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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts 
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Quote:
On 2013-10-31 17:45, Jonathan Townsend wrote: The fact that is an fake action can be natural is obviously not sufficient. It has to be logic in the sequence, but that is not sufficinet too. Some good moves in magic have reality in "ordinary actions". Some good moves seem natural and can be a simulation of an ordinary action that doesn't exist really because no layman does it this way (Elmsley count, shuttle pass ...) Conclusion? I don't have the answer and I haven't read it yet. |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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Jon,
You are referring to the Tourniquet and to Ramsay's Vanish. Both are False Take aiming at being seen by a large audience. This means that the initial hand remains virtually stationary after the take and that the swift move referred to by Al is done by the receiving hand. The Obliteration parenthesis can be the same as in a false put. Now I did an extensive study of the Tourniquet (Ramsay's vanish is only a variant on the use of gravity following a rotation gained from the taking thumb) and it is available to anyone sending me a PM with his email. Mickey, I'm as you know an especially great fan of your ROV, not only because you supply the burn without indulging in it. Also your feint of showing the coin again after it was placed in the left hand is phenomenal. There is no doubt in the mind of most of us that you are still the unarguable master of the Grivolas Palm (the real name of the ROV). This being said over the time more and more magicians try and emulate your supremacy and some of them by studying your work and your old video on the move. I could name Denis Behr and a few others... So, as much as I was against you publishing your technique (as discussed with you in Vegas years ago), I think that the time has come for you to publish it in details so that no one else does it before you do. You deserve to go down in history with a detailed description either on DVD or in writing or both for the ROV to be associated with your name like the Shuttle Pass or the Edge Grip are associated with David Roth's name. Think about it: you know that it's not because I want to know (I leave happily being entertained with techniques I'm not fully aware of) but I just feel that it's about the time for you to do it. Very few people will be able to match the quality of your performance anyways, but it will be stamped MICKEY SILVER for ever. I just hope that all these silver coins that you absorb turn into gold for you...
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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MICKEY SILVER Elite user Boston, Ma. 442 Posts
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Well ! thank you very much Lawrence, that statement really means a lot to me coming from you.
I couldn't agree more with you about finally revealing my secret in detail in the way I perform this move. This is certainly my intentions & one I have been moving forward with. It just amazes me that I have not as of yet met anyone to date that has actually picked up on the :TWO SECRET MOVES" that I execute to make look exactly like "ONE MOVE"......... My very reason for calling this official vanish of mine "THE MOVE"!! It is imperative to me that first everyone understands my CC factor. WHAT IS THE CC FACTOR? It is the fact that one hand and one hand alone actually "CONTOLS" and the other hand ("only that hand") actually "CREATES" .......... Exactly what hand "CONTROLS" what & when needs to be understood most of all. As equally as the other hand does that "CREATES". ...........There is a fine balance between my two hands that the audience doesn't see. REMEMBER: One hand " CONTROLS THE AUDIENCE" & The other hand "CREATES THE ILLUSION".............Turning these two moves into one move will allow you to create the most amazing vanish of a coin ever!!! The CC factor must be understood in order to even consider excecuting "THE MOVE" the way I do it and above all to keep the momentum of the "MOVES" going !!!!!! Entertaining ( "I MEAN REALLY ENTERTAINING" ) an entire audience with just one coin move is not easy , infact it sounds rediculars and literally scares the hell out of many magicians..However it is possible if you truly "UNDERSTAND THE SECRET" before you ever start to learn "THE ACTUAL MOVES"... MICKEY SILVER |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-01 14:19, MICKEY SILVER wrote: Mickey, You had explained me the role of the two hands in private in Vegas but had asked me to keep it for myself. Naturally I did but furthermore I could not perform anything coming close to the perfection you reached. Thanks for sharing this part with café members now. Be well Etienne
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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About the retention vanish :
A lot of magicians think that it is better to use a classic false transfer with a little misdirection (you must use a little dose of misdirection : looking at the spectator) than a retention vanish which put attention on the move. It is as we consider the "classic false transfer while looking at the spectator" as a psychological retention vanish : The spectator doesn't really see the transfer but perceive it. But the spectator doesn't remember it, he (she) only remember that the coin is in the Left hand. A psychological retention vanish? |
