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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Finger/stage manipulation » » Load Stealing DVD urgently needed! (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

alextsui
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Malaysia
154 Posts

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Hi everyone,

I have just finished attending the Festival of Magic that was held in one of the shopping malls in my country Malaysia recently. In the few days of watching lots of manipulation acts, one thing really sticks out like a sore thumb. I dare say about 90% of the magicians don't know how to steal a load secretly, either a body load or table load.

Now by posting this I'm not implying I am an expert at stealing. No, far from it. I am not good and I'm still learning how to do body steals properly. However, I keep seeing more and more magicians do bad steals confidently and without fear as though they believe that the audience won't notice anything. Most of the time, they just do a body turn and rummage around in their pocket with the upstage hand while the other hand is distracting the audience by furiously waving a silk. The audience might not have seen what the magician did but if they so much as suspected that he/ she did something with the hidden hand, the production would have lost its intended magical effect.

Some guys even slip their fingers openly under their vest dead-on to the audience and pull something out. Unless you are performing for an audience of brain-dead zombies, what is magical about that? Even worse, sometimes the production item would get hung up in the costume and the magician would "stall" for time to try to pull it out.

This problem has become so bad that I feel something should be done to address this. I have searched long and hard for a good teaching DVD on the subject of body loads and load stealing but haven't found any. Maybe this lack of proper instruction in a way has caused this problem. Magicians would have to resort to their own ideas and methods for stealing loads. Even if these techniques are bad, they would get passed on to their students.

So what is the solution to this? I am calling on all the experienced master magicians who can do perfect steals, without the audience suspecting a thing, to come up with some kind of a teaching DVD. I think a book will not be a good medium because steals involve timing. It's very hard to learn timing just by reading from a book. Hopefully, with some good resources on this critical subject, all the current bad techniques will not get passed to the next generation of magicians, and in this way the standard of magic can be further elevated.
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Bill Hegbli
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Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
22821 Posts

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There is no such thing offered, but only a couple of books I have mentioned previously on body loads. This cannot be actually taught on a DVD, as steals are solely connected to the prop, and the "natural body" position, stance, and movement of the individual performer.

I have also mentioned several times to study the Channing Pollack act on YouTube. He does a lot of steal in that act, and yet nothing is detected, and I am not just talking about the dove productions. He dose card steals as well.

Not everyone can, but the Chavez course covers this loads and steals as well. They do have a mail order course as well as an in person course.

The main problem I have noticed with the oriental performers is that they want this slow "lovey dovey" movement, and thus their upstage hand is hidden for long periods. Steals should be made lighting fast. Positive position and grip, then moved to a concealed position. This only comes with hours of practice, not trying to do the steal quickly. Fast steals will develop as one works on process.

I noticed in the Born DVD, that his steals were done out of a top hat, but he would place something down, and the hand would then move to a new position before being removed from the top hat. This tells me he did not learn that in the Chavez Course, but his poor choice of choosing the wrong table or container size.

Why tell anyone, they will not listen anyway. They have to find out for themselves. In the mean time someone who is doing it correctly will be on his path to the success he deserves for his hard efforts.
MichaelOzMagic
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Des Moines, Iowa
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Steal from places that are easy and convenient for you. For example you can put your hand in your back pocket or side pockets without even thinking about it.a steal should be something that's natural. You should be able to steal something with your eyes closed. Also one thing I don't get about a lot of manipulation acts is why do you have to produce something when it's stolen. If you steal an object and conceal it for awhile and then produce it looks like it came from absolutely nowhere. Just a couple of my thoughts about stealing. I hope they made sense.
Michael
RJH
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Finland
477 Posts

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There are DVDs that cover stealing, but it is always the 1 object, like in Levents Misers Dream DVDs he covers coin steals, in Ultimate guide to billiard ball manipulation he covers bb steals. Why can't somebody make a DVD where there are the most used objects stealed (Cards, balls, silks, etc.)

RJH
Bill Hegbli
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Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
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As I said it would do little good, if there was a DVD showing how to steal objects from a suit of formal tails, it would do little good for todays modern performers in their period gamblers coats or zoot suits costumes.

Instead of wishing, why not decide on a table and clothing. Then put them on and apply what knowledge you have to them.

It is said knowledge is power, and in some cases it is. When I was creating my dove magic portion of my act, I found I could hold and steal 10 to 11 birds on my regular formal dinner jacket, without having the need for a formal tails suit.

Anyone can tell you what they do, but in a lot of cases it will not be any good to the student. So learn all you can on gimmicks and placement, then adapt to your needs.

MichaelOZMagic makes a good point, the delayed or one ahead production method has been around for a long time, but it all depends on what a person is obtaining in his hands, and how it can be held and introduced at the correct time.
yin_howe
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Malaysia
831 Posts

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Quote:
On 2013-08-19 13:13, alextsui wrote:
Hi everyone,

I have just finished attending the Festival of Magic that was held in one of the shopping malls in my country Malaysia recently.


Hi Alex, you were there too? Shld have met up.
"Talent without passion is talent wasted.."
https://www.youtube.com/user/yinhowe80/
alextsui
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Malaysia
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Bill,

I don't agree with you that "it would do little good". I think that any education is better than no education at all. Of course, it would be impossible to teach every kind of steal for every kind of load from any kind of costume. Maybe just teach a few different techniques for different sized objects and give some tips for the student to build on that.

