The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » F/X » » Backdrops » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
Donald Dunphy
View Profile
Inner circle
Victoria, BC, Canada
7381 Posts

Profile of Donald Dunphy
In a post you said this:

Quote:
mghia: Houdini, Blackstone and all the greats would hold their secrets from each other to the point that stories of them sneaking around to obtain the secrets have been recounted.


That sounded like a reference to spying and stealing of information / secrets.

Then later in the same post, you said this...

Quote:
mghia: I for one will let you tell me all your ideas. If a magician wants to spill his secrets I will take them. But he should not expect secrets in return just because he has loose lips. I might share thoughts and ideas on theory but I am not going to publicly push secrets or methods or sources on a public board.


From the way I read your whole post, you seemed to be equating these two actions with one another. I guess I mis-understood what you meant by your post. You have now corrected me.

- Donald.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
mghia
View Profile
Veteran user
Kymystical
387 Posts

Profile of mghia
Quote:
On 2004-08-02 19:27, kenscott wrote:
Mghia

I think you missed my "point". I have NO problem with sharing. In fact a lot of stuff that I use in my show that is on my video that I sell to magicians has been disccussed on this forum.

No I am not looking to get something in return if I share something. I mean lets get serious.

Ken


Ken I have stated you can share your info all you want bUT magicians do not have the ethical right to share info that is not theirs to share.
NJJ
View Profile
Inner circle
6439 Posts

Profile of NJJ
C'mon guys...we're talking about BACKDROPS here! It's hardley magic's greatest secret!!!
kenscott
View Profile
Inner circle
1869 Posts

Profile of kenscott
Thank you Nicholas my point excatly.

Ken
Dennis Michael
View Profile
Inner circle
Southern, NJ
6018 Posts

Profile of Dennis Michael
Let me set the record straight regarding the Wal-Mart backdrop. First I didn't steal it from Barry's book. I went to the KIDabra Conference and Barry told everyone there how he made it. It was in one of his lectures and afterwards he allowed all to come up and see all the props he created.

In the dealer's room, he again allowed anyone interested in this home-made design to look it over. If you knew Barry Mitchell, he encouraged others to save money and build props. Barry loves to create and after he creates it uses it for a year, he either markets it or discontinues it. Barry also loves to share information. He is that kind of guy.

Barry gave that information freely to all who wanted it. As for his book, it is loaded with information. It was Barry Mitchell's fabulous lectures that encouraged most of us to buy his book when it came out in print.

Barry wanted to share this information with all the attendees at KIDabra. His reward...to see that KIDabra was and continues to be one of the best conferences (Conventions) ever. Attendees return year after year and buy out most of what Barry sells (Creates). This information was given freely and I didn't get it from Barry's book. I got it directly from Barry himself. When his book came out I was one of the first to buy it. In addition, I was sharing some of my ideas with Barry and one of them appeared in his book. (With my permission). (I am also the bald headed guy in the front row on his DVD on creativity.)

Any one who knows Barry will tell you he is one of the nicest and funniest entertainers out there. His sincerity in giving is genuine. His outgoing personality just draws people to him to hear his humor, his stories, his creations, and to learn from him.

Most likely, this idea of sharing this Wal-Mart backdrop has had an increase in sales on Barry's Creativity book. The major drawback of the Wal-Mart system is it is at least twice as heavy as the Spider system. At the same convention, Laflin was and still is selling the Spider system. Barry even made a humorist comparison reference to it during his lecture.

If sharing is not part of being an entertainer, then why do we have so many SAM, IBM, and other magic societies? Aren't conventions a place to meet others, learn new things, buy, things, share ideas, and enjoy our art form with other like us.?
Dennis Michael
mghia
View Profile
Veteran user
Kymystical
387 Posts

Profile of mghia
Dennis,
You nailed it. You said he shared it in his lecture at Kidabra and shred it with those who were there, not to share it with everyone in the world.

