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nicolasmtg Veteran user Argentina 379 Posts 
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Ok... in general I think that to make a false transfer credibble. We need to transforn that FALSE TRANSFER into a transfer. and to do that we need to have in mind that in real life we constantly do TRANSFERS..we need to think a lil about..why we transfer objects in real life?.
I think that a good exercise would be making a list of normal life transfer goals. For example 1. TO FREE THE HAND TO DO SOMETHING (scratching...say hello...push up our glasses...as a mistake...regret of an upcoming action... having writed this I started to think and I have found something intresting  I think.
this happened into mi mind... ok nico lets write this idea... ok but wait .. maibe we can divide this category (to free a hand to do something) into two. to free a hand to do something CONCIOUSLY and "to free the hands to do something INCONCIOUSLY and I started to check the list to divide them BUT I realized that alll of them are INCONCIOUSLY we don't think on them as a transfer..we just do them inconciously to start..finish or complete an action.
so. they are no percieved as TRANSFERS by us... they are INEXISTENT TRANSFERS. and we can reverse think on that and apply it on our magic to transform our FAKE TRANSFERS into unconcious movements and finaly into TRANSFERS and remember TRANSFERS arent perceived THEY don't EXIST
JUST A LITTLE THOUGH
--------Magician and director at NONTRICKS.COM--------
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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I like the way you are exploring the performing script and the character in the moment for the transfer action.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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nicolasmtg Veteran user Argentina 379 Posts
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Jonathan are you talking about mi thoughs? if that so.. well thank you
I ill love to share more thoughs with you guys I love to think on magic. if you werent talking about mi post haahah UPS SORRY but I still want to share thoughs ahahahahah
(question anyone knows if its posibble to change mi name on the Café I wanna use mi name ) (answer this via mp I dunn wanna disturb the post )
--------Magician and director at NONTRICKS.COM--------
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Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts
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Karrol Hovland was one of my magic students when I lived in Minneapolis, MN in the 70's. I taught him the Schneider Vanish and the Schneider Ball Vanish. He happened to get a job in a magic shop in Hopkins, MN. At the time we were playing with the Ball Vase. The idea was to add sophistication to the standard routine that came with the trick. One day two teenage girls walked into his shop. After looking around a bit they asked him if he did magic. He said yes and brought out a ball vase to show them one of the routines we were working on. He set the vase on the counter, dumped the ball into his right hand, then tossed it into his left. He executed the Schneider Ball Vanish. No wand, no words, just did the move. After a wiggle of the left figners, he opened his hand showing the ball gone. The girls screemed. One grabbed his left arm and stuck their hand into his sleeve. The other grabbed the close up mat and looked under it. The vase went flying. Then the other jumped up on the counter and looked behind it to see if the ball went there. During all this Karrol said he just sweat blood with the ball in right FP position.
Another friend named Jeff Kohagen uses a Schneider Classic Vanish to start of walk around magic when he approaches a table. He says you just flip a coin into the left hand, open it, and the crowd goes wild. I just don't get all this chatter. This technology is now over 40 years old. It's all there. ????? Al Schneider
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-10-04 10:53, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I did place a photo series in the notes on my Facebook page I also wrote an essay on "You Think Your Know The French Drop, Think Again" that applies with photos the principles mentioned in the initial post of this thread. Whenever members of the café ask for it by sending a PM with their email address, I'm happy to send it for free.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-10-13 02:07, Al Schneider wrote: The Schneider Vanish is a fantastic False Transfer and why the perfect simulation it supplies despite the space between the hands works, can definitely be deeply understood by the ones who studied the Gestalt Theory in psychology. The perceptual process is a sequence of steps that begins with the environment and leads to our perception of a stimulus and an action in response to the stimulus. This process is continual, but we do not spend a great deal of time thinking about the actual process that occurs when we perceive the many stimuli that surround us at any given moment. So we group images and movements combining the Law of Pragnanz with the Law of continuity: our minds fill the gaps when there is a simple direction (straight line or soft curve). Now Al's little story on the ball and vase is easily believed: we all had similar experiences now and then. Hysterical people and scientists are the most simple people to fool as they look for the immediately preceding cause to effect relationship. Now this thread is not aiming at arguing with any false transfer or false take. It is aiming at supplying "How To" ways to make it "real magic" for the people having a multi-layer perception (irrespective of the speed at which they rewind what they think they have seen). Actually, Al, in your brilliant Theory and Practice of Magic Deception, the rewinding process and up to where the rewinding goes is superbly analyzed. This thread proposes solutions to bring the rewinding process in another direction than "the other hand": it's generally called misdirection, isn't it?
