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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts 
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What if the audience sees you quietly sprinkle a little something onto the palm of your hand - which you then keep palm up and relatively motionless, before you place the coin onto the palm of your hand. And what if after the magic is shown to have happened when you open your hand - you make an action as if to remove the invisible residue of that invisible something special they might have noticed from before? IE use the hackney's woofle dust as if it were a secret method in terms of your actions yet not necessarily part of your patter - as if it were secret.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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MICKEY SILVER Elite user Boston, Ma. 442 Posts
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Quite honestly I can not do coin magic like anyone else......I have tried many times and failed miserably!!!! First of all when I do coin Magic I do it with the momentum of my body movements at all times...... I love for people to strictly visually watch me perform without having to think first ....... I want my audience to relax , watch , enjoy and actually see the impossible happen before their eyes...... NOW when I'm done -The only thing I want them to be thinking is OMG , OMG "DO IT AGAIN" ..... !!!!!!!
..Here is a routine were the actions speak themself, which is good because I don't have to speak and confuse people- I put 3 coins into my hand and I magically make the coins fly one at a time into the other hand!!!! This routine is impossible to be figured out by those who do not understand the basic principle of coin magic!!! "I MEAN TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE!!!! I GUESS THIS IS MICKEY SLIVER'S TAKE ON 3 fly!!!! Look closely...... This routine is done extremely slow "YET" Ironically people tell me all the time they can't believe how fast my hands are..... THIS IS ALL DUE TO THE FALSE TRANSFER!!!! >>>> LOOK CAREFULLY, STUDY THE MOVEMENTS!!! >> "CLICK >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlYLZpfEqfM MICKEY SILVER |
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bowers Inner circle Oakboro N.C. 7024 Posts
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Mickey that was wickedly awesome my friend.
No one does coin magic like you do. Todd |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-05 21:57, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Amazing idea It can be even better in a multi phases routine because your suggestion gives the possibility to use a feint (you can show that nothing happens when you don't use the little "something")and permits to condition the audience to the transfer. In addition, it needs time to anchor this curious "concept" in the spectator's mind (it is like the presentation of "Hanging coins". If you do it only once, it is difficult for the spectators to really appreciate it). So a multi phases routine using your idea can be interesting. Have you ever try it? |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5208 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-05 22:13, MICKEY SILVER wrote: That was beautiful, thanks.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5208 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-05 21:57, Jonathan Townsend wrote: That is what mentalists have been doing for a long time--the implied (false) method. "Keep your chin up, look directly at me..." Nice to see that idea applied to other realms.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-05 22:13, MICKEY SILVER wrote: You are fabulous Mickey! |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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Quote: The real thing - not a fable. Live and in person that's what happens. At the table or standing working for a group. Watch his audiences. On 2013-11-06 14:00, Jiceh wrote: 
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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Jon,
Who would argue with the style or the characters of master performers like David Roth, Mickey Silver, David Willliamson, Al Schneider, Mike Gallo...? Here we're not trying to tell masters what they should do. We are trying to condensate some sequences that brings us, the less well known but careful students of them, closer to their technical misdirection level. That's why our scope is limited (as you underline). Does it means that it isn't useful? The number of readers of this thread and the contributions, next to the masters, of lesser known performers tends to indicate that these exchanges were both interesting and useful. There are other threads lead by Pop Haydn dealing with the building of characters where your contributions are also priceless but please consider our search as we totally respect the fact that what we are envisioning here does not encompasses magic in its entirety. It's just one thread on a topic... and an important one Now I like your idea of the "something" placed in the palm up left hand beforehand... actually I think it is a superb idea. Thanks for sharing it here. Now I'm not arguing that a (siilent or overt) script, character, emotions, conflicts, resolutions of conflict are not important. It just seem to me that they are paramount but that we have to isolate some of the action to try and improve on ourselves inters of misdirection and scratch the surface of showmanship. If I understand that your respect for top quality magic cannot be satisfied by what we are sharing here, but since it is already elevating us above the average level of magicians, it may not be wise to discard it in the name of the perfection reached by master each in his own style.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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It's one thing to do a passable impression of someone who does a credible false transfer. There are Slydini students who turn Italian when they take out their purse of coins and begin "I'm gonna show you..." almost in his accent. There is at least one Slydini student who is Italian I've seen do the material well (okay J*, just about perfectly
 ) and the mannerisms fit well enough to be appropriate. Another magician (and Café member) took lessons and uses the sleights but has his own style. He does not turn into a little Italian guy when he does magic. He stays in his own character.
