Happy to say that some magicians (and me) think that a way to see good magic is to look at yours.
We are waiting for your video with impatience

I hope one day you will share your secrets (book or video) and your mastering of timing and control of space and time.

About the retention vanish :

The illusion is REALLY great but it's an ephemeral one. Once broken the charm, you have to continue. It doesn't mean that you have to show something else (production of the coin ...) but you must keep busy the spectator's mind (may be in relation with the magic atmosphere you created).

So, after you have created an "illusion", you have to assume it...

@ Magicalaurie
Your quote is very interesting and highlights exactly what this thread has been about: "this combination of controlled movements, calculated words, studied posture, shifting attention, convincing and natural in appearance, is the process of interpreting for the spectators. The performer construes it, this series of happenings, so that the spectator will understand it as" the coin actually vanished and, even in afterthoughts, isn't in the other hand (which is the aim of this specific thread)

So I feel grateful for you having brought this quote up. Now what is your own personal detailed application to a coin vanish of the quote you kindly reminded us ?

Jiceh, unless you are out willing things to be as you wish - demonstrating your actual ability to effect reality with technology that conveys your will (or the will of others) as you see fit ... then Robert-Houdin's definition of the performer as actor playing the part of someone who does such things and has such things might serve us. The skill of "making it real for the audience" is acting.

Play the appropriate objective.

now sure what you mean by play, appropriate or objective there. Please elaborate.

I think you know, Jon. It's the objective opposite to the one Etienne keeps expressing with his fussing that the audience has decided it's in the other hand.
In this case, then, the appropriate objective to play is one which causes the coin to vanish.

As it happens I don't know.
My character uses magic and magical tools. He uses gesture, ritual and enhanced objects during his show-and-tell times.
Me... I work very hard to make that character present and congruent and relatable in performance - while using whatever "backstage" methods serve the show.
Outside the show I try to take in feedback about what worked for audiences and what they perceived about the character in action to bring into rewrite and blocking, practice and rehearsal.

Well, you're off to a good start. I say your earlier posts in this thread indicate at least that much, as well.

A little food for thought here:


http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&forum=3

Magicalaurie,

I'm not really expressing any "fussing that the audience has decided that the coin is in the other hand". Actually I don't have this problem and was trying to share why I don't and getting others explaining why, with a different approach, don't either. Yet some magicians in the Magic Café have that problem and I was hoping to have possibly more seasoned magicians to share their approach in a practical way to help the ones who do.
Since you don't have that problem, fine, but I don't see the need to become agressive with me

Now since you seem to be interested in past written references, here are a few, next to the excellent Fitzkee ones, that may come useful on our topic

Gaining attention
Nelms, Henning: Magic and Showmanship
Ortiz, Darwin: Strong Magic
Burger, Eugene & Robert Neale Magic and meaning

Management of magic:
Clear and consistent effect
Wonder, Tommy Books of Wonder
Leech, Al: Don’t Look Now, the smart art of misdirection
Ortiz, Darwin Designing Miracles
Schneider, Al The Theory and Practice of Magic Deception
Schneider, Al The Al Schneider Technique (DVD series)

Clear and consistent moves
Ascanio, Arturo: The Magic of Ascanio Vol 1
Tamariz, Juan: Five Magical Points
Schneider, Al The Theory and Practice of Magic Deception
Schneider, Al Al Schneider’s Magic
Fitzkee, Dariel Magic by misdirection
Fitzkee, Dariel Magic and showmanship
Barlotta, Dennis The Master of Misdirection
Slydini, Tony The Best of Slydini and More
Slydini, Tony The Magical World of Slydini.

