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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5208 Posts 
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Similarly I think, it is true that you cannot see a speeding bullet, but the mechanics behind it being shot and hitting something are the immediate realities we can begin to perceive, rightly or wrongly. Yes, as pro baseball players prove everyday, it is possible to hit a ball speeding by at 90 miles an hour. There is no way that they are tracking the ball as it comes by--they are making lots of assumptions, clues from the pitchers' actions before the ball leaves the hand.
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Lance Pierce Special user 878 Posts
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Me too, I agree with the deeper dive here by Lance. I would only say that as a practical matter, the "chains of assumptions" made by the discerning spec's mind, plays out as the "movements of the eye." It's how we can see the mind working on the matter. Well, again, playing out a technique on video will result in different eye movements than watching a performer standing right in front of the observer. Stripped of context, the onlooker has a completely different set of assumptions in play than when watching a seasoned practitioner do his thing live, and therefore any eye movements tracked will tell a different story. I strongly suspect that if you sat people in front of a video of a coin vanish and simply blurred parts of the screen in a subtle manner at strategic moments, this would also cause a large shift in where the attention (and therefore the eye) goes. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27472 Posts
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Putting a camera on the audience to watch their faces as they attend a performance reads like a good idea. Folks who've worked trade shows can likely offer sufficiently consistent actions to permit analysis across many performances. Paul Gertner ??
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Mb217 Inner circle 9683 Posts
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On 2013-09-30 13:03, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I remember long time back now, Mickey Silver sent me a video (VHS) of himself doing exactly this, putting the camera on the audience while he performed for them. In this way, he could see clearly where they were looking as he presented effects using his brilliant SUV. I would suppose that after a while he just knew where their minds were at all times and clearly that kind of study and analysis helped him to develop what I believe to be one of the very best uses of the RV in effect today, "ever" even. Long time back he showed this to me. 
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27472 Posts
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It comes down to being able to accept the glances, shrugs, eye-rolls and any other body language used as honest feedback... not so easy for some and usually not what's desired for many.
Blank looks are not the same as astonishment. If they're astonished they go quiet - that's what the word means. What you do in that moment is truly all about you.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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gregg webb Inner circle 1564 Posts
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In the context of a routine, it can be easier than just trying to get away with vanishing one coin and thinking no one would look at the other hand. The best names around have all mentioned that if there is a wand or a lighter or a book of matches or another coin to pick up, that the hand that is "holding out" doesn't have to stand up to scrutiny very long since it can pick up one of those objects and it really is only a fraction of a second to move to that object, especially if you've practiced the routine, and at that time, the hand looks better because it is holding something besides the concealed coin, but even more important is that you can do something with the object picked up that will occupy the viewer's minds so maybe they stop wondering if there is anything in the hand such as a coin. Remember, you haven't acted out the vanish yet. Your (let's say) left hand is still acting like it holds something, and you should be looking towards the left hand and doing the picking up of the other object (wand or wand-substitute) without really having to look because you have practiced the routine. Forgive the run-on sentences. Gregg Webb
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27472 Posts
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I'll stick to the conviction that it's better for them to be sure of what you did than for them to be pretty sure you did something else.
Agreed that another prop (wand or wand substitute) can help motivate a transfer. And then having the prop in hand can help cover untoward awkwardness. Using the prop as part of "accounting for the magic" is a wizardly approach. Others like to quietly clear the deck so the magic has room to happen. The Ramsay subtlety can help if one contrives to let an empty palm be seen by any who might be looking at the wrong hand.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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On 2013-10-01 18:43, gregg webb wrote: It's my point of view too well said |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27472 Posts
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The question is how to establish conviction in ones actions, in this case the transfer of a coin to your other hand. Cluttering ones presentation with props and flustered activity is a separate problem.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 11030 Posts
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Make it believable is the answer..
