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funsway Eternal Order old things in new ways - new things in old ways 10314 Posts 
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A couple of fine posts this morning, Jonathan
"If you transfer the coin - it's where it should be. If you introduce doubt in the matter you may also get them wondering about other things from before and perhaps later." A seed for new Thread? Sounds like an exciting and vital topic.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-07 15:28, Lawrence O wrote: Is the cockroach pass a variation of the spider vanish (but less subtle)? ;-) |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-07 18:21, funsway wrote: Excellent and brilliant! |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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What makes a false transfer any less credible than an actual transfer?
What else must be working to erode the audiences confidence in your actions?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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fonda57 Inner circle chicago 3103 Posts
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I've seen David Roth perform in person and when he does a retention pass it looks like the coin goes into his hand. It just does. It doesn't look like he is "doing" a retention pass, it looks like the coin went into his hand.
Roth and Williamson and all of those mentioned earlier are as great as they are because they have performed for people for years, real live people. I once saw Williamson make a coin vanish from one hand and it did not seem that he "did" anything other than shake his hand and the coin was gone. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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Great fonda57, how did you find their false transfers credible? How did you know they used false transfers?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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Sometimes I wonder if using convincers when trying to mitigate suspicion about transfers is about like offering a picture of a green light when accused of running a red light.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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fonda57 Inner circle chicago 3103 Posts
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I only knew that Roth used a false transfer because he said he did, otherwise you would not know, or I wouldn't, anyway. When he says, "I'll place a coin here and it will vanish and will appear over here," you just beleive it. I don't know exactly what Williamson did, I assume it was some kind of back clip, but I don't know, and I didn't ask.
The Roth thing was at a convention in D.C. and there was not enough people in attendance for a lecture, maybe 5 of us altogether, so he said let's just sit at a table and talk magic, and talk magic he did. When he does the retention pass there's no telegraphing "hey, I'm going to do a move" action, he just does it. As Mr. Rubenstein pointed out, the sleight is just the means to an end, and that's the way Roth did it, on the off beat, as he addressed someone or whatever. The bottom line was that everything looked really magical. I remembered the Williamson thing for so many years simply because it looked like magic, the coin was there, and then it wasn't. I studied Williamson's Floating Assembly in great detail, and still when he showed it to me it was the magical thing I'd ever seen. I've since strived for that in my own performances--apparently very little motion, action, but a lot of magic. |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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I definitely like when members here sayy good things about great magicians and the emotions that it triggered into each and any of us.
Now the initial quest of this thread was to split hair to find out what spices theses masters where using. We were lucky to have from the start Al Schneider, but also Curtis Kam, Jonathan Townsend, Mickey Silver, Funsway, now Michael Rubinstein*... and some precious posts from less famous but obviously thoughtful magicians like Jiceh. This thread has become really interesting. Maybe we should go back into the discussion of gaze and chest management at each step of a false transfer? * Michael I like this drawing done for your Penguin Live lecture: I would have bought the lecture anyways but this adds to the pleasure. Congratulations
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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If someone tells me that they believe audiences find their false transfers somehow suspicious I'd have to ask them for clarification.
Is it that after a few passes the audiences is catching on? Is this about the audience noticing something about the action itself - hand tension, a flinch, a change in speed of action or language? The former - a matter of losing surprise and perhaps making the trick too direct when considered can be addressed with the design of routine. The latter - a physical matter of doing more than the apparent actions of a transfer brings up matter of the design of the sleight and how ones hand needs to move secretly. I suspect for most of us it's a combination of the two. Mickey seems to have managed the first by perfecting his answer to the second. :)
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 3006 Posts
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I'd say Dariel Fitzkee's Magic by Misdirection is one of the best theory texts I've seen covering this. I recall the chapters on Simulation and Dissimulation, especially.
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fonda57 Inner circle chicago 3103 Posts
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I wasn't just taking a stroll down memory lane, the point was that what these guys did to make the false transfers credible we all know. We read books and watch dvd's and attend lectures and all, and we know technically what they are doing. But what these invididuals are doing is what they themselves discovered through their own experiments through performing and their love of magic.
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funsway Eternal Order old things in new ways - new things in old ways 10314 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-08 08:25, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I've been musing a bit on this question -- wondering how many comments above about an observed False Transfer were base don an assumption of its use rather than any evidence of that technique being employed. Since the theme here is relative credibility of such things it is easy to overlay all vanishes involving two hands with that patina. Does this exploration of the False Transfer place an undue weight on its use over other methods? Will potential heightened skill in making a False Transfer "pass without notice" detract from a student from exploring alternative methods? If we review previous posts here as Etienne suggests with a view to body movements, should we not also ask how the same result (vanish, change, multiply,etc) be achieve by using some other method -- at least if the moves are to be repeated? Perhaps we should look at a simple scenario" An object held in one hand is subsequently handled by the other hand and later on some magical result is revealed. For any effect several questions should be asked in deciding whether a False Transfer should be employed (and which one) a) can the audience follow the steps without confusion? b) are the planned Sleights appropriate for the objects used or setting or angles or lighting c) what anticipations or doubts are created by previous or subsequent actions? d) what combination of Sleights, Moves and Subtleties will allow me to ACT most naturally or consistent with character. others????
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-08 20:10, Jonathan Townsend wrote: A few things to avoid : - bad execution of the move - too much attention on the transfer (using a transfer in an illogical sequence is an aggravating factor) : the transfer is not the effect... - using a "challenge" presentation (it's an way to invite the spectator to thing about method) - wrong place, wrong time, bad rythm (too different from the way you move) - effect too linear with the method - too much repetition - patter which puts attention on the method (transfer) rather than on the effect (vanish) - bad design ... |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5208 Posts
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-a trained actor would strive to make sure that the intention (thought, objective) at the time of the false transfer was the same as the intention (thought, objective) would be during the regular transfer. Usually, in a magic routine, that intention has nothing to do with the transfer at all.
I've seen this happen all the time in the theatre. You are in a play and the first night a line you say gets a huge laugh; the next night it dies. Why? Often what happens is that the first night you were playing the character's intention (e.g. I must hide the money from my wife). The audience laughs. On the second night, the night it doesn't work at all, the audience doesn't laugh because you changed your intention to: I must make the audience laugh. Going back to the intention of the story almost always remedies the situation and returns the laugh. Is my analogy clear or useful at all?
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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MICKEY SILVER Elite user Boston, Ma. 442 Posts
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That older clip of me on you tube doing those retention vanishes are very weak !!! Since then ( 8 years later) I have brought this move to such a high level it is " NOT TO BE BELIEVED" ..... My goal over the years was to let people actually see the coin in my left hand as my right hand is away from it. So understand this: The hands are seen apart from one another and the coin is last see in the left hand. " I ALWAY WONDERED IS THIS POSSIBLE" ??? I did figure it out eventually .....In fact I am going to make a short Video just for you guy's on the Magic Café to see!!!!! It's very inspiring and something all you guy's can do providing you understand the true principle of applying timing to a move. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Much involved to have mastered such a close up illusion, yet in the end it is so simple that every magician and magician hobbyist will not believe they actually took the time and thought so much into the retention vanish when the real secret was to "NOT" to think so much about this move.
Sad to say that some magicians think way to much into a move ..so much that it actually kills the move and prevents them from ever doing it the way they want.........It's a long story. MICKEY SILVER |
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funsway Eternal Order old things in new ways - new things in old ways 10314 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-08 08:25, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I've been musing a bit on this question -- wondering how many comments above about an observed False Transfer were base don an assumption of its use rather than any evidence of that technique being employed. Since the theme here is relative credibility of such things it is easy to overlay all vanishes involving two hands with that patina. Does this exploration of the False Transfer place an undue weight on its use over other methods? Will potential heightened skill in making a False Transfer "pass without notice" detract from a student from exploring alternative methods? If we review previous posts here as Etienne suggests with a view to body movements, should we not also ask how the same result (vanish, change, multiply,etc) be achieve by using some other method -- at least if the moves are to be repeated? Perhaps we should look at a simple scenario" An object held in one hand is subsequently handled by the other hand and later on some magical result is revealed. For any effect several questions should be asked in deciding whether a False Transfer should be employed (and which one) a) can the audience follow the steps without confusion? b) are the planned Sleights appropriate for the objects used or setting or angles or lighting c) what anticipations or doubts are created by previous or subsequent actions? d) what combination of Sleights, Moves and Subtleties will allow me to ACT most naturally or consistent with character. others????
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 3006 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-09 08:42, landmark wrote: Have you read Magic by Misdirection, landmark? Your analogy is very clear and indeed useful. One would have to confirm with the actor, that he was playing an inappropriate objective, though, as audience reaction can vary audience to audience, and the audience members themselves can influence the reaction of the whole. Your analogy certainly presents what I believe is the pressing issue for magicians: to play the appropriate objective. And to play it truly and wholly. |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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Hello MagicaLaurie
Most of the people writing here are well aware of Fitzkee's work on simulation/dissimulation. In fact the reason for this thread finds its roots in Fitzkee as a perfect simulation/dissimulation is sufficient to convince (visually and intellectually) but isn't sufficient to persuade (emotionally) that the coin actually is in the left hand (supposing that it was initially shown at the right fingertips) If you read the first pages of this thread, you'll find that persuasion cannot be reduced to perfect simulation/dissimulation and this thread is trying to share the experience of performers that succeed not having the spectators, after being exposed to a perfect simulation/dissimulation, come to the conclusion that even though they were really visually fooled, the coin could only be in the other hand. Thus we seem to have come to the conclusion that some work immediately around the transfer has to exceed the transfer itself. Several of us have brought interesting ideas and we'd be glad to benefit from your own experience about what creates the feeling of wholly and truly
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 3006 Posts
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While most of the people writing here may be well aware of Fitzkee's work on simulation and dissimulation, I haven't seen his name mentioned prior. For what it's worth, although I gave special mention to the chapters on simulation and dissimulation, I also referred to the entire book Magic by Misdirection. You exclude Fitzkee's emphasis on psychological simulation, I think. Dissimulation, as well, could use further addressing. And I think you and a few others have misunderstood Jonathan's attempts to address the root concern, as well.
Fitzkee said it quite well in 1945, so I'll quote from p.37 of Magic by Misdirection, here: "This business, this combination of controlled movements, calculated words, studied posture, shifting attention, convincing and natural in appearance, is the process of interpreting for the spectators. The performer construes it, this series of happenings, so that the spectator will understand it as the performer's individual interests require. It cannot be carelessly done. Great skill and nice judgement are necessary. It must be natural. It must be convincing. It must truly represent and express the action it seems to be. Any bit of artificiality will destroy the sense the performer is trying to convey. Any unnaturalness- whether it be posture, action, comment or other- will reveal it to be false. If it is revealed to be false, it will not seem to express the performer's true thoughts and purposes. Therefore, it will fail to deceive." |
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » What makes a false transfer credible ? (7 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Nov 8, 2013 10:28 am 
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