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts
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No, its called being a nice guy.
The success of magic depends on the performer’s attitude. Someone once explained what magic is. They said magic works like this, “Here’s a quarter. It’s gone. You’re stupid.” Success in magic depends on being interested or interesting. A performer that wants to be interesting wants recognition. Let’s say this guy can really make a coin disappear. Chances are the audience will respond with, “It’s in the other hand.” If the guy shows his other hand MT, the audience may respond with, “It’s up your sleeve.” If the guy shows his sleeve MT, they say, “You dropped it on the floor.” If you show the floor clean, they will say, “The coin was made of tin foil.” The point is that the audience did not see any magic. They saw a challenge and attempt to explain it. With such performers, the audience is set up ahead of time to detect what the deception might be. On the other hand, if a performer is interested in the welfare of the audience, the audience will not feel challenged and will tend to see the magic and applaud it. They may not care if it could be in the other hand for they liked the feeling of seeing a coin in a hand and it suddenly was not there. That feeling can be emotional and pleasant. I often get a response from my audience such as, “Wow, that’s pretty.” This depends on how the audience is set up. Then, the audience can go into the performance attempting to see the magic. That is, they will seek out the feeling of magic. In the case with Karrol, the ladies were not challenged up front. Karrol appears as a soft gentle person. The girls asked to see something. They were in charge. He complied to their wishes. He offered no challenge. My theory is that they were in a mindset to observe what happened before them and not read into it something they did not see. The move is structured so the eye and the mind see the coin in the other hand. The theory is that if the audience says it is in the other hand it is due to grasping for straws not observation. The girls saw magic and were not involved with a personal challenge. Once they saw that there was not coin there they did not challenge Karrol, they just wanted to know where the thing went. By the by, the comment by nicolasmtg "and remember TRANSFERS arent perceived THEY don't EXIST," is very intelligent. Magicians have this mindset that if the audience can't see it, it is invisible. To them, a hand that looks crippled does not suggest a coin could be hidden there. Likewise, if it "looks like" the coin went into the hand doesn't mean the audience saw it go into the hand. Part of the game is to get the audience on your side. When I got into magic I thought people would look up to me for having magic power. As I studied the subject I found out that the audience is the one looked up to. They are the boss. They are the judges. They are the ones with the power we desire. That is why at the end of a performance, we bow to them.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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That someone is Jerry Seinfeld.
IIRC it's in Seinlanguage.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5208 Posts
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Quote:
Part of the game is to get the audience on your side. Thank you for taking the time to impress this idea on us in detail. I will be thinking a lot about the weight you have given this concept and working to put it into practice.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts
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Landmark
I sincerely appreciate your post. And, I would like to give you a tip to aid your endevors. If you are effective, you will stun your audience when you reveal the result of a magic effect. This means the audience will be startled and put in a place they are not accustomed to. In this place they can feel vulnerable. Think about times you have been in an awkward position. I had one once when I flipped my motorcycle. The first thing on my mind was who saw me do a stupid turn. I did not worry about my welfare. I got up, got the bike upright and tried to keep going as if nothing had happened. I worried about my body and bike later. When you fool someone they are in a similiar position. They feel exposed. They are then worried about someone seeing them in this condition. If they see someone looking at them while in this condition, they want to get back to normal like me trying to just ride out as if nothing happened. During a performance, that someone looking could be the magician. So, here is the suggestion. At the point the magic occurs for the audience, do not look at them. Rather, create a pretense to look somewhere else. If a coin disappears, act as if you are looking for where it went or look at the next coin that will disappear or look at your magic wand. The idea is to not look at your audience for that will shut them down and halt any appreciation there was for the magic moment you have worked hard to give them. All the best. Al Schneider
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
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Atom3339 Inner circle Spokane, WA 3242 Posts
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Al, I always enjoy your thinking.
TH
Occupy Your Dream |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 11033 Posts
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The skill of the performer . all else is justis just talk..
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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Is there a better way for a performer to get the audience on his side than to place himself on theirs?