Sustaining attention
Body language
Slydini, Tony The Best of Slydini and More
Slydini, Tony The Magical World of Slydini.
Nierenberg, Gerard How to Read a Person Like a Book
Knepper, Kenton Wonder Words
Knepper, Kenton Secrets of Indirection
Knepper, Kenton Miracles of Suggestion
Lorenceau, Etienne Le dragon apprivoisé (in French)

Dramatic structure
Ortiz, Darwin: Strong Magic
Ortiz, Darwin: Designing Miracles
Dr Gene Gloye: Theatrical Magic

Logic and visuality
Ascanio, Arturo: The Magic of Ascanio Vol 1
Kurtz, Gary: Leading with your head
Knepper, Kenton Wonder Words
Knepper, Kenton Secrets of Indirection
Knepper, Kenton Miracles of Suggestion
Tamariz, Juan: The Magic Way

Managing the gaze
Ramsay, John Ramsay by Andrew Galloway
Tamariz, Juan: Five Magical Points


Placing the voice
Juan Tamariz: Five Magical Points
Alderson, Richard Complete Handbook of Voice Training

Pacing audience attention
Ammar, Michael The Magic of Michael Ammar “Essay #3”
Lavand, René Lentidigitation Vol I & II
Clark, Tony The new Timing is everything
Lorenceau, Etienne Le dragon apprivoisé
Merlin, Jean Mad Magic (magazine)
Merlin, Jean Premier Livre de Close Up
Barlotta, Dennis The Master of Misdirection

Lawrence, this is a wonderful bibliography on the presentation of magic - always the most difficult and puzzling to the dilitant -and usually the most overlooked.

This is a gift, thank you!

Chuck

I love the story of looking for the coins that were not lost.

Where does the hand end and the coin begin?

When my/our routines have a life of their own...priceless.
I can't remember if that happened first in magic or music.

In music, I used to second guess some of my improvisation.
After THINKING, I had made some bad choices and during a jam, sat quietly during most of the song and through the song, played couple of notes, I was told by a few people that I respect that the notes (2 or 3) fit perfectly.

Since then, I have learned to trust my instincts, crowd control and moves/transfers. Of course sometimes my inner critic...sometimes called fear...wakes up and I become very aware. My programs usually suffer at that time.

Harris
still 2 old to know better...with 9 more days left in "my 50's"

I don't have these books but they seems interesting.
Are they a good choice ?

Can I make a better choice buying an other book in your list (I have : Ortiz, Fitzkee, Schneider, Wonder, Ascanio, Kurtz, Tamariz, Ammar, The magic of Slydini)?
Maybe "Le Dragon apprivoisé"?
;-)

What would lead a person to not believe you performed mundane action?

What are you doing that leads the audience to suspect you are doing a false transfer? Must you do those things?

Le dragon apprivoisé (which is a metaphor for a tamed ego) is only interesting for a managment of the pace of spectators' attention with entertainment and misdirection in mind.

I would recommand Gary Kurz's "Leading With Your Head". I would also recommand to get back to the books you have at least once a year and see how you can practially input in each of your tricks what you feel to make a lot of sense in these books. I find it important to question myself and reconsider how I do things and why quite regularly.
Also get into body language to improve your acting and your foot work and, unless you are already a natural, work at your voice (it's a great misdirection and entertainment tool)

Lawrence
Great advice ! As always. It kind of reminds me of the shrink who holds up his hand to the patient and asks, "what do you see" a wise person can see past the hand and all things around it not just five fingers.

Thanks

I would reccomend performing for people.

Performing a lot is indeed essential ... but, IMHO, only if after each performance, we reconsider without complacency how we could have offered a better performance in terms of entertainment (script, voice, acting, spectators implication, props...) and in terms of magic (misdirection, naturalness, choice of sleights and/or gaffs, gaze management, smile, moments of tension, humor, emotions...) before chosing one topic to improve on during the next performance and rehearse it (rather than just practicing the tricks (which should be second nature anyway when we dare offering them for sharing with an audience)
Genius (apart for row diamonds like David Williamson, and even them...) is 90% homework and 15% impromptu talent. This makes 105%, I know, but we're magicians aren't we...

That's what I meant by performing. You get caught doing a retention pass (or anything else) you will immediatly know what you did wrong, and you will be all the better for it.

If you prepared well enough, you don't get caught, but it shouldn't make you complacent just because you "got away with it". Reconsider, and again, and again... rather than focusing then on other tricks.

There is so much to improve in any of our tricks: feint, body language, script adapted to a chosen character, gaze management, foot work, interaction with the audience, placing the voice, In Transit Actions, Obliteration parenthesis, erasing any form of challenge whether verbal or in gestures, causing the magic, creating the magical moment, revealing the effect... Just on a simple "vanish".

But once we have digested all of this our sharing of magic becomes in return... magical for us.

Back in 2011, our friend Mickey Silver wrote this:
Secret #1 - While performing coin magic my spectators will tend to respond far more favorable to my coin magic if they believe the plan of action came from them. I try to remind them that it was he/she who first decided what hand I used "Left or Right" and then it was them who placed the coin in my hand first. I then explain filled with enthusiasm & animation, the fact that it disappeared blows my mind as well as theirs.... I continue on explaining, I mean, how do you think I feel I'm the one doing it!, It's happening in my hands!, it's impossible!!! ... In fact, it's ridiculous!!! etc., etc..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_DufASYUbc

Secret #2 - When I start showing my coin magic I know I have to make that initial moment (and the first 3 minutes or so) the "very best" I possibly can and the rest of my coin magic will be filtered through it, creating a highly favorable impression with my spectators.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv8fDuu9hlI

Secret #3 - I know the number-one tactic for generating a favorable first impression to my audience while I perform my Coin Magic is the easiest to do: Smile! Smiling accomplishes four powerful things: It conveys confidence, happiness, and enthusiasm, and most important, it shows acceptance.

I know that when I smile it shows my audience that I am pleased to be there with them, giving them that warn inviting feeling as I show my coin magic. In turn they become more interested in seeing me perform my coin magic for them.

When I smile I make myself look very inviting, giving those around me the good feeling of being invited.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se0WkFl-AW4

SECRET #4 - While I'm performing my coin magic and I run into a big mouth, poor sport or just the usual know it all.....I appeal to their Ego !!!

I say to them quietly and closely "I can see that you’re a smart person. OMG I wouldn't try to put anything past you. How could I? You'd be onto me in a heartbeat ....SHHHH maybe you can help me!!!

Those lines alone make them shut up and feel good about themselves as they watch me waiting to help me (I give a glance, wink, smile and hold my index finger up as to say 1 sec.)..

...When I'm all done I ignore them and move on, saying to myself, They got to help me " BY SHUTTING UP"

Appealing to someone’s Ego is a smart move and a winning one!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0QRsddAOAk

SECRET # 5 - I know by giving my audience & spectators respect and attention I gain the one incredible ingredient that is absolutely essential to every great Magician: Charisma! I understand that this elusive trait is gained by showing my spectators how great "THEY" are, not by showing them how wonderful I am.

My spectators will in fact follow me ("The Magician") if I go out of my way to make them feel good and special... "Many creative ways to do this "THINK ABOUT IT"!

I know that by ignoring certain spectator's while performing Magic, this "DOES NOT" show how powerful of a Magician I am, but instead how weak of a Magician I am..." PEOPLE SEE HOW I TREAT OTHERS"


I know that, in order for me to become a great Magician, I must "NOT" try to get my spectator's to believe in me, rather I show my spectators "HOW" to believe in themselves..."MUCH TO THINK ABOUT HERE"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQIIIdQR7Ns&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LP0q1rtco

Tip on Mickey’s ROV
Mickey’s ROV: Please watch carefully and in extreme detail... Notice I do not use my thumb for anything other than to hold the coin with my finger. My thumb is not needed in any way to retract the coin, whatsoever!!!! You know the coin isn't there but your eyes and brain are telling that me it must be there! This is produced by the initial feint!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljTCw1K2EnE