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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Questions about memorized decks in general. (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Magic-Daniel
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Hi All.

Are there any real difference between me memorizing a complete random shuffled 52 cards or some of the memorized stacks out there, like the Aranson or Tamariz stacks?

Do the Aranson and Tamariz stacks have built in effects? Stack depended effects?

I never work from new deck order, so I don't care about having the option of shuffling a new deck into my memorized deck. But can you with some of the stacks already out there, come back to new deck order with some (faro) shuffles?

Thanks
Robert P.
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Oh yeah, there is a significant difference as the Aronson and Tamariz stacks have effects built into them. Two of their books, Try the Impossible and Mnemonica, deal with a lot of material for memorized decks. Most of it is stack independent but there are effects in each book based on their stack.

With the Tamariz stack you are able to go back into new deck order and he describes how on pg. 19 of Mnemonica. It requires reversing the top twenty six cards in the deck (which Tamariz shows an effect doing this), which gets the deck in stay stack order, or mirror stack. FYI, there are also a lot of tricks that can be done from stay stack order. But to answer your question, from there you perform four out-faros to get to new deck order.
ddyment
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Many of these questions about the nature of memorized decks, and particularly the trade-offs among various approaches to same, are discussed in some detail in my on-line essay on the topic.
Doug Dyment's Deceptionary :: Elegant, Literate, Contemporary Mentalism ... and More
Vlad_77
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I just picked up Dani DaOrtiz's My Personal Stack. It's VERY good and he credits Tamariz. The interesting thing about this stack is that there is no need to create mnemonics for each card. It's based on a cool formula that really takes little time to get down. It's available at Conjuring Arts Research Center as an e-book. (I'm sure it's available elsewhere but, CARC is a great resource and I support it because what they have there is simply out of this known universe for all things magic).
doriancaudal
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Quote:
On 2013-08-24 05:49, Magic-Daniel wrote:
Hi All.

Are there any real difference between me memorizing a complete random shuffled 52 cards or some of the memorized stacks out there, like the Aranson or Tamariz stacks?

Do the Aranson and Tamariz stacks have built in effects? Stack depended effects?

I never work from new deck order, so I don't care about having the option of shuffling a new deck into my memorized deck. But can you with some of the stacks already out there, come back to new deck order with some (faro) shuffles?

Thanks


You may find this interesting...

http://www.vincenthedan.com/magic/blog-whyastack.html

http://www.vincenthedan.com/magic/blog-stackchoice.html
Hands-off ACAAN - freely chosen card and number : http://doriancaudal.wix.com/miracaan
Magic-Daniel
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Quote:
On 2013-08-24 11:39, Vlad_77 wrote:
I just picked up Dani DaOrtiz's My Personal Stack. It's VERY good and he credits Tamariz. The interesting thing about this stack is that there is no need to create mnemonics for each card. It's based on a cool formula that really takes little time to get down. It's available at Conjuring Arts Research Center as an e-book. (I'm sure it's available elsewhere but, CARC is a great resource and I support it because what they have there is simply out of this known universe for all things magic).


Is Dani's stack a Sequential Stacks, compared to a memorized stack?
JanForster
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Each memorized deck is a stack - but not each stack is a memorized deck, unless you memorize the stack. Think about it. Read in this section of the Café. You'll find all answers for your questions, even for your questions which you don't know by now Smile. Jan
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Atom3339
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^ Jan; A perfect reply.
TH

Occupy Your Dream
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On 2013-08-24 15:29, Magic-Daniel wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-08-24 11:39, Vlad_77 wrote:
I just picked up Dani DaOrtiz's My Personal Stack. It's VERY good and he credits Tamariz. The interesting thing about this stack is that there is no need to create mnemonics for each card. It's based on a cool formula that really takes little time to get down. It's available at Conjuring Arts Research Center as an e-book. (I'm sure it's available elsewhere but, CARC is a great resource and I support it because what they have there is simply out of this known universe for all things magic).


Is Dani's stack a Sequential Stacks, compared to a memorized stack?


Hi Magic-Daniel,

Jan's answer is spot on, but to answer about Dani DaOrtiz's stack, it is a memorized stack but way it is structured is a sort of departure from memorized decks like Aronson, Tamariz, and Nikola. I can explain a little better in Secret Sessions, so, I'll write a review of it this week.

Best,
Vlad
Magic-Daniel
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Tried to PM you Vlad, but your inbox is full.

Can you tell me if Is Dani's stack is like the "QuickerStack" where you don't have to memorize the whole stack, but it's more a simple math system?
JanForster
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I have written it so often, but here again : Keep in mind that you do NOT learn an order. Whatever stack or method for learning you decide to go for you have to prepare your mindset for the real goal before you begin. And that is learning a second and secret identity for each card which is by accident a number. End of story.

Of course you can use their secret identities to put them in the order from 1 to 52 or whatever you like. But in your work you have to make the instant correlation between card and stack number and vice versa - without any hesitation, calculations or memory aids. Your initial memo aids will drop out completely. If you do not reach this stadium you will never do the true and extremely strong stuff you could do with a MD. And once you know your secret identities (your stack) cold you will never need more then 6 to 8 minutes per week (!) to keep it fresh and fast. For this you do not even need a deck of cards. It's pure mental gymnastics. Mentally run the stack up and down, forward, backward, all the suits in order in both directions. You can do that three times the week while brushing your teeth...

I do it since twenty years, so I know about what I'm talking. If you read e. g. Simon Aronson and Michael Close you will see that we are all in very good company - and that it does work. To learn a stack you never need more than 4 weeks, one hour per day. Don't drop a day and you will succeed... A decent pianist has to practice a lot more daily - and not only for 4 weeks. What a lazy magic world

And BTW: There are so many magicians who have invented useless substitutes for the MD just because they were too lazy to learn a deck in the first place. And the time they spent to invent their system took longer than actually memorizing a deck...

I recommend very much Simon Aronson's method for learning.

Jan
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ddyment
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Magic-Daniel wrote:
Quote:
... Is Dani's stack is like the "QuickerStack" where you don't have to memorize the whole stack, but it's more a simple math system?


This question makes the common error of conflating two completely independent issues:

Issue 1) Is the stack memorized? A deck is memorized only if it is memorized!

Issue 2) What intermediate method is used to help memorize the stack? There are four options: rote memory, classic mnemonics, rule-based, and algorithmic; each has its particular benefits and drawbacks. There is no single "best" approach: it depends on your needs.

All of this is thoroughly discussed is my [url-http://www.deceptionary.com/aboutstacks.html]on-line essay on full-deck stacks[/url]; please take a few minutes to read through it, and you'll be much better equipped to sort through all the misinformation posted on this subject..
Doug Dyment's Deceptionary :: Elegant, Literate, Contemporary Mentalism ... and More
pnielan
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Doug is very clear on Issue 1 and Issue 2---especially with the word intermediate---and my experience is in complete agreement. There are however variants on rote memory (Tamariz emphasizes visual, tactile, audio combined to make rote memory faster and more permanent) and on mnemonics. One mnemonic approach is to use a phonetic alphabet to construct "peg words" for each card and position and then to link them. Another mnemonic approach would be to use personal references for numbers (for example: 23 Michael Jordan) and cards (6 of Hearts represents the 6 championships that he won). I've written more on this in other posts. Again as Doug points out since these are INTERMEDIATE methods, you can combine and mix all to memorize your stack.
dykstraj99
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I decided to memorize a deck a year ago. Did it in a week. If you are contemplating this....to quote Nike, "just do it."
I've never heard that anyone that has regretted doing this.
Harry Lorayne
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Pnielan: You can actually learn the proper way to utilize Peg Words for card memory in, I think, TEN of my books on memory training. I even teach how to memorize the order/position of a full deck of cards in minutes. But... HL.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
Harry Lorayne
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A week!!??
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
Steve Suss
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Quote:
On 2013-08-27 10:52, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Pnielan: You can actually learn the proper way to utilize Peg Words for card memory in, I think, TEN of my books on memory training. I even teach how to memorize the order/position of a full deck of cards in minutes. But... HL.
I'm one of those guys who learned mnemonics from one of Harry Lorayne's books over 45 years ago. I've used it ever since in school as well as magic and mentalism. In fact I use it in everyday life. I recently switched stacks to Aaronsons stack and literally learned it in less than one hour. Of course I already knew my peg words which would have taken somewhat longer. I worked with it 15 minutes every day(usually while eating breakfast) for about a month before using it in my performances. I have a normal memory and if I can memorize a deck so easily I'm sure most others can also.

My suggestion is to stop fighting it and try it. Take a small step at a time and you'll be surprised how easy and quickly it will come. Your mind is much more capable than you think it is. Prove it to yourself by learning a mnemonic system such as the one Harry Lorayne teaches.
Steve
Steve Suss
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Quote:
On 2013-08-27 10:52, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Pnielan: You can actually learn the proper way to utilize Peg Words for card memory in, I think, TEN of my books on memory training. I even teach how to memorize the order/position of a full deck of cards in minutes. But... HL.
I'm one of those guys who learned mnemonics from one of Harry Lorayne's books over 45 years ago. I've used it ever since in school as well as magic and mentalism. In fact I use it in everyday life. I recently switched stacks to Aaronsons stack and literally learned it in less than one hour. Of course I already knew my peg words which would have taken somewhat longer. I worked with it 15 minutes every day(usually while eating breakfast) for about a month before using it in my performances. I have a normal memory and if I can memorize a deck so easily I'm sure most others can also.

My suggestion is to stop fighting it and try it. Take a small step at a time and you'll be surprised how easy and quickly it will come. Your mind is much more capable than you think it is. Prove it to yourself by learning a mnemonic system such as the one Harry Lorayne teaches.
Steve
dykstraj99
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Quote:
On 2013-08-27 10:52, Harry Lorayne wrote:
A week!!??

I thought that was pretty good Smile I got mneomnica and just started memorizing my own way. Prob would have gone faster differently, but now it is in my head and doesn't take too much to keep it there.
pnielan
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All: I own at least 15 of Harry's books (both memory and magic) and they are cherished possessions. Reputation Makers is a special favorite. And have known his first 100 peg words for over 30 years. I use memory techniques learned from his books constantly.

Steve: Yes, I could memorize a deck of cards and their position (secret identity) in an hour (probably less) using Lorayne techniques. And that's a fine way (but not the only way) to start. But after an hour you don't know the stack well enough to perform some of the best memdeck routines. That, as you point out, takes significantly more time and practice, during which many of the mnemonic associations drop away. Not fighting it. Have done it.
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