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Curtis Kam 1960 - 2025 same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts 
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Or, we can actually test these suppositions on the very brains of the audience: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3202226/
Aside from the more specific conclusions the researchers draw in that article, (which I think are dubious) notice how resilient the false transfer (toss retention) illusion is to repeated viewings. The "it's in the other hand" conclusion is demonstrably less frequent than the above sources suggest.
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 3003 Posts
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Quote:
The "it's in the other hand" conclusion is demonstrably less frequent than the above sources suggest. Remembering my own reactions before learning how to do this stuff, I agree, Curtis. Say what they will, however, in live performance, I think it's especially important the magician's head is on his shoulders.  |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-09-16 17:38, funsway wrote: The idea seems o be a good one but it's diificult to apply it in context. Maybe it's more about theory than about performance because showing the "empty" hand empty when it isn't requires some move or sleight and it's better to avoid that. Using a wand (as we do in cups and ball) is a way to put the "empty" hand out of play whithout arousing suspicion. We have to break the connection between the 2 hands. Using a wand is a way to achieve that. Is there other ways? Sure ... |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-09-16 23:02, Curtis Kam wrote: Thanks for the link I haven't read the article yet but it will be an interesting one...sure |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27464 Posts
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Much dubious.
try instead with a couple of hats. then ask the volunteer if they wanted to have the most money would they pick what's in the hat on the left or the one on the right. science, experimental design in particular, is not so easy. btw, Mac does a great false transfer - kudos.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 3003 Posts
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 :) |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-09-16 23:02, Curtis Kam wrote: Come on Curtis, You are one of the top masters in coin magic. Do you really believe what these naive "scientists" claim? Do you believe (I know you don't) that Ramsay was an idiot when he stated "If you want them to look at you look at them, if you want them to look at something, look at it yourself" Do you think that when Malini was asked what the secret behind his magic was, and answered "It's in the eye", he was lying. I know that I'm not teaching you anything that you don't already know but the conditions of these scientists experiment is flawed. They analyze the visual deceptiveness of a vanish (the back and forth tossing from hand to hand) that, apart in Al Goshman's hand, isn't really "magic" because it is "confusing" (and as The Professor used ot say "if there is confusion, there is no magic") I love the article you quote because I would hate scientists to understand how magic works and, by personal experience (which is definitely not unique) scientists are the easiest people to fool exactly because they search in the (wrong) direction - as clearly obvious in this article. Frankly I was more disturbed by the experiments where a gorilla was made to walk across a basket ball match and people not noticing it, or by the film of two people discussing across a table where everything was progressively changing (the clothings, the objects on the table, the table cloth, the chairs and even the two protagonists themselves) without the audience noticing it. The reason why in YOUR performances, people don't look at the other hand is that misdirection has become a second nature with you to such an extent that you don't have to think about it any more: it's part of your natural movements. Here we are talking between people who haven't reach your level of perfection but want to get there. The quoted "scientific" article goes diametrically in the opposite direction. (and I take this opportunity to tell you that I hope to see you soon to exchange some advanced ideas and hope that, in the meantime, you are well)
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27464 Posts
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The gorilla in the counting task video was a "just noticeable" feature. We need better than half the people and half the time levels of deception.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Here a little scenario :
1 - False transfert (using an In Transit action) : The false transfert itself doesn't need to be a "perfect simulation". If you do it in a relaxation moment ("temps faible" as Merlin say), a simple false transfert is OK. The whole picture (a little blurred because nobody focuses on the move but they perceive the whole picture of someone putting a coin in the other hand in order to do something else with the hand) is more important than a ROV in this case. They don't need to focuse their eye on your hand to understand why you put the coin oin the other hand. So the whole picture is more natural and effective. 2 - With the "empty" hand, pat with the end of the finger the top of a little box (Okito for example) 3 - Put the other hand above the box and pause (Obliteration parenthesis). In fact the Obliteration parenthesis begins in phase 2 4 - Move the left fingers and show that the coin has vanished 5 - Produce the duplicate from the box (even with this phase, the scenario works) The more important things are : - False transfert (whole picture, not a mfocused move) - In Transit action (The more the main action is visible, the better it is = example : Taking an other coin which is on the table, make it click onto the box, putting it back on the table) - Time delay |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27464 Posts
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Until you show them otherwise your audience will accept your actions at face value.
Once you show them otherwise...
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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I haven't read the test (CF link by Curtis Kam) but the few I saw makes me think that the protocole seems to be very different from what we do in a magic performance.