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Jumbopenny Loyal user Bay Area, Northern California USA 295 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-02 11:00, Jiceh wrote: Congratulations on understanding what I consider to be the Holy Grail of coin magic. Problem is you have to have an exceptional CP, but many magicians don't. Of those that do many don't have the proper misdirection skills. |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-10-30 17:10, Craig Ousterling wrote: In the same article in genii (p.33), there is an other very good sequence (fig. 8, 9 et 10). The magician executes theses moves : Fig 8 : The magician puts a silk in the left fist and pushes it into it with its right index Fig 9 : The magician steals the silk with the right hand (thumb-tip) while looking at the spectator Fig 10 : The magician puts its left fist (empty) up and looks at it intensely The next step is the revelation of the vanish In reality, because of the control of attention, the spectator sees only the steps 8 and 10 : The vanish is very effective. Tommy Wonder used a similar sequence (the principe is the same but the method is different) in his cups and balls routine (He puts the ball in his left hand and closes his hand / He taps the cups with his right hand and then steals the balls while he relaxes a little / Then he vanishes the ball - blowing it) : My "description" is very bad but the sequence is very good (from 0:40 to 0:48) :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzFu_IuK8-k |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6737 Posts
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Jiceh,
Your reference to Tom Stone's lecture is paramount. In his Penguin Live Lecture, Tom demonstrates that, in terms of attention 1) Up movements prevail over down movements 2) Forward movements prevail over backward movements 3) Forward movements prevail over down movements 4) Forward movements prevail over lateral movements 5) Up movements prevail over forward movements 6) Up movements prevail over lateral movements 7) Up movements prevail over forward movements This means in our little study that credibility can be added by bringing the left hand (supposedly holding the coin after the false transfer) UP and Forward, and the right hand down and backwards. The tugging of the sleeve supplies a good excuse to bring the left hand up and forward and the right hand back and down. This also means that, if following the procedures described by various posting magicians, the suspicion of the coin having remained into the other hand will dissolve for many subtle reasons: conditioning feint, proper gaze management, original distance between the hands, In Transit Action, speed management of the In Transit action, obliteration parenthesis with naturalistic finger movements, hands movements' spatial management, preventive doubt, creation of the magical moment looking at the audience. This finally means that, following Sun Tzu's Art of War, we do not challenge the audience with a visually perfect simulation, we attack the plan, that the audience hasn't yet even formed, to suspect the other hand. Thus there is no confrontation and magic can unfold but, as stated by Al, getting perceived as "a nice guy" is a fundamental misdirection. Actually Kenton Knepper's Rants into Rave is fully about this point: how to be perceived as a nice guy.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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Etienne, credibility of an action is imputed by reputation, context and congruence.
Is this character messing with me? Am I confident about following the process that's happening now? Did the character do anything that looked unusual? IMHO it's more a matter of not triggering confusion or distrust in ones actions. Following along with what others have written about directing attention, forward, upward, toward ... All seem useful when blocking out actions at that phase of designing a performance script.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-04 07:32, Lawrence O wrote: I thing I'm going to buy the Tom Stone Lecture (I haven't done it yet) because it must be (sure) a great one as all Tom Stone does. About what Al stated (getting perceived as "a nice guy" is a fundamental), this quote of Nate Leipzig gives a rather similar (same family) idea or direction : "The audience wants to know that they have been fooled by a gentleman." |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Lawrence O,
Thanks again for this very great topic! The question (what makes a vanish deceptive? The perfect simulation of a transfer or the misdirection around a false transfer ?) is fascinating and the ideas developped here in this topic are very exciting. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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@jiceh
Imagine watching a Roth routine, say his Purse and Glass or The Planet, but using the same body language as Mickey Silver. At least in my imagined Mickey-Roth performance the placements seem to get in the way of the mechanics instead of helping. What do you think?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-04 13:29, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Interesting and amazing question. I have to think about it. My first answer is that David Roth would be ridiculous if he moves like Mickey Silver because he is David Roth and because MS is Mickey Silver The 2 are great magicians. In addition, Mickey silver body language is very good when he uses it in his "one" coin routine. But using the same body language in a structured routine (MS routine are constructed too but in an other way because his routine looks like a one coin routine) can be against productive because it will puts ponctation at the wrong places (but I'm not sure of that because I don't know well Mickey's magic). In reality, it will puts too much ponctuation IMHO... I hope I gave you a bit of answer (I'm not sure to really understand the question : When you talks about body language here, do you mean the way MS moves (a little "dance" or choregraphy) or the way he buit his routine (hesitation, gaze, conditionning, moves in the space...). I hope I'm clear in my writing but I'm not sure of that... One last thing : I have a GREAT admiration for Mickey Silver's magic. The few I know of him fascinates me. What about my answer? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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So far it seems we agree that both guys do amazing coin magic, have credible coin transfers, can make coins vanish and have very different performing characters.