It's a different thing to find the purpose of a coin transfer in ones routines. That "just so" placement of props, timing and spoken text that makes the transfer incidental to the larger flow of action. One guy could sometimes (see Jean Hugard's report to Vernon) have those incidental actions occur in moments where the audience is thinking about something else - operationally like a cups and balls final load. It's still a different thing to have a false transfer that stands close scrutiny. What would you like to do first: To do the impression? To adapt existing methods to serve your routine so you can focus on presenting the magical outcomes later on? To invite the audience to burn your hands with a fixed gaze and have them deceived none the less? Many settle for item two with a passable false transfer covered by a larger "moment" - and put their efforts into developing "the eye". Thank you Msr. Robert-Houdin.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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fringeMagic New user Fort Worth, TX 33 Posts
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This may be quite a reduction to an obviously diverse subject, but my takeaway from these wonderful thought provoking responses comes down to confidence.
A key aspect of a retention vanish is "believing" the coin is actually in your hand; the naturally established appearance & unconscious mechanics of a "real" transfer must coincide with that of your false transfer. You convince yourself(the receiving hand) that it actually receives a coin; therefore, you no longer have to think about the move or the motivation for it. If You have no doubt in the (apparent)intent of the transfer, neither will a spectator. This is where David Roth and Mickey Silver's technique converge. David's retention pass is executed with no excess thought or superficial "design" relative to any other movements/gestures; likewise, although Mickey's pass displays more aesthetic complexity, it is still executed with identical consistency and seamless confidence of any other significant/relevant movement and gesture. I'm not a football fan, but an interesting simile might compare an effective offensive play when properly utilized. A complicated approach to a false transfer might attempt to "go around" the immediate perception of an observer; however, the simple & confident execution of a false transfer evades perception by "going right down the middle", lol. The unifying mechanism in all of these techniques boils down to confidence and consistency; not just in a sleight/pass but in Every functional or meaningful motion. Generally, the harder you have to think about a sleight the harder the observer will think about it. |
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funsway Eternal Order old things in new ways - new things in old ways 10309 Posts
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" Generally, the harder you have to think about a sleight the harder the observer will think about it."
the term I was taught back in 1959 was "automaticity" (Harry Schilling) I once suggested to Mickey Silver that his ability to perform completely surrounded came from automatically selecting the ideal combination of moves and sleights for the situation "without and conscious thought." He did not deny it -- "not giving the idea a second thought"
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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To do, know and effectively communicate an operational understanding (not just get someone to do a passable imitation) are distinct and unrelated skills. Birds don't teach you how to fly. A horse can't explain how it knows when to shift its gait from trot to gallop.
Writing pages about how it feels to watch birds fly or horses gallop does little to advance the sciences of aerodynamics or biomechanics. Or perhaps you can convince me otherwise.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8834 Posts
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I appreciated Mickey S., David R, Larry J,Slydini, Albert G. for who and what the do/did.
I can read many books on magic. But reading does not make anything disappear. Well it can make my having to do the laundry vanish for awhile. My approach to vanishes and magic has changed over the years. Harris with 16 days left in his 5th decade!
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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We could also adapt the cockroach pass to a one handed coin vanish... but we had the ambition to be a little subtle.
PS: For the cockroach pass, seem to see a cockroach running on the floor an slap your sole on it. During this misdirection, do the pass. We could invent the cockroach one hand vanish and pocket the coin directly... Possibly with an Italian accent so that Jon gets fully satisfied. After all this is a character's style, rarely seen admittedly, but a character's style nevertheless... :)
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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How, specifiably and beyond a negative example, does a crude and inappropriate New York roach joke used by Derek Dingle improve anyone else's understanding or ability as far as suitable approach to manage a false transfer?
IMHO magician as impressionist is trite and doing the impressions as if possessed by the props is not exactly advancing the craft. Any other ideas?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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funsway Eternal Order old things in new ways - new things in old ways 10309 Posts
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OK, Jonathan. If one assumes that the flash of the coin in the receiving hand is important, then one might attempt to learn from the "greats" as to how to master this technique. And I would agree that reading articles on "Persistence of Vision" will not help in learning this technique.