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27472 Posts
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On 2013-10-02 09:04, vinsmagic wrote: how, specifically? offering an impressive illusion is an option. the op asked about creating the audience conviction that the coin is really in the empty hand, that the transfer was honest rather than impressively specious.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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gregg webb Inner circle 1564 Posts
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I was thinking last night, and Jonathan Townsend will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure, but wasn't there a time when the very word 'transfer' was meant for a secret movement of a concealed coin from one grip to another (hopefully invisibly) such as going from thumb palm to finger palm. And, therefore this term wasn't used for a 'pretend placement' or a fake "put". This time in the past that I'm referring to was when I met Roth and Latta at Tannen's in the early '70's. I also remember being fooled by Jonathan Townsend many times at that time. This is almost like the misuse of "Retention" vanish to mean that you Retain the coin in the right hand when pretending to put it in the left hand. Originally it meant Retention of Vision...what we call the 'burn'. Persistence of vision. Retinal Retention. Does anyone else remember the usage of 'transfer' I remember ? Maybe 'fake PUT' or 'pretend placement' are better. Or did I just dream this wrongly ? gregg webb
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27472 Posts
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Yes, David Roth discussed the importance of minimizing finger motion during transfers in his lectures.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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On 2013-10-03 18:06, gregg webb wrote: You're absolutely right but semantics do evolve. ... and for your guidance, since you ar mentioning it, the Retention of Vision Vanish is also a "misnomer" resulting from a sementical evolution since the move was invented and presented for the first time by a French man by the name of M Grivolas. On May 3 1907 in the Theatre Robert-Houdin for the invention competition organized by the Chambre Syndicale de la Prestidigitation, M Grivolas after recording the various existing vanishing techniques presented the “Grivolas Palm”. The French L’Illusioniste Sixieme Annee [sixth year] No 67 Juillet [july] 1907 p 296 to 298 publishes the detailed description of the effect with 6 photographs and of the secret moves behind the sleight with five additional photos. The focus is not on the retention of vision but the moves are exactly what is nowadays known as the Retention of Vision vanish. P 308 a variant is offered with four pictures the right hand, back to the audience, holds the coin at the tip of the first and second fingers, the left hand coming palm towards the audience (fingers pointing up) and curling down over the coin and the two first right fingers before splitting the hands (a stage version of the sleight). It should be underlined that, for economical reasons at the time, L’Illusioniste was only publishing photographic portraits of magician on its front page. Drawings were sometimes joined to the explanation of a sleight but this is the only photographic report on a sleight over the many years of publication. The vanish was then described for the first time in English in Greater Magic p 666 by Dai Vernon (without credit but without claim for its invention) who underlined its "burn" or retention of vision aspect. So my friend you and I seem to be ranting old dogs
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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The vanish was then described for the first time in English in Greater Magic p 666 by Dai Vernon (without credit but without claim for its invention) who underlined its "burn" or retention of vision aspect. Interesting N#page for a "diabolical" vanish ;-) |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27472 Posts
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Etienne, it would help to post an image of the page(s).
Similarly it might surprise some around here to review and consider the coin change and accompanying photos in The Modern Conjuror item "to change a coin" . Also interesting to see photos of these folks. The terms "burn" and "soft" may trace back to Roth. IIRC he's precise when describing a secret transfer or false transfer and keeping discussion of effect distinct from that of methods used to engineer the trickery and both from the scripted accounting for the magic.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 11030 Posts
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Jon look
rice krispies vanish ,.,,,,,,, |
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gregg webb Inner circle 1564 Posts
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Responding to Jonathan, I'm pretty sure I mentioned making them believe the coin is in the hand supposedly placed in PLUS continuing ahead with a routine so they don't have time to start thinking about the other hand. Pretty sure I didn't mention making things cluttered. Picking up a wand may seem wizardly, but picking up another COIN to hold 'as if it were a wand' isn't wizardly...it is good modern magic. In short what I'm saying is that I doubt any fake 'put' will be so good that you can dispense with the 'rest of the routine' and just end there because they're all blown away because the vanish was so good. Regards, Gregg Webb
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27472 Posts
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IMHO "the vanish" is an effect and the false transfer is one of several options available to mange "the method" portion of the script that includes the magical vanish effect.
Getting some distance between the mechanics used and the magical effect demonstration seems a good idea, IMHO Getting back to the performance question - what makes a transfer credible in the first place? What does the audience see or believe about a moment in performance so that they some to expect the item to be in the other hand after the transfer?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8834 Posts
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Anyone see the Brain Games episode on this subject?
Interesting! A side note is how alcohol and other drugs affect perception...and audience members. Anyone work late night comedy clubs...or early morning champagne breakfast events.... or rock concerts...???? Harris who has been studying psychology and people...as long as he has been studying.../playing ...performing coin magic.... (have you????)
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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Posted: Sep 30, 2013 12:51 pm 
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