not needed. No one taught her, she does it --
so well that I did not even catch what she was doing for years. She just had a pick when she need one and "gone" when she did not.
Does she use one finger or two? How does she get the pick from "Gallo Variation" to fingertips and back? I don't know. She is not magician.
She just does what is necessary to achieve an objective - to have a pick instantly available in hand when she needs one.
She did not even realize that the pick was concealed as he played the guitar with fingers free. It is a natural handling.

I am not saying, Doc, that you have to include her name in any updated history of "finger palm variations."
But, it is FACT that she does this and proves the effectiveness of the palming method/position and freeness of fingers.

Now, within the context of this thread, is the use of finger palm or one of many variations useful in achieving a "great coin production?"
Yes and no. It is great for 'concealing' a coin and therefor in engendering a sense of "impossible." It is nor great for an easy release of the coin for a production,
or for many of the fake or false place to take moves that accompany a "great productions' - and the acquitments.

It that not as important as any history of the move/position/sleight/variation?

Certainly more that "credit" or "providence" - or even "history."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Michael Rubinstein
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ARRRGGGHH. For someone who lamented that this thread has gone off topic, you keep going there. So, yes. Finger palm has been referenced in the magical literature since Discoverie of Witchcraft in the 1500s. If you care to go to conjuringarchive.com, and type in "finger palm", there are a plethora of references to that way of hiding a coin, from the 1900s, 1800s, and prior. Hugard did not publish the first book that describes finger palm, so why even make mention? It is irrelevant. It is established that finger palm has been used for hundreds of years, with variations like high finger palm, low finger palm, and third finger finger palm. It would be very difficult to trace the origins of those variations through the magical literature. But this one? Well, we have documentation.
Further, you state after quoting me,
"The history of the use of that finger position as I outlined it is fact, not subjective." is incomplete and incorrect."
No. My statement is true. You can make ASSUMPTIONS, but you can't change fact. By your statement you are asserting that PERHAPS many others played around with that position. MAYBE Hugard did it. MAYBE Downs did it. MAYBE 1000 other magicians did it as they played with finger palm. Yes, MAYBE. But when you ASSUME, you make an A.. out of U AND ME (Great line by Tony Randall on The Odd Couple). You can make a million assertions or assumptions, or use whatever logic, but until you can establish that as FACT, it means nothing other than a point of view.
The funny thing is that JUST BECAUSE you guys were introduced to that position by Marion, who named that position after the person he learned it from (FACT), you seem to feel that he should get credit for more than giving it a name. He should get credit for using it (although you have also made claim in this thread of Marion's innovations, yet fail to document one innovation). But let me ask, have you seen the other people use it? Homer told me he uses it all the time. Gallo tells me he uses it as well. Pedrahita published his own routines with its use. FACT that they demonstrated it's use MEANS that they felt it was a more open hand position. It is IRRELEVANT that YOU have haven't seen how they use it for real people, or WHEN they decide to use it over a "standard" finger palm. Most people who have watched them perform won't even know that they used it. They probably wouldn't even know that they used ANY kind of finger palm. You keep talking about how Marion has popularized this, and want him to get credit for making it so popular. Again, subjective. Popular on the Magic Café, sure. You, Countrymaven, and Ray Haining all learned it from Marion. Others as well. Marion makes a bunch of videos and downloads. I am sure he has been successful at marketing them here on the Magic Café, and why not. He is a nice guy, very personable, and a good magician to boot.
I honored Marion's contribution by putting the name he coined, "The Liwag Subtlety" into my book, citing independent invention by Liwag. Marion himself on another thread stated that he was happy that the name he coined had been used by others, and was happy to show others this position. He said," I certainly did not make it, no more than men make diamonds, but glad to have in some way shined a more intentional light upon it in this rough as to its greater usage & value. 🎩"
Danny Goldsmith puts out a bunch of downloads and videos. He doesn't do it on the Magic Café, but he is quite prominent on social media and places like Ellusionist, and more. He uses Downs palm in a lot of his work. He does it very well. He does very nice retention work where a coin gets transferred into that position. He uses that position for coin changes and productions. Magician A may not have been aware of Downs palm until they saw Danny's download. It might have been a revelation for him. He might have gone on coin magic forums to argue that because Danny does it so well, his hand absolutely looks empty when he uses it, no one else does it as good as Danny (from someone who has not seen anyone use Downs palm before) and has made all these great innovations (not true, because Downs palm is Downs palm no matter what you do with it), that it should be called the Goldsmith Subtlety. Others who never used Downs palm before might even agree, and go on the Magic Café and talk about this great "move", the Goldsmith Subtlety.
You guys going on here and stating that because Marion does it well, he should have the position named after him, is like Magician A going on Facebook and making a similar assertion.

Oh, one more thing about credits that no one seems to care about. I brought this up in the past. Dingle put out a book, where he revealed the Dingle Pickup move. It would have been attributed forever to Dingle, until people in the know started to whisper that it was Al Schneider's. Someone (I think Kaufman) called it the Dingle- Schneider pick up move, thinking independent invention because Dingle claimed invention. However, it turned out that Al Schneider taught it to Dingle. Yep, and Dingle (probably purposely, although he was an alcoholic and may not have remembered) claimed it as his own. It took years for Al Schneider to establish that he came up with it first (and yes, he was able to prove it. If you want to know how, the story is out there, do the work and find it). Luckily this didn't happen on the Café, because maybe then Al would never get his proper credit and you guys would argue that history means nothing and Dingle popularized the move, so why even mention Al?
How long are you guys going to argue in circles? I am leaving this thread now, because I realize that by answering I am enabling you.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
funsway
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Yes, you do round and round. You are the one that now introduced "history" rather than credits or creativity.