I find Al's tip "At the point the magic occurs for the audience, do not look at them. Rather, create a pretense to look somewhere else. If a coin disappears, act as if you are looking for where it went or look at the next coin that will disappear or look at your magic wand. The idea is to not look at your audience for that will shut them down and halt any appreciation there was for the magic moment you have worked hard to give them" very thought provoking. Al, I'll chew on it because it's exactly the opposite of what I learned from Tony Slydini and my slope had always been (unformulated) in the direction you suggest.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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funsway Eternal Order old things in new ways - new things in old ways 10311 Posts
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To add some morsels to your snack, Etienne, judicious use of eye contact (affirmation, denial, query, etc) is a fundament part of dyadic communication and effective group leadership techniques. It is a matter of orchestration rather than control. Practice in "visual engagement" timing and intensity can be as important as gestures. In performance magic it can effect "directed focus" and "ownership" of the magic moment.
Thus, both Al and Slydini can be correct depending on the objective of the routine/show rather than a single effect. If that objective is to assist the audience in creating a long-term memory (story told grandchildren) of magic, then a balance of timed visual engagement may be ideal. If one is only performing a single effect or one does not wish to practice such skills I would side with Al. Taking a cue from Tamariz -- nothing in your performance should be unplanned, especially those actions that appear spontaneous. perhaps[ the question should be, "for today's audience with declining experience in interpersonal communications, how important is eye contact?" I have little confidence that a young person today will even notice where you look.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-10-16 10:19, Al Schneider wrote: 2 very interseting ideas : - When you fool someone they are in a similiar position. They feel exposed - At the point the magic occurs for the audience, do not look at them The second one is curious because it seems more a way to avoid a prospective "bad" feedback than to create a magic atmosphere. It is like a exit solution ... but it can be a good solution until we'll find a better one... And if we don't succeed in doing it, Al's solution is very good Yes, a very interesting idea! |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-10-17 04:53, funsway wrote: I thing the opposite because communication (eye contact) seems to work with everybody. It seems to be a intrinsic element of human nature... |
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Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts
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I discovered this technique while workning at a magic shop. When showing a custoemr a trick, I would put the box on a counter behind me. Then I would show the trick to the customer. Instead of standng watchng the customer make up his mind to buy or not to buy, I would turn and look for the box. I would fumble a bit looking for the box leaving the customer alone to think of what they wanted to do. When doing this, the number of sales went way up. Interesting.
Al Schneider
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
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Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts
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Here is another observation that might be more of what Lawrence is thinking of. Most performers, after doing a false transfer move will freeze the hand under question. In my opinion that will attract attention to the hand. When I do such a transfer, I will move the hand a bit as if I am a bit nervous or wiggle it slightly in some way. The audience will notice this fidget and label it as some kind of nervous tick and label the motion as innocent.
Al Schneider
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
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Mb217 Inner circle 9691 Posts
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Great talk here.
I find it interesting that almost all of these points, I do. I happened upon all of them just by observation of the moments, more so than reading them in a book, which I happened to have done as well along the way here and there. 
I better understand these things every time I present an effect, and it fascinates me to no end as to how much spectators are at an extreme disadvantage, as you carefully re-structure the reality of the moments. You make it look like you're just doing a regular action and its interpreted as such, but with every added nuance you come to realize sets the spec more at ease and believing of what it looks like is going on but not all that actually is happening.
Understanding how the spec interprets allows you to secretly recreate the moments with a believable facade...sorta like a movie. That new show "Brain Games" also explains why all this is possible, and scientifically uses the dynamic magic of Apollo Robbins in great illustration of exactly what is happening from all perspectives and why.
Case in point: *I always appreciated Eric Mead's thoughts on all this as well. Everyone has that favorite professor that delivers the information so vividly and makes it real, makes it stick. Here Eric is doing all this stuff in the real world to great audience, *Beginning at the 5:40 mark. And I just love the tossing up of the coin at the 8:13 mark.  The guy is so casually hitting on all cylinders in great illustration of many of the points and concepts being talked about here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg0AoCXxwBs Oh and Al, you and others here might also enjoy the video from the beginning, quite interesting.
Have a great day everybody.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb
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Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts
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Mb217
It is interestng you applaude these principles for in the videos you present you bantly violate them. I would ask any member here to watch the videos you have posted. When you do your magic you stare at the audience with challenge in your eye. You are the antithesis of which I speak. Al Schneider
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
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Posted: Oct 10, 2013 05:18 pm 
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