Alternately, one might take the view offered by other "greats" that the flash is not essential to creating the illusion of the coin apparently be "retained" in the hand. The choice of which approach to follow is enhanced by threads like this one. A third choice is to use a "flash-feke" to create a visual image of the coin in the receiving hand even though it is elsewhere. The advantage is that the subtle flash can serve as Directed Focus to mask the ditching of the coin in the passing hand. This technique does not require emulating any "great" or even a great deal of practice. A bit of foil on your thumb nail can allow you to perform a better Retention Vanish than most coin masters. So now some here have learned a new technique not offered by the Greats and learnable only by reading this thread (I have no knowledge of any book or DVD discussing this approach). So, any reader that desires more information of "flash-feke" can contact me -- something only possible by wading through this thread -- and never by observing notable performers perfecting a False Transfer. To the extend that your negative comments about discussing the Retention Vanish could prevent a student of magic from learning something of value. What "operational understanding" are your tying to communicate? The shift from Explicit Knowledge to Tacit Knowledge (Transitional Knowledge) is enhanced by exploring alternative theories and exceptions. I would offer that ideas and question offered by those not considered "greats" is essential to such enhancement of Knowledge of coin techniques and performance magic in general. In comparison, simply relying on "believing" in the approach of any single expert is a poor substitute. I challenge your right/competence to decry any other person's approach to studying or learning magic. Even your suggestion that "advancing the craft" is a necessary or desirable goal is a very bigoted point of view.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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Studying the craft - learning who's done what and trying many styles and approaches is a great way to learn. What works for you in performance? Go with that as a start. That's a fine way to learn by doing. Learning and finding things that work for you is not about advancing the craft. Finding out later that something that works for you can work for others might be part of advancing the craft. Finding where your work fits relative to what's known and recorded in the craft and what's novel in your work is part of advancing the craft. What advantages are offered, what restrictions are set, what must the performer do and what can't the performer do that they were able to do when using prior methods.
Okay back to the false transfer and credibility. Quote:
On 2013-11-07 18:21, funsway wrote: okay it can be a nice subtly for those who happen to be watching - but at what cost? Does that flash merit making the transfer suspicious or focusing attention on a moment that has no other value than to show off a sleight? Robert-Houdin wrote some about performing tricks - beginner section reading. As to finding what works for you - please do. That seems to be what folks like Slydini, Roth, Mickey Silver have done so maybe that's sufficient example to push toward "what works for YOU". Having found it, understanding it can be a tough task of its own. Being able to reliably explain it in a way that others can apply to their own style and "it" is a different challenge. The flash gimmick might be a fine tool. I'm not sure that it is itself a false transfer - but rather an enhancement that permits coin/no coin hand display. There's a full coin display item described in Bobo's in the Stanly Collins section used in a Miser's Dream context. I expect your item is less cumbersome and easier to have in hand.
Asking what can make a false transfer credible instead of asking what can make ones false transfer appear less than credible puts us at two removes from the simple notion that the audience is ready to accept actions at face value until they are shown unexpected consequences of supposedly mundane actions. If you transfer the coin - it's where it should be. If you introduce doubt in the matter you may also get them wondering about other things from before and perhaps later.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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Getting personal?
I learned and can use retention sleights in routine. My transfers are nowhere near as focused or framed as Mickey Silver's - nor as precise as David Roth's. I even do the "French Drop" as a retention pass. Also extended the Schneider Snap back vanish to get a retention pass that leaves the coin in Edge Grip. Not disparaging the retention studies here. Just focusing on the OP question about credibility. I take the position that the performer is better off establishing their credible actions and modeling their false transfers on their mundane (non sleight) actions. I believe that each performer can find, from audience feedback, what works for them. Try it all and see what they like
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4840 Posts
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This topic is facinating. As I look through the posts, there is a lot of theory. I would say that most magicians get a feel of what is right for them by experience and instinct. The purpose of theory is to read it all, and get a feel of what would work for you. My few thoughts here. One - you direct the focus of their attention through your movement, and visual focus. You prevent the opportunity to let them guess where the coin is by your next action. This is MOST IMPORTANT!!! And last, if you don't want them to think its in the other hand, show both hands empty!! How? One way is to have your departing hand look so natural, it avoids attention. Second, there are more than a few ways to show your hands empty, without detestable hand washing (which actually only goes to show how clever you are, not that your hands are empty - just my opinion here, not going to discuss this further). One way is using stealth palm (oh yeah, stealth palm Baby!!) - see NYCMS dvd set. Another way is to use a movement I believe I taught on the same DVD set, but will also be teaching in the Penguin live lecture on Nov 10. Briefly, its a way to transfer the hidden coin to nowhere palm in the act of making the coin vanish. I am sure more than a few people have thought of their own way to accomplish this. Then there is matting, sleeving, topit, cuffing, etc. Stick with what works for you, and don't make the vanish the center of your universe. It is only a part of the magic, and how you use it will determine how successful you are. Hope this helps someone!!
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Posted: Nov 6, 2013 02:57 am 
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