You statement is NOT historically correct. FACT!

What is this "you guys" stuff? There is no conspiracy here, Doc, just some seeking clarity and accuracy.

You say, "You guys going on here and stating that because Marion does it well, he should have the position named after him."

Nope - never said that, never though that. My statements are very clear. No reason to misquote and create a 'straw man."

And no, I did not learn this from Marion. Another wrong statement. He just put a name on something I had done for decades.

I don't know about those others. I did not "learn it" anywhere.
It just developed naturally from coin and small object handling decades before the Café, reading Bobo, Mb and you.
I did learn about finger palming without a name for Hugard back about 1960. That is part of my history. Those "other guys" are not.

But, I don't want credit or recognition, but do wish to be accurate in my writing of magic effects.

Your shuffling and waffling of terms and false statements does not help me be more accurate.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
NicholasD25
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Getting back to productions, Bertini's four coin production from edge grip is a thing of beauty.
funsway
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A side note for those who like to pluck coins from the air. With the coin is some variation of finger palm, turn the hand over
so that the coin rests on the tip of the thumb. Open the entire hand with fingers spread as you "search" for coin in the air by moving the hand about.
Since the coin is edge on to the audience and your hand is moving the coin is not seen. (and eye contact is with a point in the air)

At the perfect moment you just rotate your hand a bit and pull back to pluck the coin with thumb and fingertip with flash too.

This also creates great expectations with a hand wide and ready of gobble something.

I call this technique "Thumbgrab" and have done it for about 50 years.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
NicholasD25
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Will Houston has some good tips on the finger palm production on his Modern Magic DVD set.
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On Apr 9, 2021, NicholasD25 wrote:
Getting back to productions, Bertini's four coin production from edge grip is a thing of beauty.


Indeed! Smile Smile Smile Smile
Jonathan Townsend
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+1 for Bertini producing coins. Also recently Clement Di Natale shows some impressive coin productions on his "new old ideas" video.

The July 2000 issue of Genii Magazine includes a discussion of a coin production used by l'Homme Masque.

Back on topic, how about that Teller routine using the fishtank? Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Ray Haining
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Paul Harris has a production of four coins as the first trick in his "Monster Coin Routine." I don't know whether the OP was interested only in bare-hand productions of coins, but if you don't mind mixing cards with coins, this is a good one.

I searched the Internet for a video of Paul Harris performing this trick, which is called "Silver Slide," as performed on the Stars of Magic DVDs, disk 1. I wasn't able to find it. I found a video where it is performed by Cassan Wallace. In the Paul Harris performance, he first slides out four cards, two in each hand, as in the Wallace video (but in the Wallace video his left hand goes out of camera). He states he is going to do a version of the three-shell game with four cards. On the Wallace video, there is no talking (and the music is, to my ear, annoying).

Harris takes out a coin from his pocket (in the Wallace video, it is already on the table) and states that the idea is to locate the coin under the proper card. All the moves from here on in are the same in both videos, but in the Harris performance the actions are motivated by the patter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEP0rPPh7XY

I also found in a little booklet, The Magic of Paul Harris, by Jerry Mentzer, a trick titled "Silver and Aces," the effect of which is the spectator cuts a deck into four piles. Miraculously, on top of each pile is an ace. The aces are slid off the piles onto the table. Then the aces are slid aside and there is a coin under each ace.

In looking around the Internet, I came across the following, which in the beginning has a nice production of four coins. (The rest of the routine is beautiful, if you want to keep watching.) I think Michael Ammar does something similar on one of his videos--where I'm not sure. I could be wrong about this. I believe, however, I've seen it somewhere else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oONYoGZl7ng

Incidentally, in my search I came across a performance of Paul Harris at the Magic Palace in Canada. I had forgotten how hilariously funny could be!
Ray Haining
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... funny he could be!
Michael Rubinstein
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Dan Fleshmen has a nice rollover production of 4 coins from a card in his book Coin Miraxles, and on his Restaurant Magic col. 3 DVD. Both Aurelio Paviato of Italy (used in his FISM winning act in 1982) and Jean Pierre Vallerino of France have published productions where a half dollar appears under each of 4 cards. Paviato does it as the opening effect here:
https://youtu.be/6xDeoy-0ZtU
Here is Jean Pierre Vallerino producing 4 coins from one card (similar to Fleshman):
https://youtu.be/g4zWFspuyj8
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
gregg webb
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I'm working on Pop-Outs now. Hey, also Roth's production from the purse frame.
NicholasD25
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Just an aside. While working on pop outs from finger palm, I hit upon the idea of doing it with a playing card. I usually top palm the card, then just let it drop out of palm and quickly catch it with first finger and thumb. If done smartly, it looks pretty good.
gregg webb
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I was doing something like that out of backpalm with a card. First I'd let go with pinkie so the card was like backclipped between 1st and 2nd, and then I'd drop my hand as I released the card and catch it as it fell. Hard to explain but the concept sounds similar but from front palm. Back to the coin and Pop-outs, someone was doing it into between the fingers of the left hand. Cardini had a move like that with a billiard ball in his early days when he did more billiard ball stuff.
Nev Blenk
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I love popouts. I often use it during an 'out with 5' routine.
On the subject of Vallerino, I think Kaufman is currently writing a book on his magic.
gregg webb
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I'm glad to hear this.
Michael Rubinstein
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Jean Pierre is a wonderful magician, and a great guy to boot. I stayed with him years ago when I did a lecture in Nice. Glad to hear that his stuff is coming out in a book.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
gregg webb
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Was thinking of "The Flurry".
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