This has nothing to do with Barry or whether or not he cares if you share it.
Dennis the bigger picture is that you still think you have the right to share ideas you learned from others publicly. Barry and you just happen to be the current example of the disregard magicians can have for other peoples ideas.
You did take his idea and shared it on a public board.

Most people who read on this forum did not go to Kidabra nor do they own his book or DVD.
I have his DVD which was a tape from Kidabra
and at no time on it, which was taped the same day you were there, does Barry say that you can share the idea with anyone you choose.

All I want magicians to do is be more mindful that just because you learn something from of lecture, book or DVD, it does not give you any rights to give away the information, especially on a public board with no controls on who sees it.

Please give what I say some thought before you respond.
I think if you are a true magician and understand the first rule of magic, you will agree that it is unfair to the magicians who have paid for the ideas not to have someone give them away.

If Barry Mitchell wants to give the ideas from his books or lectures away, that is his choice, not yours.

It is not Dennis's, Ken, Nicholas's or even myself's right to decide what should be public domain from someone's book or lecture.
If the artist is generous enough to share an idea with you, why would you just throw it away to all?

For some reason I was born in a different time with different mentors who taught the importance of secrets.

Al Flosso would never sell you a secret just because you had a few bucks to spend, Slydini would not just teach anything. When I grew up the difference between being a magician rather than a clown or comedy actor was the fact that we had secret knowledge that not everyone knew. The protection of ideas is just as important. I for one respect when someone is kind enough to share a secret with me.

If they do not tell me I can share it with the world, then I will not!

Please think the next time you post. The next time you want to give way ideas you did not create. It is not helpful to the guy if he finds out everyone knows his ideas because someone shared it with the world.
magicgeorge
View Profile
Inner circle
Belfast
4299 Posts

Profile of magicgeorge
Ok mghia , I see where you're coming from; you're worried that people are spreading someone else’s intellectual property without permission. Fair enough, very noble. I also acknowledge the fact that although it's not exposure, since it's not a secret but a tip, if this gem was in his publication it may be construed unfair to share it with those who have not paid.
But, as Mr Dowhy says he shared it with everyone at the lecture, to me this seems the actions of someone who wants to spread his good ideas. After all if he wanted to keep it to himself he would've kept his mouth shut. One doesn't announce an idea to a lecture full of people if one wants to keep an idea hidden, in fact, it was probably a good idea for Mr Mitchell to do so as good folks like Den will share it and spread his name in doing so.
Can someone get in touch with Mr Mitchell about this apparent flagrant exposure? My bet is he'll be a lot less bothered than you are. I think he may well be pleased that his good ideas are being spread along with his name.
George
Emazdad
View Profile
Inner circle
Plymouth UK
1954 Posts

Profile of Emazdad
Mghia, your right we should all endevour to keep the secrets secret, and respect the works of other magicians etc, and we should be especially aware that just because someones in the Café, it doesn't make them a magician.
But I feel this advice on the warl-mart bed / backdrop is not a great magical secret, it's a tip on how to improve the professional look of your performing area. If however someone was to post word for word a trick and routine from a book that would be a definate no no.

Are we sure it's even Barry Mitchells original idea, it may have been a tip he got from a friend, seen an act of some sort use one or just heard about it and decided to put it in his book, a lot of books carry the same performance tips and information.
Great minds think alike and I'm sure more than one person would have thought of it. I've often come up with an idea myself, only to find on talking to others that they do it as well. You may find there are a few none magicical entertainers out there who have never picked up Barry's book but use the backdrop because they've seen the spider, and the bed and note the similarity.

It is not a magical secret just a helpful tip, which is what the forum is about, not sharing secrets with all in sundrey, but helping each other in other ways with helpful advice and tips.
Yours Funfully
Clive "Emazdad" Hemsley
www.emazdad.com

"Magic is a secret, without the secret there is no magic"

Remember there are only 3 types of people in the world, those that can count and those that can't.
mghia
View Profile
Veteran user
Kymystical
387 Posts

Profile of mghia
Clive,
No we do not know it was BMs idea yet everyone is giving him credit.

