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xtreme_mixers New user 92 Posts |
I think you should try what Derren Brown does at the start of his shows.
" In tonights performances everything I do does not have any spiritual ground it is simply psycological illusion ad influence I myself don't belive in psychics and mediums what I do is pure and simple psycolgical illusion." GB Xtreme
Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-12-15 12:18, "V" wrote: From the New American Standard translation of the Bible: Leviticus 20:27 "'Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.' " But then again, also from Leviticus: Leviticus 25 "As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property." I hope this isn't too far OT (that's "off topic," not "Old Testament.") |
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Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
While Bible passages condemn speaking with spirits, putting children through fire, dowsing, astrology and reading animal entrails, other passages speak in a positive way of casting lots (the lots in the priest's ephod; Joshua's holy bones; the apostles tossing dice to see who Christ wanted to replace Judas), palmistry, scrying (provided these are done prayerfully via the Holy Spirit) and prophetic dreams and visions.
Christians interpret all of this, as they do all scripture, subjectively. Some take the "stay away from everything" approach. Others consider the validity of 'Biblically-sanctioned' forms of divination. It boils down to the interpretation and call of each individual or denomination. My family on both sides (more strongly on my father's side) have had an apparent streak of spontaneous precognition and clairvoyance going back several generations. Some of my paternal ancestors were travelling preachers who took this odd (and sometimes annoying) phenomenon as simply 'a gift from God,' and didn't worry about it. Steve (who is putting on his steel army surplus helmet to prepare for the inevitable hail of stones)
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
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BroDavid Inner circle America’s North Coast, Ohio 3176 Posts |
Because I don't want to see this thread change to a purely theological discussion, to those who will take a verse meant in a specific Old Testament context, and present it for today, I will only say this; Hermeneutics
I beleive it all comes down to how you present any illusion; mental or physical. If you are a Christian and pretend that you have just done "Magik", using special powers, then I think you are off base. Does this mean that if God gives (And it is in His power to give anything He wishes, unless He has stated that He would not. For example it is in God's power to flood the earth again. But His promise - evidenced by the rainbow - says he won't do it again.) someone a special gift, that they should deny that gift? No. Not at all. But give credit where credit is due, as all good things come from God. Tricks and illusions are just that. Tricks and illusion! But God can use them as He has used many "slow of tongue" preacher/techer/leaders (Moses) in the past. I don't think that you have to claim anything as a being the result of a "special power" to get a dramatic audience response. It is too easy to fool people. And you can easily fool them after you tell that you will fool them. And people enjoy being fooled. BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
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On 2004-08-11 11:33, BroDavid wrote: I think that people like surprises and mystery and entertainment. Perhaps that is what you meant by "fooled." I would disagree that people like being fooled, or made a fool of. People don't like to feel unintelligent, thoughtless or ridiculous. Sorry to get a little semantics on you there. - Donald.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Exactly, BroDavid; tricks and illusions are just that, and should not be sold as more than that. Used for what they are, they are excellent tools to illustrate a point.
Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
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BroDavid Inner circle America’s North Coast, Ohio 3176 Posts |
Donald,
In this politically correct world, perhaps my use of the word "fooled" should have been carefully qualified. Or maybe not... But you are exactly right. I could have said it in many words; that people enjoy "the mystery and surprise of magic", I delivered in fewer words, they enjoy "being fooled". You are also right in that I do not believe that people like being played for a fool, or made into a fool, or accused of being fools. But I hold fast to the belief that they enjoy being fooled. That is an entirely different thing. Thanks for removing any confusion on my use of the term. BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
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DrBob New user 50 Posts |
As a psychologist I always start by first explaining how the mind can be "tricked" into seeing things that are not real.
Then I explain that when we see these things (like what I perform for them) happen in front of our eyes, they seem "magical", and that's why magicians never reveal how a trick is done, because if we did, we would be taking the "magical" feeling they get, away from them. With that, I then explain that what I'm doing is a demonstration of this principal (how easily we can see things that are not there), and build a message around that. The message can be such things as, "not being frightened by the challenges that come against use, they are not always real", "things are not always as they seem", "God is bigger than anything that can come against us", etc. |
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Necromancer Inner circle Chicago 3076 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-08-08 16:51, lowphat wrote: Hello, I have never visited this forum before -- not surprising, given that I'm a Jew. But I'm also a mentalist and bizarre magician, and I've got to express some alarm that mentalism is being presented as "just a trick" in certain circles. I suggest that the most powerful dramatic charge that an audience feels upon experiencing a strong magic/mentalism performance does not come specifically from being fooled by this effect or that. It comes from NOT KNOWING how to categorize what they have seen, and having to wrestle with their internal reality monitors. Was it a display of psychic phenomena or merely clever trickery? That's the internal debate a mentalist wishes to fuel in his audience, and I for one would never attempt to rob my audience of such stimulation. Furthermore, it's my personal opinion that when you hand your audience members the answer on a silver platter, you show them a certain lack of intellectual respect. Good mentalism must be ambiguious. Otherwise, it is self-confessedly "just tricks" -- in other words, an easily dismissed diversion; but perform mentalism ambiguiously and your audience members can't dismiss it easily. They mull it over and wrestle with its implications for hours, days, and weeks afterward. As a performer with a message, wouldn't you find that preferable to being shrugged off a few moments after the curtain falls? I hope this provides you with a helpful perspective. Best, Neil
Creator of The Xpert (20 PAGES of reviews!), Cut & Color, Hands-Off Multiple ESP (HOME) System, Rider-Waite Readers book, Zoom Pendulum ebook ...
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cpatchett Veteran user My current prediction is that I have 337 Posts |
Hey Neil, thanks for visiting. The argument you present, while perfectly valid in any other performance context, overlooks the fact that ambiguity as to the source of the effect in a Gospel peformance context competes with or negates the message.
As a peformer with a message, I would prefer that my performance be completely shrugged off after (or even before) the curtain falls and only the message remain. Craig
Magician: Someone willing to spend $15 to learn how to make $1 disappear.
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Necromancer Inner circle Chicago 3076 Posts |
Quote:
As a peformer with a message, I would prefer that my performance be completely shrugged off after (or even before) the curtain falls and only the message remain. Presuming that the message does, in fact, remain. Just my two cents, Craig, but I contend that the real world isn't a black-and-white place, and that ambiguity could be a valuable tool even to performers working within message-oriented contexts. Best, Neil
Creator of The Xpert (20 PAGES of reviews!), Cut & Color, Hands-Off Multiple ESP (HOME) System, Rider-Waite Readers book, Zoom Pendulum ebook ...
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cpatchett Veteran user My current prediction is that I have 337 Posts |
Quote: OK, fair enough. How then would you address the issue of ambiguity in this particular context, given the following:
On 2004-08-18 20:26, Necromancer wrote: 1. Your primary intention should be to draw attention to God, not to yourself. 2. Leaving the audience with the impression that you are in possession of mysterious powers, however ambiguous, is not beneficial to your message. 3. You are representing a God with real power, and to allude to your own fakery as being real runs the risk of bringing G-d's power into question in the minds of the audience. This may not be a black and white world, but God leaves no gray areas when it comes to someone speaking for Him attributing a source of power to himself, even (or especially) in the Torah. (Look at why, for example, Moses wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.) So in light of all this, how (and I'm asking in earnest) would you address this concerns while still maintaining a sense of ambiguity? Craig
Magician: Someone willing to spend $15 to learn how to make $1 disappear.
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Necromancer Inner circle Chicago 3076 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-08-19 01:08, cpatchett wrote: Hi Craig, Well. that's a tall order! Please keep in mind that I'm a visitor to these parts. But to my outsider's eyes, some of your presumptions about the performance conditions seems, well, presumptious to me. Let me try to address your points in order. 1. I absolutely agree that your primary intention should be to draw attention to God, not to yourself. However, I don't think that it's an excuse to be a weak performer. God is depending on you to give the strongest, most persuasive presentation you can give, right? And to make that presentation visceral, engaging, and memorable for your audience, you are using magical techniques. That's your decision, so commit to it. This isn't silly kid's stuff that's inconsequential (because if it is, why should your audience care?). Mystery used with care and reverence is an incredibly powerful communication tool -- but the moment you undercut its power by making excuses for it or downplaying it, you become a less effective communicator and messenger of God. (At least, that's my contention.) Incidentally, if you're a working gospel magician with a show that travels and is marketed to several congregations, you had better be able to draw attention to yourself AND to God; that is, if you wish anybody to hire you. 2. You state that in the context of your performance conditions, leaving the audience with the ambigious impression that you may or may not possess mysterious powers is not beneficial to your message. But I'm not sure I understand that. You are not standing in front of a congregation for the purposes of displaying your awesome and godlike powers so that all may worship you (and neither am I). You have a job to do: to communicate a message. If your magical/mental demonstrations lend powerful support to your message and allow you to make it vivid and memorable for your audience, then your work is done. No disclaimers or apologetic posturing is needed. You're there to communicate, not to apologize. Furthermore (as I've expressed earlier), if your audience continues to speculate about the natural or supernatural nature of your show, then your message merely has that much more staying power. That strikes me as not only meeting your communication goals, but exceeding them. 3. Of course you're representing a God with real power. But I fail to see how a performer can instill greater faith in God by presenting magical/mental feats weakly as trickery; neither do I agree that if a good performer's feats are later exposed as trickery, his audience's faith in God will tumble like a house of cards. Faith is built of stronger stuff than this. Also, remember that everything is a matter of degree. Your magic and mentalism should act largely as a mneumonic device for making your message memorable. When it starts to BECOME your message, you're no longer spreading God's word -- you're