What then makes Mickey's transfer credible? Is that the same as what makes Roth's transfers credible? From that, what makes anyone's transfers credible?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Lawrens Godon Inner circle France 1114 Posts
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Being great coin men, they have also strong personalities.
Imho, this is why a mundane action, like a transfer of a coin isn't perceived as important by audience members... One is captivated by what is happening, hooked I should say. The way they handle the coins is directly linked to their character. Add to this the fact they both developped incredibly deceptive coin sleight, and voilà ! Now I think that the hard part is to find and developp a personal manipulative hability (idiosyncrasy) ^^ |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27482 Posts
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Quote: I agree
The way they handle the coins is directly linked to their character. Quote: not sure - as in both Roth routines the coins are transferred (really) into the other hand.
Add to this the fact they both developped incredibly deceptive coin sleight, and voilà ! Quote: IMHO the Roth routine does not use anything noticeably idiosyncratic at the moment of the transfer - so I'm not sure about that either.
Now I think that the hard part is to find and developp a personal manipulative hability (idiosyncrasy) ^^ I don't know that replacing "credible" with "idiosyncratic" gets us closer to specific things one can do to increase how sure the audience is of the coin being transferred into the other hand.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Lawrens Godon Inner circle France 1114 Posts
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Quote:
I don't know that replacing "credible" with "idiosyncratic" gets us closer to specific things one can do to increase how sure the audience is of the coin being transferred into the other hand. Specifically, one could work on the set of characteristics specific to one's individual character. Isolating personal traits and behavior, and sneak inside the "dirty" work... It's in this way that I can see the importance on "be natural"... |
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funsway Eternal Order old things in new ways - new things in old ways 10314 Posts
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Isn't a basic issue here that of making an actual transfer credible as a foundation for any later false transfer?
It is fine to suggest that a coin is picked up in the right hand and transferred to the left so that the right can pick up a wand, but ... why not just pick up the coin with the left hand in the first place? What is the justification for the transfer? If the coin is picked up from a pile on the right side, transferred to the left and the coin placed into a cup on the left side it might seem justified -- especially if you have actually made this move earlier. Of course, this suggests that it must be possible to pick up a coin in the left hand, display it on the palm, close the hand -- then later open it to reveal the vanish. Can you do that? If not, why not learn? (yes, the wand or other "cause of the magic" may still be desirable) Thus, the use of any Transfer type vanish has a function, but it is secondary to the needs of the effect and natural movements. From must follow function or something.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-05 07:41, funsway wrote: As Darwin Ortiz brilliantly explains in his book "Designing Miracles", if a move looks logic at one instant (the coin is picked up in the right hand and transferred to the left so that the right can pick up a wand), it is a good start. The whole picture (why not just pick up the coin with the left hand in the first place?) is important too ... but because the move seems to be a logical one when you execute it, the spectators accept it (they don't analyse the logical aspect of the whole picture). Analyse the "whole picture" is a reconstruction process (you do it when you try to find the method if you are a magician, for example). |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-11-04 16:50, Lawrens Godon wrote: I agree too |
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » What makes a false transfer credible ? (7 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Nov 1, 2013 08:25 am 
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