But it matters little who's idea it was.
It was not the idea of the person who posted it.
Donald Dunphy
View Profile
Inner circle
Victoria, BC, Canada
7381 Posts

Profile of Donald Dunphy
Just a question of clarification.

Are you saying we can't share things like "the magician in trouble" syndrome, "look, don't see" trick theory, etc. because these are explained in David Ginn books, and is therefor not ours to share?

Can we not share about doing Back of Room Sales at shows, because this is material from the Dave Dee course?

- Donald.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
NJJ
View Profile
Inner circle
6439 Posts

Profile of NJJ
Quote:
On 2004-08-07 20:35, Emazdad wrote:

It is not a magical secret just a helpful tip, which is what the forum is about, not sharing secrets with all in sundrey, but helping each other in other ways with helpful advice and tips.


I agree.

I'd be happy for anyone to take a basic idea of mine from my show and make it themselves.

I took the basic concept of Barry's and made my own backdrop. I didn't use his plans or any of his other concepts. I didn't even go to walmart. I have bought several of Barry's props (including his DVD).

This is not a magical secret and so does not violate magician's ethics and since no one has directly printed Barry intructions on the internet (that I can see), it does not violate any laws.

I often read these threads where a poster gives a basic tip or idea of another magician and it inspires me to go out and buy their work. In fact, it was THIS Café that made me want to learn more about Barry's work!

I've email this link to Barry so I'm sure he will comment if he would like.
mghia
View Profile
Veteran user
Kymystical
387 Posts

Profile of mghia
Right- you can not discuss in detail other people's work/ unless the work was intended to be shared or there is express permission.

If the author states in his book to discuss this therory or wants it to become a topic than that is a differnt matter.

But you are talking about discussing a theory. What Dennis did was take an idea, explain it in detail and provide sources. But he could have just said check out the cool idea in BM's book or DVD.

SO you are comparing apples to oranges.

Quote:
On 2004-08-07 20:57, The Gr8 DonaldD wrote:
Just a question of clarification.

Are you saying we can't share things like "the magician in trouble" syndrome, "look, don't see" trick theory, etc. because these are explained in David Ginn books, and is therefor not ours to share?

Can we not share about doing Back of Room Sales at shows, because this is material from the Dave Dee course?

- Donald.
kenscott
View Profile
Inner circle
1869 Posts

Profile of kenscott
MGhIA:

I think in post early in this thread I said I agree with you but in regards to this backdrop I don't see a big deal sharing.

If we did what you said there would be no talk at all. Because everything that is talked about is in some sort of book or another.

If we talked about how Barry made his Flag o Matic trick then yes that would not be good. We are talking aobut a Walmart fold up bed for a backdrop. Barry does not even sell it, the idea is in a book.

I have written many articles on using music and I talk about the showtech system that I use that controls my music. Many people have talked about it before as well. I hope people can use the ideas that are given by me or anyone that might have seen me use it. Ihave not seen discussions on how to make tricks in these boards. Again it was a backdrop.

If it helped make someone show better then it was info well shared.

Lets just agree that we will not agree on the backdrop discussion??

Ken
Dennis Michael
View Profile
Inner circle
Southern, NJ
6018 Posts

Profile of Dennis Michael
You missed the concept of shared... Shared in the context as I posted means for all. Not exclusive to a select few.

Quote:
All I want magicians to do is be more mindful that just because you LEARN something from of lecture, book or DVD, it does not give you any rights to give away the information, especially on a PUBLIC board with no controls on who sees it.


This statement is so flawed. All my college education is wasted...All that I read and have read cannot be adjusted and processed into my thoughts....If the Café is not a place to share ideas, learned concepts, to make improvements on our presentation methods, our marketing skills, then it should be shut down. I learned to read in school but that too is not my ideas the words came from my teachers.