Because it is a test, they don't create a magic athmospher. It is as they give the explanation with the demonstration. But it seems interesting yet. |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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A little error
I wanted to say : 5 - Produce the duplicate from the box (even WITHOUT this phase, the scenario works) |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Magicians of old time knew less moves and principles than us but most of them were (moves and principles) good one.
Example : the use of a wand to vanish an object. Imagine that you don't use the wand but you don't want people to think that you have kept the coin in the LH during a (false) transfert. In order to avoid that, you show the RH empty (Goshman pinch). But showing the RH "empty" dosen't give more conviction. You have just moved the Magic concept to Puzzle concept. If you had really the capacity to vanih a coin, you don't need to show the other hand empty. It makes non sense. even If you use a wand (you take it after the false transfert), not only you don't need to show the RH empty (if you could put the wand back on the table and show the RH empty too, it will have no sense at all) but people will not think that you use a false transfert. The RH is completly disconnected to the vanish process. |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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What makes a vanish deceptive? The perfect simulation of a transfer or the misdirection around a false transfer ?
The perfect simulation of a transfert : It is a very good illusion but you have to put something after to be a convincing and enduring one The misdirection around a false transfert : I think it is more powerfull but there is some drawbacks too |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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What makes a vanish deceptive? The perfect simulation of a transfer or the misdirection around a false transfer ?
May be a key to the answer is : After a (convincing false) transfert, you have to put a thought in the spectator's mind 1 - When you use a wand, it's rather automatic because the spectator think "where is the coin" and no "how did he do it?". It works if you have a reason to vanish the coin. 2 - If you do an action after the transfert (example : tap a box with the right fingers), the spectator ask himself why you do this. It is as you can control the spectator's mind. In addition, puting a thought in the spectator's mind is as you construct a wall between the method and the reconstruction of the method. There are more subtle examples but it is the direction... |
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gregg webb Inner circle 1564 Posts
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Every time I get to meet with Sol Stone he reminds me that a fake "take" is more magical than a fake "put", meaning that instead of pretending to put a coin into, say, your left hand but really not putting it there, that we instead show a coin on our hand and that we pretend to pick up and take away that coin with the other hand. In reality the coin remains where it was (ready to be finger palmed or classic palmed) and then the palming hand does a wrist kill to hide the coin and attention is on the hand that supposedly took the coin. I believe Sol got this from Slydini. In my lifetime I also saw Tony do both ways-from finger palm position and from classic palm position. If he was going to use classic-palm position, he'd point to the coin and actually press it into his palm a little to help insure that his upcoming classic palm was the best it could be. These days I've noticed that not many magicians can't classic palm well, sorry, so I would recommend using the finger-palm position. This move can be so simple as to only be timing of the fake pick-up with the wrist kill and the acting as if the coin is in the hand that pretends to have picked up the coin. So it is the opposite of a fake transfer, yet the coin isn't where they think. Enjoy, and regards from Gregg Webb
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27464 Posts
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A take action can suggest an intent to take the coin somewhere. A put action makes the place put a focus of attention.
Either way it helps to have something better than "and now a sleight" for the audience to fill in as motivation for the action.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Mb217 Inner circle 9674 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-09-19 15:31, Jiceh wrote: What makes it all believable, credible or so deceptive? Beyond doing the basic mechanics properly, one word, "Attitude." 
It's all suppose to be as if you did whatever it is you want the spec to believe. Your body language and presence should support it and it will be taken that way. If you think about it too long or show any such uncertainty, you may create that in the mind of the spec as well. Most times not though, because all this stuff goes by so fast within a presentation, it's almost like someone, while driving by in a car, being asked about a specific leaf on a tree. You have to slow all this stuff down to a crawl almost to discuss the nuts and bolts specs do not even realize holding it all together, many times even when you presents something poorly, they don't notice it. My dad used to say, "Stop looking up the steps and start getting up the steps."
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27464 Posts
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It's the attitude, or congruence if you want to use the technical term, of the character as seen by the audience
which elicits some conviction in the audience. It's about what they feel like believing based upon what they perceive as really happening. Your own attitude is a private matter.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8834 Posts
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Belief, self talk, mind script that is believable to our audience of 1 or 100....
One of my favorites in theory seems like it would not work. The hand "tossing the coin" come nowhere near the other hand, but folks see it.(meaning the coin..without a retention of vision usual move) I remember back, when I knew nothing about coin magic, seeing Goshman execute this great move. I have used it succesfully for many years. These days I know less about coin magic, and continue to learn. Harris
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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Posted: Sep 17, 2013 03:02 am 
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