founding your own church. I trust that everybody here can perform powerfully without crossing that line. 4. Lastly, you state that God leaves no gray areas when it comes to "someone speaking for Him attributing a source of power to himself" (with Moses cited as an example). But that's abstract Bible analysis. Let's put it in practical magic-performance terms: do you think that any disclaimer can ever hope to outweigh a truly effective piece of magic in the eyes of every member of his audience? And if not, then do you think a performer must then expose an effect's workings so that nobody will think that he is exhibiting supernatural powers? Obviously, such a suggestion caters to the lowest denominator at the expense of providing wonder and mystery to the greater audience. So let's look at the big picture: You are speaking for God and spreading his message. You are not making any outright claim that you are a supernatural being, merely leaving an intriguing question in your audience's mind that makes your every word, action, and lesson far more powerful, dramatic, and ultimately memorable. Forgive me, but I fail to see the problem. I hope this perspective has been helpful to some. It's certainly been fun for me to think about. Best, Neil
Creator of The Xpert (20 PAGES of reviews!), Cut & Color, Hands-Off Multiple ESP (HOME) System, Rider-Waite Readers book, Zoom Pendulum ebook ...
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Neil, one thing that you are failing to see in all of this, is that within the Christian church, there are many people who are extremely cautious about displays of the "supernatural".
For some within the Christian church, even here in North America (where we are "supposedly" less superstitious), any magician or illusionist they see, they attribute to having supernatural powers. And rightly or wrongly, they lump them together with mediums, etc. And very frequently the origins of the powers are said to be from Satan, not God. This is less prevalent outside of the church. Most there seem to realise this is merely entertainment, and powers are not involved. I've had many conversations with pastors who felt that Copperfield or Blaine had supernatural powers, or they had members of their congregation who felt that way. Part of presentation styles is knowing your audience. To do a public show in a certain way in a certain part of Africa, will have a different impact than in Chicago. Same for doing a show in a church vs. outside a church. I had to work very hard to convince my mother-in-law's new husband (from Ghana) that I didn't have supernatural powers, when he heard that I was a magician. He was genuinely convinced I would put some sort of evil spell on him. - Donald. P.S. I have been approached a few times by people who asked me for a reading (fortune telling), and I don't even do mentalism! I specialise in kids and family shows. Not everyone thinks that what we do is "an actor playing the part of a magician."
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Necromancer Inner circle Chicago 3076 Posts |
Donald,
Fair enough. Best, Neil
Creator of The Xpert (20 PAGES of reviews!), Cut & Color, Hands-Off Multiple ESP (HOME) System, Rider-Waite Readers book, Zoom Pendulum ebook ...
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Terry Holley Inner circle 1805 Posts |
I for one am glad Neil decided to visit and post in this thread. Questions such as he poses can only help make us sharper in our presentations (you know as the Scripture says, "Iron sharpens iron").
I think it's great when a "non-gospel magician" asks questions. It helps me think through why and what I do when I do perform gospel magic. I believe I posted this once before, but at an FCM convention back in the mid-80's, a well-known "secular" magician asked me a question after he watched a few of the performances. His question went something along the lines of, "If the message you gospel magicians share is as important as you say it is, why do so many of you wrap it in such a poor package?" It really made me think about the quality of my performances! I have always felt that Andre Kole does it the right way. He shares world-class magic, and then eventually does one effect to share the gospel. But in that effect, he wants to be sure that the "magic" of it doesn't overide the "message." In other words, he wants to be sure that the audience hears the message rather than missing it because they are more concerned about the effect. I know my reply is a bit off line from the original post regarding mentalism, but we all need to take a fresh look at what we do in whatever field we're in. Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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cpatchett Veteran user My current prediction is that I have 337 Posts |
Neil, thanks for your thoughtful and thorough response. I understand and agree with what I think is the essence of your argument; that the strength and mystery of a performance should not be invalidated or weakened unnecessarily. And I agree that a lingering sense of intrigue, as long as it is not misdirected, can serve to enhance the message.
At the same time, for reasons both Donald and I have brought up, I still believe that the Gospel performer needs be conscious of, and to walk carefully, the fine line between intrigue and deception. Craig
Magician: Someone willing to spend $15 to learn how to make $1 disappear.
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