Based on the concept suggested, we should never mention the names of the numerous sleights on this site because they are not the poster's idea, we should not even discuss anything related to the magic field unless they are our own ideas, and no one else can respond because it isn't their idea.

This whole line of postings is way out of perspective.

Why even bother posting on the Café? What is the purpose of the Café if it isn't sharing ideas? Must they only be mine, and must the poster always provide a release statement from the originator?

There are many things in life just not worth arguing over and this is one of them! Take a sheet and two thumb tacks and make your own backdrop...I know this is not an origional idea, and I can't quote what book it came from. (It is postings like this which makes me not want to post on the Café.)

Of the 1,650 plus posting, mostly sharing ideas and concepts all for the benefit to the readers. And what is the focus? A shared concept on a Wal-mart queen size bed can be used as a backdrop is the intelectual property of BM. I really think Barry would be insulted here just like I am.
Dennis Michael
Michael238
View Profile
Inner circle
1210 Posts

Profile of Michael238
Dennis and Ken,I am one person who hopes you guys continue to post. I have learned a lot from both.It is pros like you who's post from the real world make the difference.
www.mikebrownmagic.com
<BR>http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=885780636
Snidini
View Profile
Special user
779 Posts

Profile of Snidini
MrLucky I agree with you also. Dennis and Ken, as well as other, have shared great ideas and have contributed to only improve and help folks who can use their advise and knowledge. I truely believe having met Barry and spoke with him, he too would agree that the sharing of knowledge and ideas can only fuel better improvements to the magic community. I believe the WalMart near me has an idea sheet near these bed frames for all kinds of things you can do with with them and using them for a backdrop appears on the list.
Interesting!
Emazdad
View Profile
Inner circle
Plymouth UK
1954 Posts

Profile of Emazdad
I Dennis you now know the frustration I felt when dealing with 'cardtricks' who was later identified as Mark Lewis.

It's OK to have strong opinions, but to voice them so loudly and have a personal dig at well respected Café members from behind a veil of anonimity is not only a tad cowardly, but gives your views a lack of credibility.

Unlike normal chatrooms where you anonimity is important, The Café members are not normally anonimuos, we're open about our real identities, and our level of experience and because everyone knows who we are, what we specialise in, and can visit our websites etc. All this not only gives our posts credibility, but protects us from accidentally passing secrets on to layman who, are only trying to find out how things are done.
Yours Funfully
Clive "Emazdad" Hemsley
www.emazdad.com

"Magic is a secret, without the secret there is no magic"

Remember there are only 3 types of people in the world, those that can count and those that can't.
lhughes
View Profile
Regular user
Canada
135 Posts

Profile of lhughes
Believe it or not, I clicked on this posting to read about backdrops. I made a backdrop years ago from TOPS treasury of illusions, but was looking for some ideas that were more portable. PLEASE, if you have an ethical problem with a member - WRITE THEM A PRIVATE MESSAGE. Most of us do not want to continue to go through countless postings that do not address the original post. Do others have suggestions on the kind of material to use on their backdrops?
Sleightly yours,
Lorne
Dennis Michael
View Profile
Inner circle
Southern, NJ
6018 Posts

Profile of Dennis Michael
There is another section in FX on backdrops. Also Check out Magic Crafters Magician Backdrops

A friend asked a funeral director if he has backdrops and long ago they had frame setups with good looking backdrops. They are not used today, and he gave them to him.
Dennis Michael
NJJ
View Profile
Inner circle
6439 Posts

Profile of NJJ
My back drop cost me

$157 - Frame
$20 - Material
$35 - Curtain Making

I resold the unused part of the frame for $50. So the total cost was.....$162. Much cheaper then the $1500 for the equivilant spiderflex!
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » F/X » » Backdrops » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.21 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL