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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts 
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On 2013-10-29 22:48, Lawrence O wrote: Lawrence O, the fact that the spectators are conditioned to see the left hand actually closing over the coin is a very powerful tool but you can't use it each time because it would be a little "too much". One important point is that the vanish of the coin vanish occurs in the hand (Left) where the spectators saw the coin at the start of the sequence (and most of the time). I try to construct sequences which uses this principle but it is not always easy... |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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The coin is shown at the right fingertips with the left hand in rest position at waist level. Glance at the left elbow as the coin is seemingly placed in the left fingertips for the right hand TO BE ABLE TO tug the left sleeve at the elbow. On its way up the right hand brings the coin in Classic Palm. The left hand seemingly holding the coin is raised and, after tugging the sleeve, the right hand with the coin in Classic Palm points at the left cufflinks (or wrist watch) to explain that the clinking against it preventw any sleeving (first Obliteration Parenthesis and Juan Tamariz's Cancelling Out of suspected solutions). Now swiftly, the left fingers seem to place their (alleged) coin in the right fingertips (coin Classic Palm in right hand Fred Kaps subtlety) TO BE ABLE TO tug the right sleeve (second Obliteration Parenthesis). During this the right arm, with its hand seemingly holding the coin at the right fingertips (coin still Classic Palm in Fred Kaps subtlety), extends. The left hand, after tugging the right sleeve, moves back to the left remaining open in expectation (Funsway "pre-emptive doubt") as the right hand turns palm down. Pause for half a beat and open the right fingers as for dropping the coin. Beautiful sequence and very effective. Congratulations! Do you know who invented the "tugging the sleeve" "move"? Bernad Bilis uses this "move" very often. |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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The tugging of the sleeve is ages old. Now I'm proud to say that using it consciously as a "main action" relegating the transfer to an In Transit Action is something that I came up with when searching an alternative to the picking up of the wand or of the woofle dust. In the same line I'm using a glance at my wrist watch with a reference to the time for the magic to happen: it's a great for the coin to the spectator's wristwatch made popular by Gregory Wilson. Some other magicians came up with a rib scratching move. Others use the adjustment of the glasses (but they cannot use the initial glance necessary to a real In Transit Action)
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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ottphd Loyal user 243 Posts
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1.Jiceh says "Open the empty LEFT HAND and say "... to disappear caught by the time"-- This is a great way to reveal without giving the slightest hint you are going to try and deceive them.
2. Al says "I found this valuable coin. I decided to hold it tightly so it would not get away." -- He might be causing the audience to be more vigilant of the sleight by saying "it would not get away" I do believe sending messages that are interpenetrated either at the conscious or subconscious level is something we should be aware of. These are just my thoughts. |
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cperkins Special user 702 Posts
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This is one of the better threads I've encountered at the Café in quite some time. It's good to step back and analyze once in awhile, what makes some magic stunning. And what is more integral to its performance than a simple production and vanish sequence? "Obliteration Parenthesis," "Pre-emptive Guilt," attention control, distance variables, the effect of patter on audience expectation - even a discussion of specific action sequencing to illustrate - good stuff. Posting a few videos here and there to further demonstrate a point, and this becomes a virtual seminar.
Anyway, this is all good - by folks who know what they are talking about. Thanks to all. Little side note on holding a non-existant coin: I've learned to use silver dollars even though my hands are small. I rearely hold the coin in my recieving hand in anything resembling a curled closed fist (looks terrible). I only really close the hand in a fist as part of the reveal of the vanish. Instead I use finger tip vanishes with the receiving hand held with fingers up and back of the hand to the audience. I add a little arch or relaxation to the left fingers before receiving the coin from the right and stiffen the fingers of the left when it presumably now holds the coin. My thumb presses from behind but the specs don't see this side of course. Sometimes I point the left hand (recieving hand) toward the floor and do the vanish underhanded. My point is, I exaggerate a little tension of the left fingers at the precise millesecond the hand "receives" the coin. I seldom position my sending hand more than 3 or 4 inches from the receiving hand before I "transfer." Passively allow the spec to see your open right palm. Try this. If you shorten this distance, you may instantly find a much more believable transfer. And guess what? A ROV vanish is cool but it isn't always that important. cp
To see a difficult thing lightly handled gives the impression of the impossible.
(Goethe) |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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On 2013-10-30 11:54, cperkins wrote: I like the verticality of moves because the ones laying coins palm up, generally, are performing for a few friends or for cameras. When the audience is more numerous, bringing the hands up allows a larger audience to be involved... rather than just the front row. Now Following Vernon in his difference between natural and naturalistic, you may want to alter very slightly the position of the extended "receiving fingers". Just press your left thumb very strongly into the outer phalanx of the left middle finger. This makes the tip of the middle finger (only that one) to bend in. This telegraphs "I'm holding something in this hand, when the natural finger extension that you describe isn't as convincing. Just try it in front of a mirror and see if you like it. Now the problem with the ROV is that it does make the performer feel smart and skillful at getting the "burn". Thus, with most performers (Micky Silver excepted), it prevents the transfer to be an In Transit Action by putting the focus on the transfer rather than on the "main action" (tugging the sleeve, taking up the wand, looking at the wristwatch...) That's why I prefer Al Schneider's Vanish for small friendly audiences and the French Drop or Ramsay Vanish for larger audiences. This being said we can all adapt the feint of conditioning the audience that Jiceh described in a vertical and at the fingertips (out of the fist) position.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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On 2013-10-30 08:43, Lawrence O wrote: The tugging of the sleeve is a very good tool and the fact that you use it as a main action is a great idea. It's (as you mentionned) a good alternative to the picking up of the wand. An other way is to execute a vanishing sequence between the hands of a spectator (the Right hand with the coin palmed take the upper hand of the spectator and put it away to reveal the vanish (M Vadini uses a similar idea in his cigarette vanishing trick). |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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For those who have read "Magic in Theory" by Lamont and Wiseman and those who want to read it, here's a little sequence from it :
1 - The RIGHT hand holds a coin at the fingertips 2 - You look at a wand on the table 3 - While looking at the wand, you made a false transfer into the LEFT hand 4 - You take the wand with the RIGHT hand and make a pass above the LEFT hand 5 - You reveal the vanish In reality, the sequence is a little better than my description and there is also a little script (patter). The sequence is good but : - The spectator has seen the coin ONLY in the RIGHT hand - Because you don't want to put emphasize on the (false) transfer, you do it while looking at the wand (the spectator looks at it too as Ramsay taught us) : so the fact that the coin is in the LEFT hand is not inevitably anchored in the spectator's mind. It's curious but acting like that (looking at the wand or at a spectator) minimizes the information we want to give to the audience. - So the illusion is good but you have to go on with something else to prevent any reconstruction process (a relatively easy one because the spectator has only seen the coin in the right hand...) |
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Craig Ousterling Special user Orlando, FL 587 Posts
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Some Deja Vu for me!
Tom Stone has excellent information about the psychology of 1~5 of the above. In his workshops he will make you do it over and OVER until you do it right OR he'll beat you with your own wand. (juss keeeeding Tom, I don't think you ACTUALLY beat me with it.  )
He also wrote a great article detailing those steps in Genii (June 2009 pp30, Wayne Houchin is on the cover) called "In the Gaps, Magicians Reside." Point #2 is illustrated. I see a lot of correlation between this discussion and that article. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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On 2013-10-30 15:52, Jiceh wrote: Theory of magic as understood by magicians is like canes as understood by the blind...unhelpful when working from ordinary theater audience perspective. To the audience the character may be blind. Whether the actor and his cane are authentically blind and medically certified as such is not usually what they come to the theater to find out. Just one of the questions (or elephants) that's waiting for attention is How confident you want the audience to be about what you are doing? Under that are questions about the sort of attention given to the coin, the performer's specific actions and anticipated procedure. Are they supposed to be staring fixedly at the coin? Are they supposed to be following you along a process? Are they supposed to be recalling something from earlier in your show while you are doing the "coin to other hand" transfer? The backstage mechanics of how (not) to truly transfer the coin is not so much an issue, IMHO, unless the audience is already familiar with sleights, alerted to your actual intentions and staring at your hands. Again - IMHO.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts
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John, I understand what you are saying.
We here appear to be very sophisticated performers. We understand that we must be aware of our audience. We are also very aware that when performing we must capture the focus of the audience and move it where we wish. Several things have been presented in this forum to accomplish that. I suspect that you have not been aware of them as you insist on bringing our attention to it. As you suggest this is a question and you say you have studied psychology extensivly, could you provde a senario or provide a clip demonstrating a technique or techinques for doing so? Furthermore, if you insist on raiseing the subject to another level, I will go you one more. In my opinion, before you can be a performing magician, you must be a decent human being. There are many that think becasue they can do miricles, they should be worshiped. It ain't so. There are those that think becasue they know all the latest moves and some that others don't know, they should be worshiped. There are those that think becasue they have made 15000 posts, there word is gospel. It ain't so. From my perspective, the people posting here are very sophisticated. I have learned a few things. Now, we seem to have addressed this issue in three categoreis. 1. mechancs 2. tracking or managing audience attention and welfare 3. being a decent human being I always keep in mind that at the end of a performance, we bow to the audience. They do not bow to us but make a decision if they should offer a reward of applause. We do so much for that little bit of praise. I maintain that, a correct attitude will go a long way to prevenitng the audience from saying, "It is in the other hand." And, bear in mind, the intent of this thrad is to address the qustion of handling the comment, "It is in the other hand." John, is your post addressing that issue? What suggest would you offer to address that question. Have you ever done such a move and a spectator has said that to you? To all. Sorry, I haven't gotten to making clips. I am hard at work on designing a new snake basket and a digital jumbo rising card. All the best.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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Jon
We can study some specific practical topics (as you've shared yourself many times in your life here or in Harry Loraybe's Apocalypse) without forgetting the fact that perfect simulation is not what makes "real magic". As you know I agree that perfect simulation doesn't create "real magic" but flowless technique does contribute to it. If we wanted to exchange views on what makes a coin vanish "magic" from a psychological standpoint, we would have opened a topic on Kenton Knepper's Rants into Raves (to learn how to convey that we're "decent human beings") or exchanged on Gary Kurz's Leading With Your Head or on Darwin Ortiz Designing Miracles & Strong Magic... or opened a discussion on the art of scripting magic or not self centered body language which are the topics in our art that are the most ill treated. Does it means that we could not exchange on perfect simulation, especially when the principles, discussed here with a coin, can be adapted to all kinds of small props in Close Up? Did tudying human psychology prevent you from studying specific topics like attention or Gestalt theories of perception, or neurological aspects of love, social psychology or sex issues or power games in relationships or Barnum effects or Rorschach or ...? Before doing synthetical work why should we be prevented from doing a detailed and rigorous analytical one? I know that you have many touches to bring for enriching this analytical work. Please don't refrain...
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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I'm skeptical regarding the premise that one can do things to make a mundane action credible. The nature of the action, transferring a coin to the other hand, is itself mundane.
One might do better to ask what we can do to make our sleights and procedures less likely to arouse suspicion, to alert the audience that we are doing other that mundane actions? Older books took it as beneath notice that the performer would add herbs, spices, charms,chants, pebbles from the shore on the far side of Styx, a pinch of dust ground from a coin picked from Charon's pocket... Or that collection of stuff used in Eddie Joseph's Shattering Coins. Working without a net of storybook reference while staying clear of the jugglers realm of skill demonstration is no small challenge. What accounts for the magic? What distinguishes the moments where you are setting the stage for the magic from the moments when the magic is supposed to be happening? Here's a coin - now it's gone. Now it's in the other hand. Applaud my skill. Not the best of stories to share IMHO. Reading a little about causality from back when the arguments were happening (David Hume vs David Bohm) can offer some background for attempting to hide self evident causality in trick construction. To an audience "you did something" suffices to explain where we fret over credits and finger positions.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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6 - Open the LEFT hand and say "It's because it's a very old coin" Just a little nota about the sequence with the patter I posted in this topic before. When I talk about the date on the coin, I briefly shown the coin to illustrate but I don't put the attention on the inscription (date) because I don't want that the spectators rememeber that I took the coin with my righ hand. In reality, there is no break in the step 7 and 8. The right hand takes the coin (briefly) and immediatly put it back (false transfer) in the left hand. As cperkins mentionned, the distance between the 2 hands is a short one (steps 7 and 8). The distance between the 2 hands at the end of the sequence (when you reveal the vanish) must be much longer...but you have to find a good reason to put the left hand "away". |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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On 2013-10-31 00:31, Al Schneider wrote: Great post! |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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On 2013-10-31 08:20, Jiceh wrote: Again the tugging of the sleeve (if not used before) is a very good excuse to take the hands far apart: the right hand first moves back but this is not perceived as away (it's in the same vertical plan) and only then does it move away and to the right (horizontal plan)...
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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Now, in another thread concerning the revelation of a vanish, I posted this
Here is one of my ways of revealing the vanish of a coin. Following a false transfer, the coin is allegedly in the left fingers (extended and pointing up) The left thumb then moves swiftly away to the left as the palm up left hand is jerked very slightly up and immediately slightly down, lightly breaking at the wrist as if receiving the coin in the left palm. The left fingers are still curled screening the content of the left palm. Now, very slowly, the left hand with its fingers still curled is rotated palm towards the audience and, as soon as that position is reached, the left fingers stretch for half a second, as if the palm was pushing something invisible in a no gravity space. This revelation of a vanish creates all the focus and the suspense we need to prevent the audience to say "it's in the other hand"... especially if some of the techniques mentioned in this thread have been put in play.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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On 2013-10-31 12:07, Lawrence O wrote: This seems very good but I'm not sure to have a good picture of the sequence Very interesting indeed |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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I'm still pondering what Robert-Houdin wrote as the tournequette - and how Ramsay's Pivot vanish worked so well for him. Both are thumbless takes and neither are simulations of ordinary actions. Yet as can be seen on the film of Ramsay at work - his vanish worked as, trusting RH in the matter, the twisting take vanish worked way back when.
So, how did those vanish techniques work? Do they work for anyone anytime? What needs to happen for those techniques to be effective. There's some film of Ramsay in action in the DVD that came with an issue of Genii Magazine. I suppose a more general question is "okay if that works for you - but what needs to be true for it to work for anyone else?" There's a story about a guy getting a custom suit. The customer goes over each detail and the tailor explains to the customer how to stand so that the suit fits properly. The customer leaves the shop, hobbling along in a grotesque posture. Two passers by see the guy walking along and one says to the other - "that poor guy" - and the other replies "yes, but look at how well his suit fits". The snarky version has one saying to the other "look a perfect fit". What's the audience supposed to be perceiving at the moment of the transfer?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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MICKEY SILVER Elite user Boston, Ma. 442 Posts
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Thanks Guys!!! The Retntion Vanish has to be angle proof to fool everyone everytime!!! I mean everytime 100% without fail!!!! My retention vanish is able to be performed with people in front of me as well as on both sides of me and people looking over both my shoulders!!!!! THIS IS WHAT I CALL A SUCESSFUL RETENTION VANISH!!!! Absolutely no fear of anyone burning my hands whatsoever, because I guarantee mysef not to ever get caught!!!!!!! I have yet to meet "ANYONE" who can stand beside me totally surrounded with me and do as I do without ever getting caught!!!!! There is a long story behind this!!!!!! ..and a very special secret!!!!!
Look very carefully at my basic retention vanish >. Click > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LP0q1rtco "MICKEY SILVER" |
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Posted: Oct 30, 2013 12:17 pm 
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