Books are good but for stuff like this, I think teaching through DVD would be much more easily understood and learned. Previously, I tried to learn card manipulation from Jean Hugard's "Card Manipulations" book but couldn't make head or tail of it. Then when Jeff McBride's "The Art of Card Manipulation" DVD series came out, everything became crystal clear. Do you think there would be so many card manipulators today if not for Jeff's valuable contribution?

There's hardly any teaching for stealing a load but strangely, there is a lot of information on doing a "vanish" or "ditching" a load secretly. Just look at all the Topit and Sleeving DVDs (Michael Ammar, Carl Cloutier, Bob Fitch). Why this imbalance?

For those savvy marketers out there, don't you think this is a product that's in demand and with no supply (so far)?
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Bill Hegbli
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Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
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I learned from the printed word totally, and I can do the manipulations just fine. That this the problem today, everyone wants the information to be spoon feed to them. They do not want to think and figure out how it will work for them.

I have posted references and they come back with where, I tell them and they still don't know how to simply click on a website address or scroll down a page. I would imagine they know how, but don't want to do it. It is to much work for them.

If a person is not will to put some time, effort, and thinking into anything, then the simply do not deserve to have the knowledge. And that is what I am finding on the web today, they want everything on a silver platter spoon feed to them. Then they say, "Okay" and walk away.

No passion and no desire, does not make good anything.

To answer your question, no there is not a demand for making a "steal DVD", maybe you want them to, but they would never buy it. The magic market is a very small market, and then to category it and try to sell to those interested in manipulations, is even smaller. If you read any of the forums on the Café, you should have noted they only want "easy to do magic". And they do not want generic information. They only want their exact situation explained to them. This I have experienced myself on the Café. They would be lucky to sell 2 such DVDs.

Finally, the really professional and working magicians keep their secrets to themselves. Only recently, after 60+years, has Channing Pollack's dove productions are being explained by James Dimmare.

This is just my thought and experiences with 50+ years in magic and now encountering the new magician of this millennium.

Note the new request for critique of his manipulation act. The only thing the guy had to say is "Keep it coming!" Really. I wasted a half-hour of my time trying to help him and he could not even acknowledge on word. His not asking for clarification tells me, he is just going to do what he has been doing all along.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......rum=10&4
RJH
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Finland
477 Posts

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Alex, I have a list of books and DVDs that will tech you stealing different objects:

Fantasy by Po-Cheng Lai teaches you fans steals.
Parasols anywhere by Joker Lam teaches you parasol steals.
The Evolution of card manipulation by Lee-Ang Hsuan teaches you card steals.
Ultimate guide to billiard balls by Levent teaches you billiard ball steals.
Ultimate guide to Misers dream by Levent teaches you coin steals.
Magic and manipulation by Geoffrey Buckingham SHOWS you billiard ball, thimble, coin and silk steals.
Expert manipulation of playing cards by Lewis Ganson teaches you card steals from gloves.
Routined manipulation 2 by Lewis Ganson teaches you billiard ball steals.
Principles and deceptions by Arthur Buckley teaches you billiard ball and coin steals.

that's it for me. Remember that all the steals are not holder steals, some are pocket steals (like in Routined manipulation 2 billiard ball steals).

RJH
Anatole
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Inner circle
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I don't think anyone does "perfect steals." One spectator may be completely fooled while another may see a tell. Even people who have a background in magic (e.g. the apparatus/box folks who know little about stage manipulation) may be completely fooled by a steal that a seasoned manipulator might think is blatant.

Is there a reason why you are looking for a "load stealing DVD" rather than a good book that has load stealing info? There are still some "secrets" in print texts that have not been covered in a DVD.

When I was a teenager in the mid-60's, I remember seeing one of my friends in the teen magic club doing a billiard ball routine and he completely fooled me with the steals. My "box magic" friends thought the steals were obvious. I thought he was just wiping his sweaty, nervous hands,when in actuality he was doing one of the steals described by Ganson in the billiard ball section of _Routined Manipulation, Part II_.

I think in other posts on similar topics in this forum I mentioned some of the clever steals that Anverdi showed in his lecture.

----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez
----- Sonny Narvaez
Anatole
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You might also want to investigate Gen Grant's _How to Make a Living by Stealing... Doves, of Course!_ It was originally released on videotape, and I don't know if it was ever transferred to DVD. Denny Haney also has the lecture notes at
http://dennymagic.com/store/general-gran......ves.html

Considering that dove workers make steals full-front, I would guess that the principles of misdirection in a dove act would apply to other types of steals. Of course, most doveworkers wear tails, so your wardrobe may be a factor in what methods are best for you.

You said you need this information "urgently," but please give it the thought, consideration, and practice that it deserves.

Also, you don't mention what you want to steal/load. That obviously is an important consideration.

----- Sonny
----- Sonny Narvaez
Oliver Ross
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Inner circle
Europe
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Yes Sonny, General Grant's "How to make a living by Stealing...Doves of course ! can be purchased on DVD now. I got it last year and I'm very pleased with the investement.

Stevensmagic is selling them actually.


Oliver.
alextsui
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Regular user
Malaysia
154 Posts

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Thanks for all the recommendations, RJH. Levent's Manipulation Act DVD is the one that comes closest to showing how to steal a general load. He uses a silk fountain and on another occasion, 2 spring bills.

Bill, not everyone can learn from the written word as well as you do. Just because they can't doesn't mean that they are lazy and want to be spoon-fed. I learn better from DVD (like many others I'm sure) just because English is not my first language. I find it hard to visualize a move just by reading about it. Most times I find that I end up with more questions than answers. However, the moment I see a move demonstrated on DVD, everything becomes clear.
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